PNS Azmat Class - Fast Attack Missile Craft | Updates & Discussions.

[Shadow_Hunter]

Only a MORON would compare a fast patrol boat (600 ton) to a frigate (4000 ton).... go away!

As for F22P versus pr. 11356 ...

3000t versus 4000t
76mm versus 100mm
8 C802 versus 8 brahmos
2 30mm ciws versus 2 ak630
15km Fm90 verus 35-50 km Shtil

mmmm , not that much of a difference when attacked by jets or subs with Harpoon class missiles....

And its funny how you always twist the facts to hide the inferiority of pakistani ships.

Fm90 is the only air defence system on F22p, where as Talwar class also has SA-N-12 missile & SA-16 portable SAMs. And how can you say that not much of a difference when attacked by jets???? you don't find a difference between 15 km and 50 km range??

F22p has no SAMs for CIWS role, while Talwar class has SA-19 clusters, but you ate up that in your quest to collect thanks.

Besides weapons, why didn't you compare other features of these frigates, because you know yourself that Talwar class will beat F22p hands down on every single specific.

Next time if you decide to call someone Moron, please don't be so pathetic, and lets discuss about Azmat now

 

[Bossman]

Similarly, only a MORON will compare a recently inducted ship with an 25 year old one.

And its funny how you always twist the facts to hide the inferiority of pakistani ships.

Fm90 is the only air defence system on F22p, where as Talwar class also has SA-N-12 missile & SA-16 portable SAMs. And how can you say that not much of a difference when attacked by jets???? you don't find a difference between 15 km and 50 km range??

F22p has no SAMs for CIWS role, while Talwar class has SA-19 clusters, but you ate up that in your quest to collect thanks.

Besides weapons, why didn't you compare other features of these frigates, because you know yourself that Talwar class will beat F22p hands down on every single specific.
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Next time if you decide to call someone Moron, please don't be so pathetic, and lets discuss about Azmat now

You must be a moran, what makes you think all Pakistan ships don't have manpads and they are French Mistrel. CIWS is the best proven option against missiles and BTW FM90 does have limited CIWS capability.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

You must be a moran, what makes you think all Pakistan ships don't have manpads and they are French Mistrel. CIWS is the best proven option against missiles and BTW FM90 does have limited CIWS capability.

That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.

Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K

 

[alimobin memon]

Azmat is fast attack boat not Cruiser that it has Everything as Airdefense

 

[TaimiKhan]

That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.

Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K

Is it for sure that the FAC will face a Mig-29??

The FAC will operate close to the shore line, mostly under the air protection of PAF, and then again we don't know what is theRCS of this FAC, at what range the Indian Mig-29 will detect it, or any other Indian assets in the vicinity. Its small, it has stealth features, so may be by the time it gets detected it may already have launched its missiles, hit and run tactics. And then it has its own CIWS for missile defence and most probably MANPADS for visually seen targets.

As of now, we have no idea what will happen in the war scenario, but this FAC will be close to the shore line and may be used in hit and run attacks.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Is it for sure that the FAC will face a Mig-29??

The FAC will operate close to the shore line, mostly under the air protection of PAF, and then again we don't know what is theRCS of this FAC, at what range the Indian Mig-29 will detect it, or any other Indian assets in the vicinity. Its small, it has stealth features, so may be by the time it gets detected it may already have launched its missiles, hit and run tactics. And then it has its own CIWS for missile defence and most probably MANPADS for visually seen targets.

As of now, we have no idea what will happen in the war scenario, but this FAC will be close to the shore line and may be used in hit and run attacks.

Well Mig29K will be deployed on INS Vikramaditya which will be Indian Flagship on the western side. It is also logical to assume that IN will want to repeat their 1971 blockade of karachi port which proved in quick ending of the war.

Obviously lots of scenarios can take place. For hit & run Azmat should have the ability to sneak up to the ship & fire one lethal strike and its speed is low so it cannot run(I believe I read about its speed on this forum itself. Plz correct me if I am wrong). That would depend upon its stealth features. Other than that I don't see a use for this kind of ship. I am also puzzled as to how it fits into PN strategy. Shouldn't they had gone for lesser number but bigger ships?

