PNS Azmat Class - Fast Attack Missile Craft | Updates & Discussions.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

why cant azmat class be as potent as Saar 4.5 of Israel navy

One gets what they pay for. The Pakistan Navy bought the Azmat FAC in its configuration due to a severe lack of funding, so it couldn't do much besides the essentials (namely anti-ship warfare). I think, down the line that is, they can configure the Azmat FAC with the FN-3000N point-defence missile-system, a new combat management system, some jamming equipment, etc. It could be made into something fairly close to the Sa'ar 4.5

 

[syed_yusuf]

One gets what they pay for. The Pakistan Navy bought the Azmat FAC in its configuration due to a severe lack of funding, so it couldn't do much besides the essentials (namely anti-ship warfare). I think, down the line that is, they can configure the Azmat FAC with the FN-3000N point-defence missile-system, a new combat management system, some jamming equipment, etc. It could be made into something fairly close to the Sa'ar 4.5

in my opinion, azmat with saar 4.5 type aggressive capability & in numbers like 8 -12 will form a formidable defense against any intruder into our waters. with advancement in technology, 24 cell FL-3000N and anti ship torpedo could easily be adopted. we can replace and install 30 MM STAMP RWS.

 

[rana MRL]

Aoa.. I am not a naval expert just watch and read defence thread and news .... from this thread I have also some thought as in thus thread might be already said ....
Azmat is a 560 ton design now ,,, if MTC make some improvement and iteration in design make it to large as 100-1300 ton keeping this configuartion on large degrees ,, and keeping saar class development in minds ,, azmat class can have formidable punch,, as incorporating VLS or not can put upgraded AshM like zarb more range and lethality then c802 and keeping main gun and CIWS system same and FL 3000N system if I am not wrong is derived from chinese Manpad ,, we have Anza missile if we can make some changes in designand seeker of it can install it
More importantly about SAM system mid range southafrican Ukhomonto system ,, depth charges
Sensor and processing system like hamina class ,, outsourcing from chinese or turkish system ..
Make Azmat as compact and lethal
Might take time but if will and sone cash it can be done
These are just my speculation ,,,any suggestion welcome plz no troll and offense ,,,thnx

 

[Tank131]

Frankly you dont even need to increase its size tremendously. If you just replaced its twin 25mm cannon with an Ak630 or Type 730 CIWS and put a 21 cell FL-3000N where the current AK630 ciws is you would have a ship that packs a very powerfup punch. Add in a better radar like Smart S mk2 or TRS-3D/16-ES which have ranges of 250 amd 200km respectively, you have a very good light corvette which is more heavily armes than F-22P.

 

[khanasifm]

I wish the navy is listening and making these changes, theses guys do not know anything about naval requirements and weapons systems and should subscribe to the forum

With due respect

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I wish the navy is listening and making these changes, theses guys do not know anything about naval requirements and weapons systems and should subscribe to the forum

With due respect

Honestly, the Navy just seems to have come to a different solution. In our view, the threat of ASW aircraft is real enough to warrant a sea-based air defence network, but these guys might be of the view that the sea is sufficiently vast enough to enable Pakistani submarines to avoid the P-8Is. It's not a bad view considering the scale of aerial ISR it took to find MH370. They'll need to be pretty confident in China's submarine acoustics against industry standard sonar, but overall, it is a valid - albeit contestable - view.

I disagree with its view, but I wouldn't disparage the Navy for having it. Pakistan has finite funding, and it is beset with fiscal uncertainty. I know people get ticked off at hearing this, but this is the reality of the situation. The Navy made the trade-off of bulking up on a strong submarine fleet, which are inherently difficult to track, at the expense of a thinner conventional frigate fleet.

@Oscar

 

[Tank131]

Honestly, the Navy just seems to have come to a different solution. In our view, the threat of ASW aircraft is real enough to warrant a sea-based air defence network, but these guys might be of the view that the sea is sufficiently vast enough to enable Pakistani submarines to avoid the P-8Is. It's not a bad view considering the scale of aerial ISR it took to find MH370. They'll need to be pretty confident in China's submarine acoustics against industry standard sonar, but overall, it is a valid - albeit contestable - view.

I disagree with its view, but I wouldn't disparage the Navy for having it. Pakistan has finite funding, and it is beset with fiscal uncertainty. I know people get ticked off at hearing this, but this is the reality of the situation. The Navy made the trade-off of bulking up on a strong submarine fleet, which are inherently difficult to track, at the expense of a thinner conventional frigate fleet.

@Oscar

Honestly the issue isnt even ASW aircraft. Its more the ability to intercept missiles and naval strike fighters (Mig-29s) which will make short work of PN surface fleet and then the Pakistani coast. The more the fleet gets pushed closer to the coast the less room even the subs have to operate and the easier time ASW aircraft will have hunting the subs

 

[The Accountant]

Honestly, the Navy just seems to have come to a different solution. In our view, the threat of ASW aircraft is real enough to warrant a sea-based air defence network, but these guys might be of the view that the sea is sufficiently vast enough to enable Pakistani submarines to avoid the P-8Is. It's not a bad view considering the scale of aerial ISR it took to find MH370. They'll need to be pretty confident in China's submarine acoustics against industry standard sonar, but overall, it is a valid - albeit contestable - view.

