Poland to provide Mig-29 to Ukraine - what should they get as replacement?

[Oldman1]

You can't do that with drone tho, I mean, not with the quantity the US sent them, Anything the US sent at this point is not going to be effectively interdict the convoy system.

That you need advance artillery (like ether M110 SPG or M777, with area effect round (or munition), better for M110SPG because you can shoot and scoop, but I think at this point, everything is a help for them I guess.

Drone are good at surgical strike, it's for interrupting C&C structure.

I would use the loitering munitions if possible. Like the Israeli Spike missiles but Israel refused to provide that to Ukraine. Just need to figure out how to deal with that force soon before other enemy forces from North East and East meets up and now Kiev could be surrounded.

 

[jhungary]

I would use the loitering munitions if possible. Like the Israeli Spike missiles but Israel refused to provide that to Ukraine. Just need to figure out how to deal with that force soon before other enemy forces from North East and East meets up and now Kiev could be surrounded.

Well, Hometel just got heat up, unconfirm report saying that a Russian general was killed in the fighting of Hometel near Antonov Airport...

And they need something more mobile with a lot of firepower packed, In the air, drone is not enough, you need a bomber (like a A-10) or F-16, but they won't be able to pilot it, I think we should ship Ukrainian some M60 Patton tank that was in storage, its not like the Army National Guard have any use of them, and we have around 3000 in storage in the National Guard depot...

 

[Oldman1]

Well, Hometel just got heat up, unconfirm report saying that a Russian general was killed in the fighting of Hometel near Antonov Airport...

And they need something more mobile with a lot of firepower packed, In the air, drone is not enough, you need a bomber (like a A-10) or F-16, but they won't be able to pilot it, I think we should ship Ukrainian some M60 Patton tank that was in storage, its not like the Army National Guard have any use of them, and we have around 3000 in storage in the National Guard depot...

Yeah I saw that. Also another thing is they need to secure those airports and airbase near Kiev, it would definitely help the city with new supplies and weapons quickly besides those traveling by road from the west. I doubt they need M60s considering they can get some bunch of abandoned but familiar tanks they can use now. Question is do they have the logistics to support them. With the tire problems going on with the Russian military, I use some abandoned tanks or something heavy that won't be easy to remove to block the roads that goes from one city to another and make them go on the mud and cause them to blow out their tires which would cause more traffic jams and clog the roads. I say loitering munitions with about 10 km range or more is the way to go to handle the convoys. Hit the front columns, they won't go further.

 

[jhungary]

Yeah I saw that. Also another thing is they need to secure those airports and airbase near Kiev, it would definitely help the city with new supplies and weapons quickly besides those traveling by road from the west. I doubt they need M60s considering they can get some bunch of abandoned but familiar tanks they can use now. Question is do they have the logistics to support them. With the tire problems going on with the Russian military, I use some abandoned tanks or something heavy that won't be easy to remove to block the roads that goes from one city to another and make them go on the mud and cause them to blow out their tires which would cause more traffic jams and clog the roads. I say loitering munitions with about 10 km range or more is the way to go to handle the convoys. Hit the front columns, they won't go further.

Well, I don't think they can capture 3-400 Russian tank, and even if they do, once the ammo on those tank were gone, they are of no use. If US send them the tank and reconstituting their Armor brigade and use it as a mobile force on the front line. That would reek havoc on the Russian Column, which are current stung out, hit them from the side, and they will crumble.

The only air asset you can do that is A-10 or Su-25, Drone is not going to do the job unless you are talking about a massive drone with 20 + drone sending 80+ missile, otherwise it won't do much. And they probably are not going to be able to fly the A-10, Frogfoot is the only possibility, but I heard that Bulgaria and Poland have problem parting with them.

 

[Oldman1]

Well, I don't think they can capture 3-400 Russian tank, and even if they do, once the ammo on those tank were gone, they are of no use. If US send them the tank and reconstituting their Armor brigade and use it as a mobile force on the front line. That would reek havoc on the Russian Column, which are current stung out, hit them from the side, and they will crumble.

The only air asset you can do that is A-10 or Su-25, Drone is not going to do the job unless you are talking about a massive drone with 20 + drone sending 80+ missile, otherwise it won't do much. And they probably are not going to be able to fly the A-10, Frogfoot is the only possibility, but I heard that Bulgaria and Poland have problem parting with them.

Perhaps the U.S. can persuade those countries to part ways with some of those aircraft in return for new modern aircraft at a discount and fast delivery...

Are there thousands of M60s based in Europe now in storage or its still in the U.S.? How long would Ukrainian crews have to be fast trained for those tanks? At least 2 weeks?