 

[Bossman]

That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.

Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K

As one of the posters has already stated Azmat will not meet Mig29K because by then your aircraft carrier would have already met a Pakistan submarine.

 

[Bossman]

Well Mig29K will be deployed on INS Vikramaditya which will be Indian Flagship on the western side. It is also logical to assume that IN will want to repeat their 1971 blockade of karachi port which proved in quick ending of the war.

Obviously lots of scenarios can take place. For hit & run Azmat should have the ability to sneak up to the ship & fire one lethal strike and its speed is low so it cannot run(I believe I read about its speed on this forum itself. Plz correct me if I am wrong). That would depend upon its stealth features. Other than that I don't see a use for this kind of ship. I am also puzzled as to how it fits into PN strategy. Shouldn't they had gone for lesser number but bigger ships?

There was no real blockade of Karachi in 1971, yes there was a very successful Osa missile boat raid by IN on the port. But by the same token remember what happened to INS Kukri and Kirpan. Indian Missile boat capability in 1971 was unique thanks to Russian largess and Pakistan had no match or counter for it. Pakistan had no air surveillance capability to speak except for some civillian aircraft i.e. PIA Fokkers and Twin Otters inducted with nothing but visual search. IN was operating TU142 bears maritime reconnaissance plane with Soviet crews to provide cover to the missile boats.

In case of war commericial shipping stops going to war zone due insurance issues so it will have the same impact on India as much as on Pakistan so in other word blockades is something kids mastarbute to. India tried to do a show of force after the Parliment attack in 2002 by bring its fleet out to the Arabian Sea during the monsoon, they were forced back to the port within a week or so because it was impossible to maintain any sustainable operational readiness beyond a few days due to rough weather conditions. In other words when the IN ships came back to port they were barf buckets with a bunch of sick sailors. It becomes even more interesting Pakistani subs (remember 3 AIP already operational) ships and aircrafts with Harpoons, excoets and C802 lurking around. No Indian Scorpenes are operational yet and the old KILO and German subs have very low operational availability. No doubt P8s are a real threat and a game changer but will be addressed in due time say for example a few Cruise Missiles hitting the base early in the hostilities.

 

[Penguin]

Similarly, only a MORON will compare a recently inducted ship with an 25 year old one.

Not sure what you are referring to....

F22P is recently commissioned, new design but clearly based on Type 053H3 Jiangwei1
PNS Zulfiquar 251 laid down 12 October 2006 launched 5 April 2008 commissioned 19 September 2009
Sword / F-22P Class Frigates - Naval Technology

11356 is recently commissioned, new design but clearly based on Krivak III (crossbred with P17 features).
INS Talwar (F40) Launched May 2000 Commissioned 18 June 2003
Talwar Class Frigate - Naval Technology

And its funny how you always twist the facts to hide the inferiority of pakistani ships.

Fm90 is the only air defence system on F22p, where as Talwar class also has SA-N-12 missile & SA-16 portable SAMs. And how can you say that not much of a difference when attacked by jets???? you don't find a difference between 15 km and 50 km range??

F22p has no SAMs for CIWS role, while Talwar class has SA-19 clusters, but you ate up that in your quest to collect thanks.

Besides weapons, why didn't you compare other features of these frigates, because you know yourself that Talwar class will beat F22p hands down on every single specific.

Next time if you decide to call someone Moron, please don't be so pathetic, and lets discuss about Azmat now

Handheld or manually trained/elevated Manpads do not count in this equation as they are comparatively useless (not centrally directed). And can be taken on board by either party with equal ease (QW-series ....?)

What did I twist? I gave my assessment. You're free to give yours....

Meanwhile, I think you failed to notice that batch 2 11356s don't carry Kashtan anymore, just AK630. Which implies IN isn't all that happy with that system and sees AK630 (without Barak, which is normally paired to AK630 in other new IN ships) as good enough.

