PN U-Boats!

[happybirthdaytoyou]

This is kind of a classic issue, and there is a lot of confusion about it.

It is necessary to understand project legacy and concept origins to understand the differences between both ships, and the first thing we must clear about the question is:

None of the ships is overly superior to the other.

U-212 and U-214 are answers to different problems, and therefore they are different.
U-212 is the result of a german requirement for a submarine with a non magnetic hull. This requirement has to do with the average depth of the Baltic Sea (56m). In those circumstances, the most important defence method of a submarine is just to go to the bottom and try to disappear in the sonar. Hence, the need for a non-magnetic steel hull.
Unfortunatelly, non-magnetic steel is also known in the industry as «sweet.steel.» Meaning that it is «softer» than the steel used in the U-214. Thats why a U-214 can go deeper than a U-212, although in the shallow water of the Baltic the U-212 would go un-notices while the U-214 would probably be caught by sonar.

Actually the family legacy of U-212 is not U-209, but the Thyssen project from the 1970s that resulted in the TR-1700 submarine from Argentina. The fastest Diesel-electric submarine in the world. The same basic layout with two decks is also found in the Dolphin class from Israel, although without non-magnetic steel nor AIP.

U-214s legacy is the U-209, although much changed. It is narrower and longer that U-212. It was not thought for the Baltic, but for open deep sea operation. Therefore U-214 will have no bottom of the sea limit, other than the limit imposed by the resistance of its stronger hull.

Both U-214 and U-212 can operate in shallow waters or deep waters, but U-212 has the edge on shallow water, while U-214 has the edge on deep water.

The systems can be changed and installed on either vessels, depending on the requirement of the users.
U-212 has older systems than the U-214 (which is just natural as the projects are almost 10 years apart).

Note that U-212 was never offered as an option to a navy. When it was offered to the Italian navy, there was no U-214 yet.

U-212 uses an imported combat system partially made in Norway by Kongsberg, known as MSI-90, while U-214s combat system is made in germany.by Atlas-Elektronik, being the latest version of the ISUS-90 system.

There are many differences in combat systems, but one of the most important results in U-212 being only able to fire torpedoes, while U-214 can fire both torpedoes and submarine launched sub harpoon missiles. This will change in future versions of U-212 though.

The consolidation of german naval industry ended with the competition between both models in the 1990s.

One cant just say which of them is better. The U-212 was an absolute german need for the Baltic conditions. Italy wanted an AIP submarine, and there wasnt really any real choice at the time. When a navy makes an option for a model, the most logical option is to stick to it, and thus Italy is going to get an additional two U-212.

For a navy that is going to protect shallow waters, there is no doubt about the clear superiority of U-212. In deep sea operations away from the shores, U-214 will fare better.

 

[was]

 

[happybirthdaytoyou]

I hope my post make all the thing clear

 

[garibnawaz]

Scorpene In Rough Sea

German class 214 submarine enters the fray with a hard to resist offer
FORCE May-2005
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The ‘almost done deal' for acquiring six Scorpene-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK) worth almost US$2 billion for the Indian Navy now certainly appears to be in jeopardy, as the German Submarine Consortium (GSC) last month made a hard-to-refuse offer for supplying an equal number of Type 214 SSKs along with a related package for upgrading the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that were acquired from the GSC in the 1980s. To make the offer extremely attractive, GSC has proposed the following:

The Type 214 SSKs are being offered at prices 30 per cent cheaper than the Scorpenes.

State-owned, Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks (MDL), which has so far licence-built two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, will be trained and equipped by the GSC to licence-build the Type 214s within a six-month period following contract signature.

GSC will have an industrial tie-up with MDL to enable the latter to independently undertake the mid-life refits of the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that will include the installation of self-contained ‘hull modules' that will house fuel-cell-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems similar to the ones on board the Class 214 SSK.

GSC will give the navy total flexibility to choose, install and integrate the Type 214 SSK's combat management system; guided-weapons; optronic periscopes; tactical data links; SATCOM and VLF communications suites; search radar; electronic warfare (EW) suite; and the sonar suite that will include a cylindrical array sonar for medium-frequency passive detection, flank array sonar for low/medium-frequency detection, thin line active/passive towed-array for low-frequency determination of target range and bearing of hostile submarines, an intercept array sonar for detection of active emissions of surface warships, and an active high-frequency mine detection sonar.

http://www.forceindia.net/images/scropeneinroughsea.jpg


It is believed that India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is favourably disposed to GSC's offer due to the following reasons:

Unlike the Scorpene, which is equipped and armed with sensors and systems made only by France (by Armaris, THALES, SAGEM and MBDA) and Spain (IZAR), the Type 214 SSK is being offered with a choice of weapons and sensors from different countries. This means the SSK will be able to fire the Russian Novator-built 3M54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) and its 3M-14E land-attack variant, which is well-liked by the navy and is currently operational with at least four of the navy's upgraded Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs.

