POLL: Should China donate J-16 strike jets to Russia as foreign aid to counter Anglo hegemony?

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I think so because:

1. J-16 is based on Su-30 which is a platform Russians are familiar with and trained on.

2. J-16 is large enough to carry stand off missiles which minimizes attrition.

3. J-16 has state of the art AESA which makes it more survivable than current crop of Russian Flanker type jets.

Shenyang J-16 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@Beny Karachun @sammuel @gambit @Oldman1 @mike2000 is back @Ali_Baba @Viet @nahtanbob

 

[applesauce]

no.

russia has its own jets, the VKS is barely using them and those it does use, is used badly, having a better jet is not going to help.

also china cannot support russia's position of annexing parts of Ukraine. one of the central tenets of chinese foreign policy is respecting territorial integrity of recognized nations. russia can go de-nazifying ukraine but it went too far when it annexed parts of Ukraine.

as such, while geopolitical realities means china will stay friendly with russia and still trade with it, but china will stay neutral in this war, which is its current position, unless russian territory itself is being invaded by nato. in which case nato can expect full chinese support for russia up to and including PVA version 2.0

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

no.

russia has its own jets, the VKS is barely using them and those it does use, is used badly, having a better jet is not going to help.

also china cannot support russia's position of annexing parts of Ukraine. one of the central tenets of chinese foreign policy is respecting territorial integrity of recognized nations. russia can go de-nazifying ukraine but it went too far when it annexed parts of Ukraine.

as such, while geopolitical realities means china will stay friendly with russia and still trade with it, but china will stay neutral in this war, which is its current position, unless russian territory itself is being invaded by nato. in which case nato can expect full chinese support for russia up to and including PVA version 2.0

Annexation is common. Russia annexed Konigsberg. Russia annexed South Sakhalin. So what? Might makes right.

 

[applesauce]

Annexation is common. Russia annexed Konigsberg. Russia annexed South Sakhalin. So what? Might makes right.

no. im talking about the position of the chinese government. as a matter of principle china does not support annexations and they've stated this many many times, you might think annexations are fantastic but you don't represent the chinese government.

and again, a better jet does nothing for the VKS, they don't actually lack planes but what good is AESA when the russians are using a bunch of their latest jets to lob dumb bombs while flying within manpad range? their SU-35s and such is already much superior to anything Ukraine operates yet the Ukrainians continue to be able to fly as the russian still have not be able to shut them down.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

and again, a better jet does nothing for the VKS, they don't actually lack planes but what good is AESA when the russians are using a bunch of their latest jets to lob dumb bombs while flying within manpad range?

There is no evidence of your claim.

 

[Hack-Hook]

There is no evidence of your claim.

Sun is evidence for sun
if its night just wait several hour and you see the evidence

 

[applesauce]

There is no evidence of your claim.

dude, a 10 second google or baidu will tell you that Ukrainian jets are still flying though not in great numbers.

heck go look up russia's own stories about jet usage and see that they basically don't fly in western ukraine and most of the usage has been dumb bombs with some notable missile usages most from standoff ranges.

i got no particular love for Ukraine, but you cant tell me russian performance in this war hasn't been garbage. in desert storm 90%+ of iraqi power generation was bombed out by the us in the first week. i dont expect same performance or speed since Ukraine is much bigger but russia is only now getting to it...11 months into the war this is weak at best.

sad part is they fully have the equipment to storm Ukraine in the first month, they could have gone in with gloves off, declared war, get the numbers needed, put those tu-95 and tu-160 into action, centers of communication, resource and power should have been wiped

also, what modern military on earth don't have basic secure radios for a large chunk of its troops in the opening months of the war???

想着杀鸡儆猴，结果跟鸡打的有来有回

 

[REhorror]

Tbh, China should do more to support Russia.
If Russia falls, China falls.

This is some Wei - Shu - Wu going right now, with Shu and Wu being Russia and China.

 

[applesauce]

Tbh, China should do more to support Russia.
If Russia falls, China falls.

This is some Wei - Shu - Wu going right now, with Shu and Wu being Russia and China.

russia isnt gonna fall. if Ukraine actual invades russia proper then russia will have to declare war, as crappy as russia's performance has been, ukraine will not be able to handle a russia in a state of total war, especially when they are the ones on the attack.
if NATO helps Ukraine to push into russia, sending its own troops, then they can expect, first large chinese material supports, and if russia still cant handle it, then PVA 2.0. otherwise russia will go nuclear(Ukraine still loses), that is something china would not want.

if they try the political way (aka removing putin)... the second most popular political party in russia is the communist party,, who happen to be even more nationalistic and pro-china than putin's russia united party.

