Porsche's Chief Designer is a Chinese??!!

[jhungary]

Some posts are so egregiously illogical, non-critical, non-analytical, non-everything, that it would be immoral not to comment. But I do admit that it does feel like Sisyphus at times.

lol even Chinese member here consider him a joke Most of the time. You can try and figure out his sanity just by looking at comment on both side of the camp.

Lol, i lost my patient with him a long time ago, you can take him on if you want..good luck

snip

Then i guess, in your case, you will be 有爺生無乸教!!

it's only important on the male side haha, hence you are you

 

[jhungary]

Interesting.

This is the exact opposite of Jewish culture, where "Jewishness" is transferred exclusively through the mother (at least in the Orthodox Jewish interpretation).

Both views make sense. Patrilineal (Y-chromosome, at least for boys), and matrilineal (mitochondrial DNA).

Well, i can tell you this, his word is literally bullshxt. Don't be fooled by him

I have been living in China and hong kong for over 20 years, very familiarize with the Chinese tradition. I never even heard that you are ethnic Chinese only if your father is a Chinese. If my chinese history did not fail me, i remember that china don't have the same view in the last 2000 years

Chinese nationality law require 1 side of the parent (Either the father or mother) at the time to be Chinese Citizen. Not the father side. he is saying this simply wanted to denial the right that i call myself a Chinese. Nothing more.

Article 4: Any person born in China whose parents are both Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national shall have Chinese nationality.

GovHK: Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China

Japan on the otherhand do have a law require the father have to be Japanese to the child be called Japanese. So wholegrain probably is of Japanese Decentant, make sense as Japan Rules Taiwan for more than 60 years. most of the last generation Taiwanese are Japan related or Japan Decentant

There is a old saying in China very much applies to him perfectly.

信佢一半都死

Translated to "You will die if you believe half what he said"

 

[Wholegrain]

Well, i can tell you this, his word is literally bullshxt. Don't be fooled by him

I have been living in China and hong kong for over 20 years, very familiarize with the Chinese tradition. I never even heard that you are ethnic Chinese only if your father is a Chinese. If my chinese history did not fail me, i remember that china don't have the same view in the last 2000 years

Chinese nationality law require 1 side of the parent (Either the father or mother) at the time to be Chinese Citizen. Not the father side. he is saying this simply wanted to denial the right that i call myself a Chinese. Nothing more.



GovHK: Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China

Japan on the otherhand do have a law require the father have to be Japanese to the child be called Japanese. So wholegrain probably is of Japanese Decentant, make sense as Japan Rules Taiwan for more than 60 years. most of the last generation Taiwanese are Japan related or Japan Decentant

There is a old saying in China very much applies to him perfectly.

信佢一半都死

Translated to "You will die if you believe half what he said"

I said nothing about nationality. What I said about ethnicity is fact. Descent and surnames is traced though the paternal line. The hometown (place of clan origin) is from the father too. During the Qing dynasty, if your father was a Manchu bannermen the child was a manchu. In southeast asia the Chinese diaspora was mostly Chinese males marrying native women. If another ethnicity married a Chinese woman then her children wouldn't be considered Chinese. In Taiwan much of the population was converted to Han by men from Fujian marrying aboriginal women. Traditional Chinese culture is patrilineal and patriarchal. Traditional Jia Pu (genealogical record) record family lineage by your father's side through the paternal line and not the mother's.

All non Han minorities in China have Chinese citizenship. The current government of China formulated its laws on communist ideas of gender equality in every aspect at least superficially and not traditional Chinese culture. If an Imperial government was still in power with laws drawn from Confucius i guarantee that they would not be as liberal as the CPC is regarding nationality from either parent.

Polygamy is part of traditional Chinese culture and now its banned in China. Cross cousin marriage is allowed in Chinese culture but now its banned too.

 

[Developereo]

Well, i can tell you this, his word is literally bullshxt.

I think his comment was about popular cultural tradition, not law. Now, obviously, I don't know the details of Chinese cultural traditions, but the emphasis towards the male is true in many patriarchal societies.

Even in the West, it is usually the woman who changes her surname after marriage to the man's.

 

[jhungary]

I think his comment was about popular cultural tradition, not law. Now, obviously, I don't know the details of Chinese cultural traditions, but the emphasis towards the male is true in many patriarchal societies.

Even in the West, it is usually the woman who changes her surname after marriage to the man's.

depend on which "West" you are talking about.

The Hispanic and Iberian part of the world usually merge Surname and will not simply takes the surname.

Say my father name is Estefan Sanchez Rodriguez Manlolo, where Rodriguez Manlolo is his surname, the first refer to his mother maiden name where the 2nd surname refer to his father surname.