The Scorpene SSK, although ordered by Chile (two) and Malaysia (two), does not yet have an operational AIP system. Armaris is still developing the steam turbine-based ‘MESMA' (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. In contrast, the fuel-cell-based AIP system developed by the GSC and Siemens is currently operational with the navies of Germany and Italy.

GSC's offer of ‘helping enable' MDL to upgrade in-country the navy's four 1,850-ton Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, which will approach the end of their operational lives between 2016 and 2024, is something Armaris of France cannot match. The navy too regards the mid-life upgrade of these four SSKs an operational necessity.

The fuel-cell-based AIP system of the Class 214 SSK is similar in design and operating concept to the Kristall-27E AIP of the Russian Amur 1650-class SSK, six of which will be licence-built for the navy by Larsen & Toubro Ltd and be armed with BrahMos vertically-launched, multi-role supersonic cruise missiles (see FORCE November 2004, page 22). This will help greatly reduce the life-cycle costs of both the Type 214 and the Amur 1650 SSK fleets.

The Type 214 SSK is derived from the Type 212 SSK, four of which have begun entering service with the German Navy and were built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden, both members of the GSC. The two Type 212s ordered by the Italian Navy are being licence-built by Fincantieri. The Greek Navy has ordered four Type 214 SSKs, while South Korea has ordered three Type 214 SSKs that are being licence-built by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of more than 400 metres (more than 1,400 feet), compared to the Scorpene's 300 metres. Its hull length is 65 metres and displacement is 1,700 tonnes. Built of austenitic steel (HY-80 and HY-100), the SSK's buoyancy reserve is in excess of 10 per cent. Four of its eight torpedo launch tubes (equipped with a water ram expulsion system) are capable of firing ASCMs. Heavyweight torpedoes used by the Type 214 SSK include the Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei-built Black Shark or STN Atlas' DM2A4 dual purpose, wire-guided heavy torpedo.

Propulsion is provided by two MTU-built 16V396 diesel-electric engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) 120kW fuel-cell modules. The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (Type FR6439-3900KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a low-noise, skewback 7-blade propeller. Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the Type 214 SSK to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 Knots. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ Knots are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50-day mission. At a speed of 6 Knots the mission range is almost 12,000nm, while the maximum endurance is 84 days.

The navy's Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs were ordered on 11 December 1981. The first two SSKs (S-44 Shishumar and S-45 Shankush) were built by HDW and were inducted into service on 22 September and 20 November 1986, respectively. The remaining two (S-46 Shalki and S-47 Shankul) were licence-built by MDL and entered service on 7 February 1992 and 28 May 1994.

Dear Friend,

This is old news. The Scorpene deal is through.

Now there is requirement for another 6 subs under Project-75I program. (Scorpene being Project-75).

Under Project-75I 2 types of subs India is considering.

1) Type-214 (since India already have Type-209)
2) Amur SSK (Which is a succesor of Kilo's)

Indian Navy poised to open bids for new submarines
Press Trust of India (PTI) ^ | February 16, 2007
Posted on Fri Feb 16 2007 22:50:09 GMT+0530 (India Standard Time) by sukhoi-30mki

Navy to get submarine assembly line
February 16, 2007 18:11 IST

With a view to bolster its undersea fighting capabilities, the Indian Navy is poised to open international bids for acquisition and construction of second range of submarines.

"The request for proposals to acquire and build six new range of submarines would be floated shortly," a senior naval official told PTI.

In contention would be the Russians with their 4th generation Amur class submarines armed with vertically launched KLUB-S Missiles and new generation of German HDW submarines with their Air Independent propulsion systems.

The navy has already firmed up a deal with the French warship builders DCN International for construction of six scorpene submarines at Mazagoan docks in Mumbai.

The first of these hunter-killer submarines are expected to roll out by 2011. Naval officials have ruled out equipping any of the six Scorpene submarines with AIP, but Naval Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta has said this capability would be a criteria for the new planned acquisition of six more submarines.

However, the navy remains tightlipped about progress of a proposal to acquire two Russian Akula (Bars) class type 971 Nuclear powered submarines, as part of India's nuclear deterrent based on sea, land and air platforms.

