Politicisation of Indian military

[satyamev]

You really should consult a professional. This loss of memory could become limiting.

already effected my social and professional life.
I go into others houses thinking its mine , sorry to "bakra kishto mein "

 

[Joe Shearer]

We even have a certain community in India which refuses to stand for the national anthem , can't recall which it is.
The courts have ruled in their favor.

You really should consult a professional. This loss of memory could become limiting.

already effected my social and professional life.
I go into others houses thinking its mine , sorry to "bakra kishto mein "

 

[Paitoo]

You are a good person but I must ask, what are those other relevant issues ?

Many, including other points that you mentioned. But this 15 lakh thing is a non starter.

1. The atmosphere of hate in the country. Right wing people getting away with blatant hate speech. What do we intend to achieve with these divisions? Do the authorities have no idea of the havoc this can play with internal security, even if they don't care about assigning 2nd class status to a community?
2. Covid mismanagement
3. Zero difference in grassroots level corruption
4. Perceived increase in crony capitalism
5. Creation of cult persona around Modi. Isn't cult persona what BJP supporters hated most in the Congress?
6. Poor level of political discourse
7. Weakening of institutions
8. No improvement in economic indicators
9. No difference in the lives of the poorest
10. Shutting up and intimidating your critics through IT cell
11. Creating definitions of patriotism

 

[jamahir]

Muslims are in a bind as islam is strictly against idolatry. While hindus associate the country with a mother not goddess.

Sure, not a goddess at all :

And can you respond to point# 3 in my post# 14 ?

And if you keep bickering over nationalism elements when will you begin speaking of a borderless humanity on Earth where the idea of Nation State has dissolved and militaries have been disbanded ?

But these are the molehills on which 3rd world countries waste their energy.

1. Then let's for instance end the extreme Capitalism and other socio-economic wrongs due to which 350,000+ Indian farmers suicided just between 1995 and 2015.

2. Those "molehills" are one of the reasons that India had and continues to have the tragedy described in above point.

Many, including other points that you mentioned. But this 15 lakh thing is a non starter.

1. The atmosphere of hate in the country. Right wing people getting away with blatant hate speech. What do we intend to achieve with these divisions? Do the authorities have no idea of the havoc this can play with internal security, even if they don't care about assigning 2nd class status to a community?
2. Covid mismanagement
3. Zero difference in grassroots level corruption
4. Perceived increase in crony capitalism
5. Creation of cult persona around Modi. Isn't cult persona what BJP supporters hated most in the Congress?
6. Poor level of political discourse
7. Weakening of institutions
8. No improvement in economic indicators
9. No difference in the lives of the poorest
10. Shutting up and intimidating your critics through IT cell
11. Creating definitions of patriotism

Every point in your list is valid but the 15 lakhs things is also one of the false promises. I agree with you that no one actually believed He would fulfill the promise but since I speak of societies like India, USA etc not being democracies but demagogueries the demagogue must be held to account over his promises even if they were feel-good jumlas, never meant to turn to actuality.

 

[Paitoo]

Every point in your list is valid but the 15 lakhs things is also one of the false promises. I agree with you that no one actually believed He would fulfill the promise but since I speak of societies like India, USA etc not being democracies but demagogueries the demagogue must be held to account over his promises even if they were feel-good jumlas, never meant to turn to actuality.

Forget about politics for a moment.

When you go into a discussion or negotiation in office / business / diplomacy, you don't start with the most volatile subject. You start with easy wins, demonstrate some progress on smaller points and progressively move to more thorny issues. All this while being courteous and being a good listener (I am not suggesting you aren't).

Now I know you can accuse Bhakts of being belligerent, while they will accuse you of trying to talk them down from a superior position. This is where you make a choice, if you want to have a discussion - to continue with your decency, or descend to their level. Both are acceptable, as long as you are aware of the outcomes. I choose the former, and when I cannot continue, I disengage. Not just with Bhakts, but with all religious hardliners. No one's views every changed by arguing in an internet forum. They change by first hand experiences and actively seeking opposing views.

 

[peagle]

I have no mention there was no need to enlarge a discussion on a point which was very centric and concentrated. I will provide short replies to other points so as to keep this relevant to the topic in the thread.

I did, reluctantly, to avoid any aspersions on the military professionals who are our members; please see #28.

I did read the post #27, #28 being my post, but I could find no relevance. I found the comparison amounting to clutching for straws. Allow me to explain why.

What happened in 71 took place in an active civil war zone, which you can imagine is not normal under any circumstances, it was compounded by known active external support, such situations tend to heighten sensibilities, and common sense usually gets thrown out of the window.
It was also a period when Pakistan was under martial law, effectively dictatorship, and without knowing your actual example because it is yet to be made clear, the environment at the time was in no way glorification of any individual or entity, it was an environment of survival.