In terms of gunnery, 2x2 30mm gatlings Batch 1 11356 or 2x1 30mm gatling in batch 2 versus 2 single 30mm gatlings.... is very similar. Higher rof also means greater ammo expenditure, so there are some tradeoffs there. Note that AK 630s where reverted to and not e.g. Palma/Palash twin gatling

15km or 50km doesn't make a whole lot of difference when the opponent comes in with jets carrying 150-200km AShM (aircraft remain outside of missile range in both cases)

As for antishipmissile defence, FM90 is longer range than earlier HQ7 and:

The main air defence weapon is an 8-cell HongQi-7 (French Thales Crotale copy) short-range SAM system, designed to engage aircraft in all-weather, day/night conditions at a maximum range of 8~12km with line-of-sight guidance. The missile also has limited capability to intercept sea-skimming anti-ship missiles at a much closer range (4~6km).

Type 053H3 (Jiangwei-II Class) Missile Frigate - SinoDefence.com

By comparison, Shtil 1:

The launchers can fire the 9M38 (NATO codename: SA-N-7 Gadfly) semi-active, radar-homing, medium-range air defence missile. The missile uses the ship’s Top Plate 3D circular scan radar for target tracking, and the Front Dome (three radar for each launcher, each radar with two guidance channels) indication radar for missile guidance. Up to three missiles can be aimed simultaneously. The range is up to 25km against aircraft and 15km against anti-ship cruise missile.

So really it is not 15km versus 50km but 6km versus 15km as far as anti-missile mode is concerned.

Still, 11356 is said to carry 9m317 and this has better missile defence capability.

The launchers can fire the 9M317 (other sources suggested 9M38M2) Shtil / SA-N-12 Grizzly semi-active radar-homing, medium-range air defence missile, with 48 missiles carried onboard. The missile’s maximum range is 38km against aircraft and 20km against anti-ship cruise missile.

Type 052B (Luyang-I Class) Missile Destroyer - SinoDefence.com

... although I think that range depend on where (how high up) your radars are.

More missile info here: Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You yourself started out discussing the air defence capability (not the other capabilities)
All can make up their own mind about other weapons:

Club/Brahmos versus C802: Brahmos is fast but effectivenees also depends on seekers/guidance etc, also which Club version is carried: with supersonic end stage and short range or longer range but slower air breather?

ASW: heavyweight torps + RBU + heli versus (russian sonar) light weight torps + rbu + heli (NB F22P is said to have western sonar installed.)

IMHO not a WORLD of difference.

 

[Penguin]

That is not what I meant. I was merely replying to his post where he claimed that F22p and Talwar class are almost equal. Every SAM has limited CIWS capability. Still dedicated CIWS are used all over the world.

Moreover this thread is about Azmat. I am more interested in knowing how will Azmat's air defences will fare against Mig29K

About as good as China's Type 022 wave piercing catamaran's air defences will fare against that same jet.

Well Mig29K will be deployed on INS Vikramaditya which will be Indian Flagship on the western side. It is also logical to assume that IN will want to repeat their 1971 blockade of karachi port which proved in quick ending of the war.

Obviously lots of scenarios can take place. For hit & run Azmat should have the ability to sneak up to the ship & fire one lethal strike and its speed is low so it cannot run(I believe I read about its speed on this forum itself. Plz correct me if I am wrong). That would depend upon its stealth features. Other than that I don't see a use for this kind of ship. I am also puzzled as to how it fits into PN strategy. Shouldn't they had gone for lesser number but bigger ships?

Repeat: it is not a FAC proper but a patrol boat with missiles;
It will patrol in peace time (100%-x% of service life) while having a usefull capability for wartime (x% of service life). With x being kept as small a possible. How hard is it?

30kt on water is not slow. Veer class (Russian project 1241 Nato: Tarantul) of about the same size does 35 - 40 knots but has all GTu propulsion (i.e. lesser endurance: 1650 at 14 knots , operational autonomy for 10 days, with crew = 40-50 as compared to 12-14 sailors for Azmat)

Fast is Japan's Hayabusa class or Italy's Sparviero (both 46 kt). The former is 240 tons and the latter 60 tons.