 

[jhungary]

Perhaps the U.S. can persuade those countries to part ways with some of those aircraft in return for new modern aircraft at a discount and fast delivery...

Are there thousands of M60s based in Europe now in storage or its still in the U.S.? How long would Ukrainian crews have to be fast trained for those tanks? At least 2 weeks?

Well, yeah, but then I would think either this is going to end up in a blackmail for EU (like the Poland or Bulgaria would asked for latest replacement for their old Su-25. or a bunch of money in return.)

M60 is very easy to use, it does not have the advance optics and computer system like in the Abrams, it would be like driving a Russian Tank, and there are bunch of parts in the US because Egypt, Israel, Turkey and Taiwan still using it. IIRC there are stock in most place, Egypt can transfer their stock to Ukraine and US replace Egyptian M60 with M1 Abrams (They are using both) or they can transfer from Israeli stock. Israel have up to 110 Patton in storage and Egypt have up to 600 in storage. I think all ex US Army National Guard Patton are in the US.

But yes, transfer of air power will be the best option in my opinion.

 

[War Thunder]

Real or not, what’s real is Russians getting their arse kicked and not yet able to enter kyiv. Just like Indian army failed at lahore.

The Russians didn't want to be bombing civilians and engage in a prolonged urban combat, or they won't come in light initially, and stop even if an unarmed civilian was standing in front of their tanks. Try doing that to a NATO tank, and you will learn how much they care for white skinned Ukrainians beyond their use in fighting Russia on their behalf. They will feed you an arm you and watch you die.
If Russians wanted to destroy or capture those cities, they would already have, and they have both the resources and manpower to do that. Which they are about to do when their convoy reaches Kiev.

I am guessing they didn't think the war will stretch, as they expected Zelinsky to give up with the initial light troop assault. But Zelinsky is getting played by NATO, and in turn playing his entire country to do NATO's bidding.
NATO will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian, and in the end Russia will still be standing and strong.

Do not mistake their lenience and unwillingness to ruthlessly kill Ukrainians for their weakness, unless you lack knowledge of war tactics and urban warfare and just here to troll.

 

[Oldman1]

Well, yeah, but then I would think either this is going to end up in a blackmail for EU (like the Poland or Bulgaria would asked for latest replacement for their old Su-25. or a bunch of money in return.)

M60 is very easy to use, it does not have the advance optics and computer system like in the Abrams, it would be like driving a Russian Tank, and there are bunch of parts in the US because Egypt, Israel, Turkey and Taiwan still using it. IIRC there are stock in most place, Egypt can transfer their stock to Ukraine and US replace Egyptian M60 with M1 Abrams (They are using both) or they can transfer from Israeli stock. Israel have up to 110 Patton in storage and Egypt have up to 600 in storage. I think all ex US Army National Guard Patton are in the US.

But yes, transfer of air power will be the best option in my opinion.

Are there any other country that are willing to part ways with such aircraft besides those in Europe?

 

[gambit]

Well, Hometel just got heat up, unconfirm report saying that a Russian general was killed in the fighting of Hometel near Antonov Airport...

And they need something more mobile with a lot of firepower packed, In the air, drone is not enough, you need a bomber (like a A-10) or F-16, but they won't be able to pilot it, I think we should ship Ukrainian some M60 Patton tank that was in storage, its not like the Army National Guard have any use of them, and we have around 3000 in storage in the National Guard depot...

No, they will not. You cannot simply plop any pilot into any platform and expect the pilot to maximize the platform's capabilities, even if the platform is as 'primitive' as the A-10, let alone the F-16. And I use the word 'primitive' in its relative comparison to the F-16. The A-10 have no radar to assist in gunnery, even when the targets are ground based, which means the targets are 2D. A-10 pilots must go thru dozens of familiarity flights to essentially learn how to shoot like WW II pilots did. Because there is no radar, weapons must be essentially the fire-and-forget type, so for best odds of success, once again go back to WW II, the pilot must align the jet as best as possible to the ground target so the missile's sensor have the optimum target acquisition, meaning minimize off angle shooting/launching.

That is not saying MIG and Su pilots cannot learn how to fly and fight with the A-10. But not under the current combat stressed and time constrained environment. The fear of the odds of losing more A-10 exists and that fear is valid.

 

[.King.]

They should get JF17.

 

[War Thunder]

Wrong. In Syria, it was Russia itself who made a move in. It wasn't their war.

Wrong. Russia moved in to protect Syria and their only ally that was providing them with a naval base and access to the Arabian and Helenaic waters. Otherwise they would be cut down to frozen ports and just one port in the Black Sea, that too dependent on Turkey's willingness to allow them to use the passage.
That's what the United States wanted. "Pull them into those wars" or make them lose their allies
What else do you think the United States wanted by destroying Assad's regime or taking out Libya (another ally of Russia) before that?