"We definitely would want to have nuclear submarines because of their long undersea endurance, the decision has to be political," naval officials said.

Naval and DRDO scientists have been working on an indigenous nuclear submarines for years, but are cautious to go public on the project labelled Advance Technology Vehicle.

According to sources, India may go in for first sea trials of the submarines by 2009.

Indian and Russian dockyards have been in negotiation for over three years on the acquisition of the Amur class submarines, which are described as successors to the Indian Navy's Kilo class submarines.

Amur's displacement is smaller than Kilo, but its capabilities are stated to be far superior. The Russians have offered to incorporate Rubin-Designed fuell cell AIP in their offer of technology transfer to India. Amur has a displacement of 2000 ton and can attain maximum speed of 21 knots when submerged and 10 knots when surfaced, with a crew of 30 to 34 personnel and an endurance of 45 days.

The Russians had designed the new AIP system to be retrofitted to the Indian Navy Sindhughosh class submarines, some of which are currently being upgraded at St Petersburg. However, the navy opted to go in for vertically launched Klub-S missiles instead. The Amur class submarines also sport anti-ship missiles such as SS-N-15 or the SS-N-16 Misslies and a variety of mines and torpedoes.

The Russians had designed the new generation Amur class submarines for joint induction into the Indian and Russian navies and the subs are expected to cost significantly less than the Kilo class.

However, the Americans could be late entrants for Indian submarine deal and by the time the RFP's are issued in late march or early April, they could also be in the hunt for the Indian deal.

On other acquisition prospects, Naval officials said evaluation was currently underway for inducting eight Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft. "Bids from Boeing and Airbus for the long range spy planes and from Lockheed-Martin offering the P3C Orions and Russian IL-38D for the short range requirment are under study," an official said.

Navy is also planning to buy 16 helicopters with the option of another eight to replace its ageing Seaking Mk 42s and Seaking Mk42s fleet, which are fast approaching the end of their service life. They said Navy was also acquiring Naval versions of the Hawk jet trainers.

 

[garibnawaz]

rhetorical argument? I already proved type 214 is a totally different platform,

The argument was Type-214 is better than Type-212 which is false.

nope, type 214 still is far more stealthier than any other conventional submarine out there, whether it has a non-magnetic hull or not. it has technologies you don't have or will have for a while. it's nothing like the type 209 or type 212, it's a newer platform.

Any reliable source for this other than your fantasies? The official HDW site itself states the above which you are trying to deny. WHom to trust you? or the makers of this sub?

The Class 214 submarines were developed by HDW on the basis of the proven design principles of the family of Class 209 submarines

In addition, innovative systems from the Class 212A boats were also integrated in the design. The net result was and is an air-independent but non-nuclear submarine with exceptional technical and operational capabilities, featuring extraordinarily developed stealth characteristics and an impressive weapon and sensor payload. Thanks to its modular design, the Class 214 submarine can be equipped with a wide range of optional systems depending on the requirements of the customer navy.Other exceptional features of the Class 214 submarine are:Other exceptional features of the Class 214 submarine are:

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems

This is retrived from the official web page of HDW.

 

[Super Falcon]

i dont think so india will not go for u 214 even they will i gemrnay will not pass them to india because deal is under way with pakistan

 

[garibnawaz]

i dont think so india will not go for u 214 even they will i gemrnay will not pass them to india because deal is under way with pakistan

As I said it is an open market.

Whoever comes first gets it.

If Pakistan is first to place the orders they get it and India go for another option.

If India is the first to place the order then Pakistan goes for other option.

Only time will tell.

 

[was]

guys there are reposts on times of india that india has protested to germany against sub sale to pakistan

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

The argument was Type-214 is better than Type-212 which is false.



Any reliable source for this other than your fantasies? The official HDW site itself states the above which you are trying to deny. WHom to trust you? or the makers of this sub?

The Class 214 submarines were developed by HDW on the basis of the proven design principles of the family of Class 209 submarines

In addition, innovative systems from the Class 212A boats were also integrated in the design. The net result was and is an air-independent but non-nuclear submarine with exceptional technical and operational capabilities, featuring extraordinarily developed stealth characteristics and an impressive weapon and sensor payload. Thanks to its modular design, the Class 214 submarine can be equipped with a wide range of optional systems depending on the requirements of the customer navy.Other exceptional features of the Class 214 submarine are:Other exceptional features of the Class 214 submarine are:

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems

This is retrived from the official web page of HDW.