Most Hispanic country would commonly have 4 or even 5 names, so does some part of Canada and some part of Europe

And increasingly, people do not takes the marriage name and hence today there are an option of Ms. to choose from in any governmental from. Well.......as I said many time, we aren't living in 1700 anymore.......

Guess which famous actor was named Ramón Antonio Gerardo Estévez at birth??

And what he was saying is not about Male Dominant Society, he is literally saying the ethnicity of a person is based on the male paternal side of the family. Male dominant society is one of the feature of Chinese society, this I agree. However, the ethnical (genetic) side of the story were never heard of.

The reason I put forward in law (or Nationality) is the base line for comparison of the definition of "Chinese" In the past, you are an ethnic Chinese when both of your parent are ethnic Chinese (not just father side), you are Chinese if only you are a Chinese Blood but that was like 2-3000 years ago. Back then, they do not have the condition/requirement of mixed race, once you do (of mixed race), then you are a seed of a foreigner. Because you would not look the same.

Down here is some good read, if you understand Chinese
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/中国人#.E5.AE.9A.E7.BE.A9
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/華人

If Chinese is too hard for you, you can try this if you want to know more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhonghua_minzu#History

The term 華人 (Ethnic Chinese) coming from the term Great Chinese People (華夏&#20154.

Here is the Chinese Definition of 華人 in Chinese Dictionary

華夏人的简称。华夏人是以炎黄为始祖、祖居中国之地的民族之称，是文化认同的概念，也是一种血源认同的概念

When you translated them to Chinese, it said

Ethnic Chinese - short for Greater Chinese Ethnics, based on the Greatest Ancestor (炎黄 - Cannot translate this to English), the name is for any group that reside in Greater China, which is a confirmation of Cultural value (Of Chinese Culture), but also is a confirmation of Blood by definition.

Basically, people who reside in China, of Chinese blood (Descendant of 炎&#40644, then it can be called Ethnic Chinese.

However, up until the point Ethnic Chinese reside in China left China because of the Qing Dynasty will not called themselves Ethnics Chinese anymore as the term "Ethnic Chinese" was twisted by the Qing - which is not the descendant of 炎黄 started call themselves Chinese. Hence those Original Ethnic Chinese who reside in China left for places like Singapore, Australia or America will call themselves 唐人 (Translation : Tong Dynasty Descendant) as a form of Protests

Hence when you go down to China town and you ask any Chinese what China town called in Chinese they will all answer 唐人街 (China town - from the word Tong Dynasty Descendant) but not華人街 - which literally mean Street of Ethnic Chinese.

It does not change until the Western Culture impact China after Qing Dynasty, the definition was expanded to non-Greater China ethnic (Not necessarily the son of 炎&#40644 or mixed race can also be called Chinese, if the ancestor were a Chinese Descendant.

And today, the definition of Chinese is even more lax. Basically you can call yourselves a Chinese if you look Chinese and have a Chinese name.

Antony Wong Chau-sang 黃秋生

Michelle Lee(Li) Jia Xan 李嘉欣

Michael Wong Man-tak 王敏德

While common Chinese consider the first 2 Chinese, the last one is not, but the fact is they are all of mixed race.

Antony Wong Chau-sang (Born Anthony Perry - British Father, HK Chinese Mother)
Michelle Lee(Li) Jia Xan (Born Michelle Monique Reis -Portugese Father, HK Chinese Mother)
Michael Wong Man-tak (Born Michael Fitzgerald Wong - HK father, Dutch/French Mother)

Ironically contrary to what Wholegrain say, the person with a HK Chinese Father is actually considered a foreigner to his fellow Chinese, Ironic, isn't it??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Reis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Wong_(Hong_Kong_actor)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wong_(actor)

 

[Wholegrain]

Formerly in southeast asia and in Taiwan when it contained alot of aboriginals, you were ethnic Chinese if your father was Chinese. End of story. Thats how the 峇峇娘惹 baba nyonya Chinese were created in Malaysia and Indonesia. Even though they spoke Malay and adopted Malay customs. And the same with mixing with ethnic minorites in China before the Communists took over. You were your father's ethnicity. Go look at how the Banner system during the Qing worked. Descent traced through patrilineal line and ethnicity gets inherited that way too.

There are non Muslim Hui descended from Arabs and Persians in Quanzhou Fujian through the paternal line and thats why they identify as Hui.