 

[jhungary]

dude, a 10 second google or baidu will tell you that Ukrainian jets are still flying though not in great numbers.

heck go look up russia's own stories about jet usage and see that they basically don't fly in western ukraine and most of the usage has been dumb bombs with some notable missile usages most from standoff ranges.

i got no particular love for Ukraine, but you cant tell me russian performance in this war hasn't been garbage. in desert storm 90%+ of iraqi power generation was bombed out by the us in the first week. i dont expect same performance or speed since Ukraine is much bigger but russia is only now getting to it...11 months into the war this is weak at best.

sad part is they fully have the equipment to storm Ukraine in the first month, they could have gone in with gloves off, declared war, get the numbers needed, put those tu-95 and tu-160 into action, centers of communication, resource and power should have been wiped

also, what modern military on earth don't have basic secure radios for a large chunk of its troops in the opening months of the war???

想着杀鸡儆猴，结果跟鸡打的有来有回

The Russian have no hope at all even if we push back the clock to 24 Feb and redo the whole invasion. There are 2 major problem for Russia in this war.

1.) 200,000 troop is NOT ENOUGH to invade, let alone occupy the objective Russia wanted.
2.) Russia Logisitic turns out to be shit.

On the other hand, 200,000 is probably the maximum troop Russia can deploy to Ukraine, given the fact that they only have 900,000 troop in active service, and you need 2 rotation. So 200,000 in Ukraine, 200,000 Train for Ukraine to replace the troop they deploy. Which left 500,000 troop safeguard the entire Russian border, which is probably just stretching it if they don't post anyone in Chinese-Russian border as Russian border is huge.

Also, Russia cannot dip into their reserve in peace time, if they do that, the US and Ukrainian would know something is up, and prepare accordingly. But when you look at the different side, even if they can "Silently" mobilise Russian Reserve, they don't have enough infrastructure to support anything more than 200,000. That's why they have problem now to begin with, that's they can't even supply the 200,000 troop they had in theatre, doing more troop will only worsen the problem. The Russian needs time to move stash and build infrastructure (like service road or airport) all the way in Western Russia and in Belarus, that cannot be done in 1 or 2 or even 3 years.

I was watching the entire situation before the war, me and many military punters like me also think before the war Russia is NOT going to invade, because they don't have enough troop to do that, and the way they position their troop is destined to failed. Which is why many people, including the Ukrainian high command, did not see an imminent invasion, because that Russian troop deployment probably throw out the US top brass. If they weren't performing that badly, it would actually be a perfect pre-war set up, Russian position is that bad. Many Military analyst would agree, if Russia original aim is to take Ukraine Soil East of Dnipro, they should have only assault from North via Belarus and South via Crimea, there are no point to start a Kharkiv offensive.

On the other hand, VKS can't really do much because Ukraine Air Defence is near peer, and Russia don't have aircraft or drone like EA-18G or J-16 to do E-Dub, which mean if they fly anything into Ukrainian airspace, they are going to expect high casualty because you will need to do iron hand the old fashion way, send up a decoy and hope it didn't get shot before you shoot the SAM down, it may have work in Vietnam (even tho we still need ECM pod for Bolo mission) it won't work with Ukrainian Tor and S-300 couple with US intelligence. Tu-95 or Blackjack would probably be doing what they were doing now, which is stay outside Ukraine airspace and lob missile.

 

[Beast]

@waz @LeGenD

This troll is back with troll thread. Please close this thread and give him a warning.

 

[applesauce]

The Russian have no hope at all even if we push back the clock to 24 Feb and redo the whole invasion. There are 2 major problem for Russia in this war.

1.) 200,000 troop is NOT ENOUGH to invade, let alone occupy the objective Russia wanted.
2.) Russia Logisitic turns out to be shit.

On the other hand, 200,000 is probably the maximum troop Russia can deploy to Ukraine, given the fact that they only have 900,000 troop in active service, and you need 2 rotation. So 200,000 in Ukraine, 200,000 Train for Ukraine to replace the troop they deploy. Which left 500,000 troop safeguard the entire Russian border, which is probably just stretching it if they don't post anyone in Chinese-Russian border as Russian border is huge.

Also, Russia cannot dip into their reserve in peace time, if they do that, the US and Ukrainian would know something is up, and prepare accordingly. But when you look at the different side, even if they can "Silently" mobilise Russian Reserve, they don't have enough infrastructure to support anything more than 200,000. That's why they have problem now to begin with, that's they can't even supply the 200,000 troop they had in theatre, doing more troop will only worsen the problem. The Russian needs time to move stash and build infrastructure (like service road or airport) all the way in Western Russia and in Belarus, that cannot be done in 1 or 2 or even 3 years.