WOW! you reply practically a year after my post! apparently you have no reading skills or comprehension. it says, "The Class 214 submarines were developed by HDW on the basis of the proven design principles of the family of Class 209 submarines"

What does that imply? Obviously, it's AIP, which was incorporated on the last model of the U-209, and other technologies that were first used on that sub.

Apparently, I know more about subs than you do, that's why you resort to using a few sources that you can't even comprehend. you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. actually, let's back up, whatever you just posted right now, where does it say that the U-214 is inferior or a simply a down-graded export version of the U-212? Whatever you just posted right now proves my point made earlier, the U-214 is a totally new submarine that derives technology from the U-212 and the U-209.

if you can't think or comprehend what I'm trying to say to you, let me give you a simple analogy. Turkey is a the largest operator of the U-209. Would they order something which is essentially the same thing as the U-209?

I've already shown you the pictures, it's up to your brain to do the rest.
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/7975/u2122145an.jpg

I've already explained why the germans would opt for the U-212, it better suits them and their operations and doctrine. however, this guys explains it more nicely
http://www.defence.pk/forums/247827-post31.html

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

i dont think so india will not go for u 214 even they will i gemrnay will not pass them to india because deal is under way with pakistan

Germany will sell to both if she can. Why should that bother her?

Whether the final contract allows for that, or whether the Indians will be interested if Pakistan does purchase the U-214, is what would prevent the sale.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Was, were you referring to this:

India protests submarine sale to Pak ​

12/29/2008 10:01:16 PM

In what comes as clearly a fallout of the Mumbai terror attacks, India has protested to Germany about its plans to sell submarines to Pakistan.

India has told Germany to call off the sale of 214 submarines manufactured by HDW to Pakistan over the next few years. The deal which is worth over one billion dollars is likely to be signed in the next few days.

India maintains that the sale would be a problem for India as it would definitely be used for conducting strikes against India.

TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos -

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Dear Friend,

This is old news. The Scorpene deal is through.

Now there is requirement for another 6 subs under Project-75I program. (Scorpene being Project-75).

Under Project-75I 2 types of subs India is considering.

1) Type-214 (since India already have Type-209)
2) Amur SSK (Which is a succesor of Kilo's)

Indian Navy poised to open bids for new submarines
Press Trust of India (PTI) ^ | February 16, 2007
Posted on Fri Feb 16 2007 22:50:09 GMT+0530 (India Standard Time) by sukhoi-30mki

Navy to get submarine assembly line
February 16, 2007 18:11 IST

With a view to bolster its undersea fighting capabilities, the Indian Navy is poised to open international bids for acquisition and construction of second range of submarines.

"The request for proposals to acquire and build six new range of submarines would be floated shortly," a senior naval official told PTI.

In contention would be the Russians with their 4th generation Amur class submarines armed with vertically launched KLUB-S Missiles and new generation of German HDW submarines with their Air Independent propulsion systems.

would you just stop posting crap! first finish your scorpene order, don't tell us about what india wants to buy! you only embarrass yourself, like always. You are actually trying to stop the sale of the type 214 again, we all know how that's going to fail. obviously, india is not getting the type 214, if pakistan is.

 

[IceCold]

Was, were you referring to this:

India protests submarine sale to Pak ​

12/29/2008 10:01:16 PM

In what comes as clearly a fallout of the Mumbai terror attacks, India has protested to Germany about its plans to sell submarines to Pakistan.

India has told Germany to call off the sale of 214 submarines manufactured by HDW to Pakistan over the next few years. The deal which is worth over one billion dollars is likely to be signed in the next few days.

India maintains that the sale would be a problem for India as it would definitely be used for conducting strikes against India.

TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos -

No actually it would be used to stop the terrorist attacks on Indian soil which by the way is the duty of IN who failed miserably in protecting its waters.

 

[Super Falcon]

and same thing we can say that if indian buy u 214 it can be used for attacking pak india always so scared from pakistan what ever pakistan buys indians always secretly calls those countries and ask them to not to sale to pakistan. they asked russia when musharaf was there in 2002 they asked china china did not listened to indian and keep saleing weapons to pak and they also asked belgium not to sale f16 to pakistan and now to germany and i dont think so germans are not too stupid as russians was germans need money which pakistan is giving them and pakistan almost finalized the deal so pakistan is the first not indians

 

[nitesh]

I think this is just a formality by Indian side nothing is going to happen (I don't think that they are serious also) may be this can delay the process a little bit but not ultimately stop it. Germany is also reeling under slow down. So there is a very slim chance that they will let go 1 billion plus dollar order.