 

[jhungary]

Formerly in southeast asia and in Taiwan when it contained alot of aboriginals, you were ethnic Chinese if your father was Chinese. End of story. Thats how the 峇峇娘惹 baba nyonya Chinese were created in Malaysia and Indonesia. Even though they spoke Malay and adopted Malay customs. And the same with mixing with ethnic minorites in China before the Communists took over. You were your father's ethnicity. Go look at how the Banner system during the Qing worked. Descent traced through patrilineal line and ethnicity gets inherited that way too.

There are non Muslim Hui descended from Arabs and Persians in Quanzhou Fujian through the paternal line and thats why they identify as Hui.

Did my previous post already said Qing's definition of "Ethnic" Chinese is not really the definition of "Ethnic" Chinese??

Qing's definition of Chinese is not widely used as part of Ethnic Chinese who are descendant of our greatest ancestor, hence not 炎黄子孙. The definition of Chinese during Qing Dynasty is "Han People" 漢族. By no mean they are ethnic Chinese. The original term are 華夏人. Qing Dynasty have a different set of "Ethnic Chinese" then the rest of 5000 years Chinese History.

中华文化 - 维基百科
炎黄 - 维基百科

Keep posting, you are just showing people who understand Chinese History how gullible you are. You may be able to fool people with zip Chinese History background, but to fool a person like me, you need to work harder mate.

I now seriously doubt you even is of Han Chinese to begin with, why you keep using the Qing Dynasty as reference? As Qing dynasty was blasted to beyond recognition in term of Chinese History. Either all you know is Qing Dynasty or you are Native Manchurian. Seriously thinking it's the latter

 

[Wholegrain]

Did my previous post already said Qing's definition of "Ethnic" Chinese is not really the definition of "Ethnic" Chinese??

Qing's definition of Chinese is not widely used as part of Ethnic Chinese who are descendant of our greatest ancestor, hence not 炎黄子孙. The definition of Chinese during Qing Dynasty is "Han People" 漢族. By no mean they are ethnic Chinese. The original term are 華夏人. Qing Dynasty have a different set of "Ethnic Chinese" then the rest of 5000 years Chinese History.

中华文化 - 维基百科
炎黄 - 维基百科

Keep posting, you are just showing people who understand Chinese History how gullible you are. You may be able to fool people with zip Chinese History background, but to fool a person like me, you need to work harder mate.

I now seriously doubt you even is of Han Chinese to begin with, why you keep using the Qing Dynasty as reference? As Qing dynasty was blasted to beyond recognition in term of Chinese History. Either all you know is Qing Dynasty or you are Native Manchurian. Seriously thinking it's the latter

Han=huaxia. I'm not sure wth you are trying to say. The people and idea stayed the same, with different names.

Many Chinese forged their genealogical records to make it look like they descend from Huangdi in the paternal line. The Sui and Tang dynasty Emperors purposely emphasized they were Han in the paternal line because there was Xianbei flood on their maternal side, with the Tang emperors claiming descent from Laozi.

 

[gambit]

That's a trite condemnation. Most countries in the world do not manufacture their defence equipment from scratch and have this vulnerability. Until recently, and at the time of the Soviet collapse, China did not have the capability for advanced indigenous military tech, so it is puerile to taunt the Chinese on that score.

Riiiight...And the Chinese saying there is no such thing as 'American tech' and only immigrant tech is very intellectual and insightful.

 

[Developereo]

Riiiight...And the Chinese saying there is no such thing as 'American tech' and only immigrant tech is very intellectual and insightful.

I haven't read the whole thread but, if anyone is saying such, that is also stupid.
America has earned its place today by the brains and brawn of all its people and, without regard to political correctness, the vast majority of those people were white.

 

[jhungary]

Han=huaxia. I'm not sure wth you are trying to say. The people and idea stayed the same, with different names.

Many Chinese forged their genealogical records to make it look like they descend from Huangdi in the paternal line. The Sui and Tang dynasty Emperors purposely emphasized they were Han in the paternal line because there was Xianbei flood on their maternal side, with the Tang emperors claiming descent from Laozi.

I beg to differ the bolded part.

Assume you can read Chinese
炎黄子孙

华人

除汉朝外，华人从未自称汉人，一般以当时的国名自称，比如“宋人”、“明人”；唐人，清代时海外华人的自称，因为他们并不认为自己是清人；中华民族，指居住在中国的各民族，孙中山首先提出的政治概念。支那人，本是佛經翻譯，在日本一度流行，後被用于贬义。

Infact when Sun Yet Sin trying to rally and reunited the Chinese Civilization, he claim the 5 different races of Chinese Which is called "A_republic_of_five_races"

Five Races Under One Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which you can see, Han and Manchu are 2 different race under the same banner. And that's after 1911

In fact, the only time when Manchuian consider themselves as Ethnic Chinese is Qing Dynasty and had never done that before nor since then. So.......simply speaking

汉人=华人
汉= 華夏

Has NEVER existed until 1911. But you are talking about Qing dynasty, so you are wrong...