I disagree with its view, but I wouldn't disparage the Navy for having it. Pakistan has finite funding, and it is beset with fiscal uncertainty. I know people get ticked off at hearing this, but this is the reality of the situation. The Navy made the trade-off of bulking up on a strong submarine fleet, which are inherently difficult to track, at the expense of a thinner conventional frigate fleet.

@Oscar

Honestly the issue isnt even ASW aircraft. Its more the ability to intercept missiles and naval strike fighters (Mig-29s) which will make short work of PN surface fleet and then the Pakistani coast. The more the fleet gets pushed closer to the coast the less room even the subs have to operate and the easier time ASW aircraft will have hunting the subs

I think the plan of PN is to use submarine as offensive punch to keep our area clear of the enemy ... Remember that with small coastal area and shifting of sea lanes from Karachi to Gawadar force of 11 submarines is huge ... Indian Navy need to come more closer to Pakistan to attack in such a situation our submarine will be the main attack force whereas P8s are of no use in Pakistan's territorial water unless India has complete air superiority and have naval blockade which is difficult to achieve in presence of 11 advance submarines ...

The real threat to Pakistan is from carrier battle group ... If India gets successful in deploying career battle grup within close range of Pakistan territorial water than they can implement naval blockade ... We need to have a clear strategy against carrier battle group ... only chance Pakistan have here is cm400akg ... pakistan needs to get those in numbers ... Furthermore we also need to evaluate if we can deploy some radars and defensive equipments in some island or artificial island at a slight distance from our shores however i am not aware of any such island in Pakistani territorial waters ... Such facility can provide us a significant advantage ...

After submarines PN needs atleast two feavy frigates with advance capabilities andablity to survive on its own even against saturated attacks of supersonic missiles ... And a medium to high altitude SAM ... These two assets will serve to provide much needed air cover to whole of the fleet ...

 

[MastanKhan]

I think the plan of PN is to use submarine as offensive punch to keep our area clear of the enemy ... Remember that with small coastal area and shifting of sea lanes from Karachi to Gawadar force of 11 submarines is huge ... Indian Navy need to come more closer to Pakistan to attack in such a situation our submarine will be the main attack force whereas P8s are of no use in Pakistan's territorial water unless India has complete air superiority and have naval blockade which is difficult to achieve in presence of 11 advance submarines ...

The real threat to Pakistan is from carrier battle group ... If India gets successful in deploying career battle grup within close range of Pakistan territorial water than they can implement naval blockade ... We need to have a clear strategy against carrier battle group ... only chance Pakistan have here is cm400akg ... pakistan needs to get those in numbers ... Furthermore we also need to evaluate if we can deploy some radars and defensive equipments in some island or artificial island at a slight distance from our shores however i am not aware of any such island in Pakistani territorial waters ... Such facility can provide us a significant advantage ...

After submarines PN needs atleast two feavy frigates with advance capabilities andablity to survive on its own even against saturated attacks of supersonic missiles ... And a medium to high altitude SAM ... These two assets will serve to provide much needed air cover to whole of the fleet ...

Hi,

If for a smaller space---the number of 11 submarines is huge---then on the reverse----it also gets easier to hunt them in a smaller area as well---.

And you are right about the anti ship missiles---. We need a heavy strike platform for that.

 

[The Accountant]

Hi,

If for a smaller space---the number of 11 submarines is huge---then on the reverse----it also gets easier to hunt them in a smaller area as well---.

And you are right about the anti ship missiles---. We need a heavy strike platform for that.

I agree with you but my opinion is based on the assumption that objective of Pakistan is to keep sea lanes open .. keep India from Pakistan's terriotrial and other than intelligence gathering and nuclear deterrent there is no conventional aggressive role assigned to submarines hence prime area of operation will be Pakistan own territorial water ...

Now there is no significant threat to Pakistan submarines other than CBG of india as P8 cannot afford to come close to Pakistan shores even with escort planes as it will put significant threat to P8 from thunders ... aircraft of this size are easy catch for BVR missiles ...

11 submarines can easily handle 8 to 10 frigates and destroyer with advance anti submarine capabilities ... as Pakistan's submarines have multiple warheads and take out surface assets ... the real threat however will be CBG as they are normally in numbers with variety of capabilities including nuclear submarines frigates and destroyer and if any submarines decided to take offence against a single asset it will compromise uts location and rest of the asset of CBG will take out the submarine ... main challenge is to keep CBG away from iur submarine fleet ...