 

[INDIAISM]

Only a MORON would compare a fast patrol boat (600 ton) to a frigate (4000 ton).... go away!

As for F22P versus pr. 11356 ...

3000t versus 4000t
76mm versus 100mm
8 C802 versus 8 brahmos
2 30mm ciws versus 2 ak630
15km Fm90 verus 35-50 km Shtil

mmmm , not that much of a difference when attacked by jets or subs with Harpoon class missiles....

Althrough i am not an expert in this department but i have Just 1 question for you sir what do you think that Indian Navies Procurment Department have bunch of incompetent people who are spending 530 Million Dollars on the ship which don't have much advantage on 250 million dollars F 22P....it almost like saying their is no difference between F22P and Type 054A or 054A+...

 

[Abingdonboy]

Some points to consider:
- All F22P will have a SAM plus 2 gun CIWS, whereas with the ex-RN Type 21s just 3 have SAM but no CIWS (just regular 30mm AAA) and 3 have CIWS but no SAM.
- Inadequate compared to what? P25 Khukri and P25A Kora classes have only AK630/Manpads, yet serve in IN fleet formations. P16/16A have BARAK + AK230/AK630, which is fine for close in but not exactly good air defence either if/when operating alone, outside a fleet formation (which is what PN ships do routinely). While Batch 1 project 11356 combined Shtil with Kashtan CIWS, the batch 2 ships do no have Kashtan, just AK630: the remarks for P16/16A apply here too.
- The single carries operational with IN carries 16 Barak, a pair of AK230 and 2 Bofors 40. That too hardly qualifies as adequate air defence if ever she got caught with her SHARs away on mission.
- PN will - as much as possible - employ surface assets under cover of land based aviation.

No mention made of BARAK 8 which will be standard fit for all new large (1500+ tonnes) IN ships from next year and will be retrofitted onto existing platforms from next year too.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

What about Type-54A arrival on lease....?

 

[Penguin]

Althrough i am not an expert in this department but i have Just 1 question for you sir what do you think that Indian Navies Procurment Department have bunch of incompetent people who are spending 530 Million Dollars on the ship which don't have much advantage on 250 million dollars F 22P....it almost like saying their is no difference between F22P and Type 054A or 054A+...

- We're comparing ships , not procurement departments (about which I've said or suggested nothing).
- Money is not the same as capability
- There ARE differences between the ships discussed. However, we were discussing air self defence capability.

Whatever you think about P17, if attacked at stand-off distance by jets with AShM or by subs with encapsulated AShM, the longer range of its SAM does not do it much good other than providing more opportunities to fire at the inbound missile (since neither SAM can touch the AShM launch platform). Antiship missile defence range is LESS than air defence missile range (smaller target, extremely low level approach etc). Meanwhile, a missile like Harpoon has a speed of 537 miles per hour (864 km/h: 240 m/s). So the difference between e.g. a 6km and 15km anti antiship missile range is 9000m or 37,5 seconds. At Standard Sea Level conditions (corresponding to a temperature of 15 degrees Celsius), the speed of sound is 340.3 m/s (1225 km/h, or 761.2 mph, or 661.5 knots, or 1116 ft/s. And Shtil flies Mach 3 = 1020.9m/s i.e. it takes about 14.5 seconds to fly out to 15000, so that 37.5s is with about 3 extra shots.

But it is clearly NOT the case that P17 can hold its own alone and F22P cannot.

 

[Penguin]

No mention made of BARAK 8 which will be standard fit for all new large (1500+ tonnes) IN ships from next year and will be retrofitted onto existing platforms from next year too.

I think you are confusing Barak and Barak 8. Barak for selected over Trishul, which was intended to replace OSA-AK. This is a self defence missile like Sea Wolf. Barak 8 is much longer ranged and slated for use on P15A (7000 tons) and follow-on P15B. Not even necessarily P17A... P28 (2500tn) will have Barak, the Sea Wolf equivalent.