 

[Wholegrain]

I beg to differ the bolded part.

Assume you can read Chinese
炎黄子孙

华人



Infact when Sun Yet Sin trying to rally and reunited the Chinese Civilization, he claim the 5 different races of Chinese Which is called "A_republic_of_five_races"

Five Races Under One Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which you can see, Han and Manchu are 2 different race under the same banner. And that's after 1911

In fact, the only time when Manchuian consider themselves as Ethnic Chinese is Qing Dynasty and had never done that before nor since then. So.......simply speaking

汉人=华人
汉= 華夏

Has NEVER existed until 1911. But you are talking about Qing dynasty, so you are wrong...

Han was used during the Qing dynasty. Han bannermen were called Han jun. during the Yuan dynasty the former subjects of the Jin dynasty were called Han. It was used before 1911.

 

[jhungary]

Han was used during the Qing dynasty. Han bannermen were called Han jun. during the Yuan dynasty the former subjects of the Jin dynasty were called Han. It was used before 1911.

I never said the term HAN was not used before 1911. Did you read Chinese and did you even see what did i type in reference to Chinese in my last post??

除汉朝外，华人从未自称汉人，一般以当时的国名自称，比如“宋人”、“明人”；唐人，清代时海外华人的自称，因为他们并不认为自己是清人；中华民族，指居住在中国的各民族，孙中山首先提出的政治概念。支那人，本是佛經翻譯，在日本一度流行，後 被用于贬义。

Ethnic Chinese did call themselves HAN PEOPLE in Han Dynasty. Before Qing and Republic of China, Chinese was never refer to themselves as Han, they usually refer themselves with respect to the dynasty they belong to. Of course during han Dynasty, Chinese call themselves Han

However, what you said was

Han=huaxia

in Chinese 汉= 華夏

This part is wrong in any given way.

Han is a part of Huaxia, part of Han is of Huaxia in the warring period. Indeed Huaxia was in a sense the origin of Han, but by no mean they are the same. With Mapping interpretation this is Han

And this is Huaxia

And since republic of China and PRC formed, indeed even in late Qing Dynasty, Han is used to represent Huaxia in modern usage, however, this concept has NEVER materialised in all other era of Chinese History. To say Han is Huaxia, it's stupid or nonsense in the sense of ancient Chinese History. in ancient Chinese History, Huaxia is the origin of Han, in term of actual footing, Huaxia is a lot smaller than Han, but Huaxia has built the cultural value as of today Han. they ARE NOT EQUAL

Warring States period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Huaxia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Han Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Wholegrain]

I never said the term HAN was not used before 1911. Did you read Chinese and did you even see what did i type in reference to Chinese in my last post??

除汉朝外，华人从未自称汉人，一般以当时的国名自称，比如“宋人”、“明人”；唐人，清代时海外华人的自称，因为他们并不认为自己是清人；中华民族，指居住在中国的各民族，孙中山首先提出的政治概念。支那人，本是佛經翻譯，在日本一度流行，後 被用于贬义。

Ethnic Chinese did call themselves HAN PEOPLE in Han Dynasty. Before Qing and Republic of China, Chinese was never refer to themselves as Han, they usually refer themselves with respect to the dynasty they belong to. Of course during han Dynasty, Chinese call themselves Han

However, what you said was

in Chinese 汉= 華夏

This part is wrong in any given way.

Han is a part of Huaxia, part of Han is of Huaxia in the warring period. Indeed Huaxia was in a sense the origin of Han, but by no mean they are the same. With Mapping interpretation this is Han

And this is Huaxia

And since republic of China and PRC formed, indeed even in late Qing Dynasty, Han is used to represent Huaxia in modern usage, however, this concept has NEVER materialised in all other era of Chinese History. To say Han is Huaxia, it's stupid or nonsense in the sense of ancient Chinese History. in ancient Chinese History, Huaxia is the origin of Han, in term of actual footing, Huaxia is a lot smaller than Han, but Huaxia has built the cultural value as of today Han. they ARE NOT EQUAL

Warring States period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Huaxia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Han Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whoops I misread the English, not the Chinese. I thought you said Han instead of Has.

Has NEVER existed until 1911. But you are talking about Qing dynasty, so you are wrong...

 

[Arya Desa]

American railway was built by the Chinese too

Lol you sir are a troll. In Canada, they remember building the railway too and aren't happy about it.