Regarding nuclear role our submarines are with AIP hence they can spend weeks idle waiting for the right time ...submarine with very slow movement are very difficult to detect by any asset if not impossiblw ... submarines are most vulnerable when snorkling or when they are moving at a fast pace which will not be required if submarines are assigned the role of safety of territorial integrity

 

[khanasifm]

Bottom line Type 21 needs replacement and PN if orders now new ship assuming 1 per year you need 4/5 years unless its like subs some build locally and some come from abroad within few years

Chinese , Turk or may be some used one on urgent basis

may be short term used one and long term new ??? I guess time will tell

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

Assalam o alaikum,
New in the posting section, not so in the reading section. Didn't know if these things have been discussed here before as I didn't read all the previous posts.
This will be in reference to Pakistan's ship building industry and thus Navy indirectly.

If only we could get more Perrys and send them through GENESIS. If I am not wrong, some 7 Perrys are still waiting FMS. Talks could be renewed with US.
But it seems the navy has shelved the plans of acquiring Perrys even if it costs a mere penny.
They will only accept U.S. ships if they come free and when they have been handed over to Pakistan.
I do not disagree with the PN here. But we are short of cash, systems, and indigenous naval based missiles. And even if we had all those we don't have enough ship yards for speedy production.
While Chinese, at present it seems can't provide ships within a reasonable time frame as PLAN's demand is huge.

Notice: we signed for F22Ps, relatively simple ships, in 2007 and got the first one almost 2 years later and the fourth one six years later from KS&EW.

On the other hand KS&EW is way too lethargic, be it due to lack of appropriate equipment, manpower, funds or training.
KS&EW is by far only an assembler and that too a highly inefficient, incapable and slow assembler.
BTW, there is nothing wrong in being an assembler but if you are doing it for more than 3-4 decades than you are to be blamed.
Until we have our own capacity the only way to survive is to de-escalate any tensions in the maritime theatre even if such de-escalation requires quid pro quo.

A slight question at the end from seniors. Can anyone tell what about work on any new ship yards in country. There were news of more shipyards at port Qasim and Gawadar during Musharraf's time but nothing since then. If there is a discussion thread on the matter that also gets regularly updated than please guide me to it.

 

[The Eagle]

Assalam o alaikum,
New in the posting section, not so in the reading section. Didn't know if these things have been discussed here before as I didn't read all the previous posts.
This will be in reference to Pakistan's ship building industry and thus Navy indirectly.

If only we could get more Perrys and send them through GENESIS. If I am not wrong, some 7 Perrys are still waiting FMS. Talks could be renewed with US.
But it seems the navy has shelved the plans of acquiring Perrys even if it costs a mere penny.
They will only accept U.S. ships if they come free and when they have been handed over to Pakistan.
I do not disagree with the PN here. But we are short of cash, systems, and indigenous naval based missiles. And even if we had all those we don't have enough ship yards for speedy production.
While Chinese, at present it seems can't provide ships within a reasonable time frame as PLAN's demand is huge.

Notice: we signed for F22Ps, relatively simple ships, in 2007 and got the first one almost 2 years later and the fourth one six years later from KS&EW.

On the other hand KS&EW is way too lethargic, be it due to lack of appropriate equipment, manpower, funds or training.
KS&EW is by far only an assembler and that too a highly inefficient, incapable and slow assembler.
BTW, there is nothing wrong in being an assembler but if you are doing it for more than 3-4 decades than you are to be blamed.
Until we have our own capacity the only way to survive is to de-escalate any tensions in the maritime theatre even if such de-escalation requires quid pro quo.

A slight question at the end from seniors. Can anyone tell what about work on any new ship yards in country. There were news of more shipyards at port Qasim and Gawadar during Musharraf's time but nothing since then. If there is a discussion thread on the matter that also gets regularly updated than please guide me to it.

https://defence.pk/pdf/forums/pakistan-navy.14/

In above mentioned link/Pakistan Navy Section you will find different discussion threads that are updated by members as & when any update is available or to discuss the topic so browse and participate as per subject and your interest. Also, you can use search option with key words for area of interest as well.

Regards,

 

[Incog_nito]

Instead of FAC, PN should bought some more JF-17s and MPAs. Moreover, increase the numbers of ships for PMSA boats capable of carrying missiles too.

 

[Tank131]

PMSA 1500t Ships may be capable of fielding missiles during wartime. That being said, MSA vessels are meant as coast guard ships for policing, anti-piracy, anti narcotics, search and rescue. They arent meant to fight in naval conflicts and are for MSA not navy. That being said, Pakistan needs these FAC for EEZ patrol and Litoral water interdiction of enemy naval vessels. They, if provided appropriate air cover in the form of surface based SAMs and land based fighters, can be effective. That being said, Pakistan has 1 sqd of JF-17 dedicated to Naval strike and Naval air cover...too few assets. That is why i have been railing against the notion of watered down milgems in favor of a more substantial, multirole MILGEM-G or chinese solution.