 

[Maula Jatt]

They should get JF17.

Tejas are even better

 

[gambit]

A reasonable analogy is to put a Spitfire pilot into a P-51, even during the middle of the war. All the Spitfire pilot need is a few sorties mostly to familiarize himself to cockpit differences and maybe some performance differences at altitudes, then he can fly full combat sorties with American pilots without anyone being concerned of any pilot deficiencies.

We cannot say the same for putting a pilot used to center stick and put him into a jet with sidestick, for one example. That is not to say he cannot learn to adjust. Absolutely he can and will. But he will need more than a few days to make the adjustment. So if we are to give the Ukrainians any jet, we have to try to match the replacement platform to as close as possible what they are used to.

 

[jhungary]

Are there any other country that are willing to part ways with such aircraft besides those in Europe?

No, not in Europe anyway, there are Russian made stuff in Iraq and in country like Malaysia or Indonesia that have good relation with EU, but the chances of getting those stuff from them are virtually non existence.

Then what left is traditional Russian partner or supporter (India, Kazakhstan and so on), but I really doubt they are going to let EU use their stuff on Russia

No, they will not. You cannot simply plop any pilot into any platform and expect the pilot to maximize the platform's capabilities, even if the platform is as 'primitive' as the A-10, let alone the F-16. And I use the word 'primitive' in its relative comparison to the F-16. The A-10 have no radar to assist in gunnery, even when the targets are ground based, which means the targets are 2D. A-10 pilots must go thru dozens of familiarity flights to essentially learn how to shoot like WW II pilots did. Because there is no radar, weapons must be essentially the fire-and-forget type, so for best odds of success, once again go back to WW II, the pilot must align the jet as best as possible to the ground target so the missile's sensor have the optimum target acquisition, meaning minimize off angle shooting/launching.

That is not saying MIG and Su pilots cannot learn how to fly and fight with the A-10. But not under the current combat stressed and time constrained environment. The fear of the odds of losing more A-10 exists and that fear is valid.

Well, that's why I opt for sending drone and helluva armor. Would advocate sending them Abrams if they are in a better position but I don't think they will be able to use Abrams effectively. People think about tank like a car or truck (more closely) but they are anything but, well, older tank like the M48 or M4 Sherman, you basically get 5 controls (or switch) Drive Train so you can change gear, Steering rod so you can drive, Gas and brake so you can go forward and stop, The trigger to fire the gun, and the control rod for moving the turret. As long as you can work those 5 things you can drive that tank to combat

Modern tank is much like aircraft like you mentioned. a lot of digital things you need to consider, Optics, Aiming, or even bringing up a map in your console require some degree of digital control, and the aiming system specifically is very complex, I mean not that it's hard to use, but you would have no idea when it malfunction, unless you know what it did (Like the internal gizmo), you literally cannot troubleshoot the system, the system alone would probably require a degree to operate (Well, they don't but I am just saying that)

 

[Oldman1]

No, not in Europe anyway, there are Russian made stuff in Iraq and in country like Malaysia or Indonesia that have good relation with EU, but the chances of getting those stuff from them are virtually non existence.

Then what left is traditional Russian partner or supporter (India, Kazakhstan and so on), but I really doubt they are going to let EU use their stuff on Russia

[/QUOTE]
Then the alternative is to get more Turkish drones and do massive attacks. I don't think any other European country has an attack drone of some kind. Only in concept or prototypes. Don't know if Turkey has something bigger to carry more payloads and in large quantities. Have to look.

Well, that's why I opt for sending drone and helluva armor. Would advocate sending them Abrams if they are in a better position but I don't think they will be able to use Abrams effectively. People think about tank like a car or truck (more closely) but they are anything but, well, older tank like the M48 or M4 Sherman, you basically get 5 controls (or switch) Drive Train so you can change gear, Steering rod so you can drive, Gas and brake so you can go forward and stop, The trigger to fire the gun, and the control rod for moving the turret. As long as you can work those 5 things you can drive that tank to combat

Modern tank is much like aircraft like you mentioned. a lot of digital things you need to consider, Optics, Aiming, or even bringing up a map in your console require some degree of digital control, and the aiming system specifically is very complex, I mean not that it's hard to use, but you would have no idea when it malfunction, unless you know what it did (Like the internal gizmo), you literally cannot troubleshoot the system, the system alone would probably require a degree to operate (Well, they don't but I am just saying that)

If the U.S. is willing to push the limit, then No Fly Zone would be one option OR provide air support and launch attacks on Russian forces with none of our ground forces involved except for Ukraine's.