I was watching the entire situation before the war, me and many military punters like me also think before the war Russia is NOT going to invade, because they don't have enough troop to do that, and the way they position their troop is destined to failed. Which is why many people, including the Ukrainian high command, did not see an imminent invasion, because that Russian troop deployment probably throw out the US top brass. If they weren't performing that badly, it would actually be a perfect pre-war set up, Russian position is that bad. Many Military analyst would agree, if Russia original aim is to take Ukraine Soil East of Dnipro, they should have only assault from North via Belarus and South via Crimea, there are no point to start a Kharkiv offensive.

On the other hand, VKS can't really do much because Ukraine Air Defence is near peer, and Russia don't have aircraft or drone like EA-18G or J-16 to do E-Dub, which mean if they fly anything into Ukrainian airspace, they are going to expect high casualty because you will need to do iron hand the old fashion way, send up a decoy and hope it didn't get shot before you shoot the SAM down, it may have work in Vietnam (even tho we still need ECM pod for Bolo mission) it won't work with Ukrainian Tor and S-300 couple with US intelligence. Tu-95 or Blackjack would probably be doing what they were doing now, which is stay outside Ukraine airspace and lob missile.

1. 200k is not enough, which is why i said russia should have declared war off the bat. it would have allowed immediate use of all available professional and trained conscripts, the initial 200-300k can go in first but be immediately followed up a at least a few hundred k more over the course of a month, and allows them to begin mobilization immediately and all those new conscripted troops would have been ready to go months ago. there were many reports that even the initial professional units that went in were in fact well under manned, because their default expectation was that major action like this means war and thus the infantry positions in their BTGs would be filled by conscripts...but its a special operation so those positions were never filled leading to dumb undermanned and un-supported armor charges and the subsequent poor performance and now stalemate as ukraine calls up ever more people and more western arms.

those "quiet" borders like the one with Kazakhstan (their longest border neighbor) and the one with china(the second longest border neighbor) can be lightly guarded, manned mostly by police. in fact vast majority of russia's land borders are more or less safe from invasion or potentially needing large military action, only in the west does it face nato. in fact, due to nuclear arms, i think they could leave purely police on all borders and be fine in the short term(of course that limits actions but hey war comes first).

2. russia logistics is shit. you wont find me disagreeing. but again, something that can be solved with a war declaration...well not solved, but at least band-aided. russia is still on a civilian economy.and if the war was quick people might not even have noticed.

3. ukrainian air defence for a long time in this war runs basically the same gear that russia has but like.. the older version, they should know how to suppress it. but you're right, they barely have any EW capabilities and the Ukrainians are cued by nato. they do seem to have adapted some what, using drones and such to try and bait out the missiles. still, fine if they wanna lob missiles, but dang, use them earlier. its like the VKs doesn't exists and even now barely exists .

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

1. 200k is not enough, which is why i said russia should have declared war off the bat. it would have allowed immediate use of all available professional and trained conscripts, the initial 200-300k can go in first but be immediately followed up a at least a few hundred k more over the course of a month, and allows them to begin mobilization immediately and all those new conscripted troops would have been ready to go months ago. there were many reports that even the initial professional units that went in were in fact well under manned, because their default expectation was that major action like this means war and thus the infantry positions in their BTGs would be filled by conscripts...but its a special operation so those positions were never filled leading to dumb undermanned and un-supported armor charges and the subsequent poor performance and now stalemate as ukraine calls up ever more people and more western arms.

those "quiet" borders like the one with Kazakhstan (their longest border neighbor) and the one with china(the second longest border neighbor) can be lightly guarded, manned mostly by police. in fact vast majority of russia's land borders are more or less safe from invasion or potentially needing large military action, only in the west does it face nato. in fact, due to nuclear arms, i think they could leave purely police on all borders and be fine in the short term(of course that limits actions but hey war comes first).

2. russia logistics is shit. you wont find me disagreeing. but again, something that can be solved with a war declaration...well not solved, but at least band-aided. russia is still on a civilian economy.and if the war was quick people might not even have noticed.

3. ukrainian air defence for a long time in this war runs basically the same gear that russia has but like.. the older version, they should know how to suppress it. but you're right, they barely have any EW capabilities and the Ukrainians are cued by nato. they do seem to have adapted some what, using drones and such to try and bait out the missiles. still, fine if they wanna lob missiles, but dang, use them earlier. its like the VKs doesn't exists and even now barely exists .

War is bad for standard of living. It disrupts R&D, economy, production. Russia will never have a war.

 

[applesauce]

War is bad for standard of living. It disrupts R&D, economy, production. Russia will never have a war.

and short war is much better than a forever "special operation"

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

and short war is much better than a forever "special operation"

War can never be short. Every day there is war since dawn of humanity 200,000 years ago.