The situation in India is now prevailing under normal rules of governance, society and state. Under a "democratic" setup, secular constitution and open source media whether that be social or mainstream media. plus we live in more enlightened times, where the masses are far more educated and aware then they were in 71. These things being as they are, it makes such example far worse.

I think it is an unfair and an incorrect comparison.

On that, it is a horrific prospect, and one whose advent strikes fear into the heart of all Indians whose morality is not mortgaged to the Sangh Parivar and its way of thinking.

Yup, I would hope it does, I think these are the concerns being highlighted by members on PDF, because to them sometimes it seems, the fears you describe are not taken seriously or dismissed as a passing fad.

Here, there is some confusion, I think.

As far as Indian members will interpret this, a very dicey slogan was used, that personifies the country as a goddess. We have had very clear opposition to this from those who are not Hindus, and the courts have ruled that neither opposition to this nor a refusal to stand for the national anthem may be punished under any law that is in the books at the moment.

Again, Indian members will be uncomfortably reminded that the military greeting 'Jai Hind' is universally acceptable, even among civilians. Whoever that man was, who was trying to cheerlead those poor rescued students, he was very clumsy and his approach was very politicised.

I was not referring to the Mata slogan, just the religious connotations regarding political authority. I know why the Mata slogan was created, why it is being used, and the religious or lack thereof meaning behind such slogans, and this one in particular.

My point regarding this has been addressed in the above reply.

As for this, 36% of the electorate that voted in 2019 voted for the Sangh Parivar and its allies.

This should remind us that, notwithstanding the sweeping generalisations that we sometimes encounter, about Indians, about Hindu Indians, and even about Muslim Indians, 64% of the electorate did not vote for this lot now in power.

The overpowering presence in Parliament is clear and visible from electoral statistics.

The Sanghis won, in UP, Bihar and Himachal and Uttarakhand, very many seats with very narrow margins. In the rest of India, they got few seats. Most of that 36% comes from the moronic heartland.

An explanation; in terms of demographics, the Sangh Parivar has enormous backing among the spoilt, techno-coolies spawned in training centres that are laughably called institutions of higher learning. They get good paying jobs, can afford the middle-class basics of life, speak a kind of English that is recognisable as English, own home computers or pads or smart phones, and are present in overwhelming numbers on line. That gives the world an impression that what this trash thinks and writes defines India. It does not.

I can explain the situation among our officers as well, to whoever might be interested.

I will leave this entirely, because it just enlarges the discussion, touching on topics beyond the scope of this thread.

But, I will add this much, I completely disagree with the conclusions, the percentage of votes cannot be used to explain the support for political Hinduism or political religiosity in India. I think it is a dangerous approach, because it aids in hiding the facts, and discolours the actual conclusions.

 

[Paitoo]

Sure, not a goddess at all

This is somebody's rendition of Bharat Mata, most Hindus do not visualize it like this. In any case this seems like Durga and Durga is not = Bharat Mata, even if some people want to believe so. I see it no different from the concept of motherland / fatherland. The revisionist tendencies of right wing does not change that.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think it is an unfair and an incorrect comparison.

I hear you, but I don't agree. I have no desire to expand on this theme, because of my policy of never commenting on Pakistani politics, or Pakistani social norms; what I am here to discuss is the military actions that have taken place, specifically between Pakistan and India, but in general in the world at large. I reserve the right, as a loyal and committed Indian citizen, to criticise our own Indian politics, Indian society and the state of the Indian military.

So while what you have suggested is debatable, I choose not to debate it; what you have done, you have done. My remark was spontaneous and caused by the pain that the memory retains, a pain that no amount of rationalisation can remove.

the fears you describe are not taken seriously or dismissed as a passing fad.

That is due to a wholly disproportionate representation of those who are predisposed to dismiss these fears.

I was not referring to the Mata slogan, just the religious connotations regarding political authority. I know why the Mata slogan was created, why it is being used, and the religious or lack thereof meaning behind such slogans, and this one in particular.

To me, personally, and without sitting in judgement on the opinions of others, this is a laboured explanation beyond what I have stated. I am not able to extend the reasoning in the manner that it has been extended, but perfectly agree to that being a valid opinion of somebody else.

But, I will add this much, I completely disagree with the conclusions, the percentage of votes cannot be used to explain the support for political Hinduism or political religiosity in India. I think it is a dangerous approach, because it aids in hiding the facts, and discolours the actual conclusions.

Fair enough, but before dropping the subject, it seems fair to point out also that while you and other external observers are going by the evidence that you have, it is distorted evidence, and far from balanced, whereas within the situation as I am, it is at the same time more distressing and less doomed to a dismal end than might seem to an external inspection.

 

[jamahir]

Forget about politics for a moment.

When you go into a discussion or negotiation in office / business / diplomacy, you don't start with the most volatile subject. You start with easy wins, demonstrate some progress on smaller points and progressively move to more thorny issues. All this while being courteous and being a good listener (I am not suggesting you aren't).

Completely agreed.

Now I know you can accuse Bhakts of being belligerent, while they will accuse you of trying to talk them down from a superior position. This is where you make a choice, if you want to have a discussion - to continue with your decency, or descend to their level. Both are acceptable, as long as you are aware of the outcomes. I choose the former, and when I cannot continue, I disengage. Not just with Bhakts, but with all religious hardliners. No one's views every changed by arguing in an internet forum. They change by first hand experiences and actively seeking opposing views.

I agree with the intention of your statements before the sentence I have underlined and so I have always been civil on the forum, been elaborate where needed and reasoned with the member on the same subject in successive posts.

About the underlined, the internet's as good as any offline place to discuss and in fact in some situations the means used - textual conversation - can actually clarify things which then can be said in a tea house or on a stage in front of an audience. On the non-positive said, haven't we known of people who have been radicalized with wrong ideas through the internet ? They became misguided, change through the power of the internet.

This is somebody's rendition of Bharat Mata, most Hindus do not visualize it like this. In any case this seems like Durga and Durga is not = Bharat Mata, even if some people want to believe so. I see it no different from the concept of motherland / fatherland. The revisionist tendencies of right wing does not change that.

This particular picture may be someone's rendition irregular to the popular one but it is unnees-bees, yes ? This Bharat Mata / Vande Mataram unpleasantness wouldn't have risen if right in 1947 the founding people of India, sensible though some were : (a). Had not used humanoid representation of the country whether motherland or fatherland, (b). Had prepared the masses for a Humanist, progressive, Communist future where Indians should be participating in exhorting the peoples of Earth towards a borderless humanity with the artificial Nation State concept to be abolished and towards this use Rabindranath Tagore's exhortation essay against nationalism - use this element of Tagore instead of that unthoughtful "Jana gana mana" national anthem also written by Tagore.

 

[Paitoo]

About the underlined, the internet's as good as any offline place to discuss and in fact in some situations the means used - textual conversation - can actually clarify things which then can be said in a tea house or on a stage in front of an audience. On the non-positive said, haven't we known of people who have been radicalized with wrong ideas through the internet ? They became misguided, change through the power of the internet.

There is some truth in what you say, especially about the radicalization part. But the people who get radicalized over the internet are very unlikely to be engaging in debate in the first place. They are mostly listening to one way communication. But, yes point taken.

This particular picture may be someone's rendition irregular to the popular one but it is unnees-bees, yes ? This Bharat Mata / Vande Mataram unpleasantness wouldn't have risen if right in 1947 the founding people of India, sensible though some were, had not : (a). Used humanoid representation of the country whether motherland or fatherland,

I don't know what they teach in school these days, but when I finished my studies, over 20 years back, we were never taught about the concept of Bharat Mata. Superimposed illustrations of goddesses on Indian map were completely absent. Today is the age of digital art and social media, people are illustrating all sorts of things and sharing on the internet. MF Husain painted Sita clinging to Hanuman's tail in a suggestive way. Does it mean Muslims, or even artists visualize Sita in that way?

 

[TheNoob]

These evacuees should be given new birth certificates with mananiya Modi ji's photo on it, like the Covid vaccine certificates

wait, for real? Can I have a picture? LMAO

 

[Paitoo]

wait, for real? Can I have a picture? LMAO

Sorry, no free distribution. You will need to be rescued first.

 

[Sharma Ji]

What's the big deal here ?

Governments around the world greet evacuees from disaster/war zones when their citizens return, there's nothing new here.

Modi did call and tried to make arrangements for their safe return too. Some Indians even got caught up in the madness, there's even a thread or two about it.

About the military, they're always loyal to the elected reps, and that happens to be the BJP at this time. Just like the US military is "pro" Biden, just like any other military.

"Hail to the chief" .. and so on..

so, for better or for worse, Modi Ji is our supreme commander at the moment.

 

[Riz]

Its was cartoon bipin rawat who helped this cow minded matric fail idiot to win the election 2nd time , even rahul gandi was not happy with bipin rawat role

 

[jamahir]

wait, for real? Can I have a picture? LMAO

Among other things @DrJekyll will have this in mind.