PMLN announce political alliance with Jahangir Tareen party.

[nbamba]

To be fair, so many PTI ideological workers were angry when IK allowed electables, corrupt in to his party, they all knew they will use him and dump him when bad time comes. IK on record stated, you vote for IK and not the electables, he knew people are not happy but still continued. I dont know much about Usman Buzdar but many people were not happy with him. Also many senior PTI leaders told IK that anti establishment narrative will not be good and he needs to calm down but he didnt listen, he kept on blaming the generals, whether true or not but he did do it and Pti fan boys went on social media and caused extreme hatred and name calling, people for over a year called for mutiny.

Imran Khan as a leader should have known the situation will go out of hand and he will be trapped, today he is trapped and his best pals made their own party IPP. What option does IK have now but to make a deal with the establishment, and the establishment is not willing to do it. Let the Oct 2023 elections come, we will all witness how the Pakistani awaam is the same as IPP electables, they will change sides. As I mentioned before, IK needs to be very careful. I would still vote for him than the other parties but he needs to get out of this situation, get all party people released, work towards stability in Pakistan and then over the years make a comeback.

Although Imran Khan is likely to lose the right to participate in this year’s Pakistani general election, PTI has a high probability that it will not be banned. PTI’s current support rate is still enough to win this year’s Pakistani general election. Imran Khan can continue to lead PTI behind the scenes , this is like Thaksin in Thailand, although he himself was kicked out of Thailand, Thaksin's party still managed to win Thailand's general elections many times

 

[Meengla]

Although Imran Khan is likely to lose the right to participate in this year’s Pakistani general election, PTI has a high probability that it will not be banned. PTI’s current support rate is still enough to win this year’s Pakistani general election. Imran Khan can continue to lead PTI behind the scenes , this is like Thaksin in Thailand, although he himself was kicked out of Thailand, Thaksin's party still managed to win Thailand's general elections many times

It is a misconception that voters' don't change their loyalties! And May 9 has changed a lot in Pakistan. Voters are not the same anymore.

Imran's popularity, like others popularity, has been going up and down. Leading to the April 2022 NCM, PTI was losing byelections and even lost some important local elections in his stronghold of KPK. Imran was unpopular then and that's why he didn't call for early-elections leading to the NCM. Otherwise, with a stroke of his pen, the Assemblies would have been dissolved and fresh elections would have been called. Opposition realized that Imran had finally realized--just before the end of March 2022-- that his allies had deserted him and the Establishment had decided not to arm-twist Imran's allies to support Imran anymore; so the Opposition rushed to file the NCM. They knew once an NCM is tabled, it has to be voted upon. I am surprised no one talks about the breaking of the Constitution by throwing out the NCM--that was enough to punish Imran.

Coming back to what you are saying above: No, Imran will NOT be allowed to have a significant input in running the PTI for at least next few years. He burned his bridges with all. And on top of that, there is a valid concern that Imran is temperamentally not capable of course correction.

 

[nbamba]

选民不会改变他们的忠诚度是一种误解！9月<>日在巴基斯坦发生了很大变化。选民不再一样了。

伊姆兰的人气和其他人气一样，一直在起起落落。在 2022 年 2022 月的 NCM 之前，PTI 输掉了补选，甚至在他的大本营 KPK 输掉了一些重要的地方选举。伊姆兰当时不受欢迎，这就是为什么他没有呼吁提前选举导致NCM。否则，他大笔一挥，大会就会被解散，新的选举就会举行。反对派意识到伊姆兰终于意识到——就在 <> 年 <> 月底之前——他的盟友抛弃了他，建制派决定不再束缚伊姆兰的盟友来支持伊姆兰;所以反对派急于提交NCM。他们知道，一旦NCM被提交，就必须对其进行投票。我很惊讶没有人通过抛弃NCM来谈论违反宪法 - 这足以惩罚伊姆兰。

回到你上面所说的：不，至少在未来几年内，伊姆兰不会被允许在运行PTI方面做出重大贡献。他和所有人一起烧毁了他的桥梁。最重要的是，有一种合理的担忧是，伊姆兰在气质上没有能力纠正。

It is a misconception that voters' don't change their loyalties! And May 9 has changed a lot in Pakistan. Voters are not the same anymore.

Imran's popularity, like others popularity, has been going up and down. Leading to the April 2022 NCM, PTI was losing byelections and even lost some important local elections in his stronghold of KPK. Imran was unpopular then and that's why he didn't call for early-elections leading to the NCM. Otherwise, with a stroke of his pen, the Assemblies would have been dissolved and fresh elections would have been called. Opposition realized that Imran had finally realized--just before the end of March 2022-- that his allies had deserted him and the Establishment had decided not to arm-twist Imran's allies to support Imran anymore; so the Opposition rushed to file the NCM. They knew once an NCM is tabled, it has to be voted upon. I am surprised no one talks about the breaking of the Constitution by throwing out the NCM--that was enough to punish Imran.

Coming back to what you are saying above: No, Imran will NOT be allowed to have a significant input in running the PTI for at least next few years. He burned his bridges with all. And on top of that, there is a valid concern that Imran is temperamentally not capable of course correction.

But after the suppression of Imran Khan this time, it is obvious that Imran Khan's popularity among ordinary people in Pakistan has increased even more. It is no exaggeration to say that Imran Khan at this moment has a popularity that no Pakistani politician since Jinnah has. Never before in the history of Pakistan have multiple attempts to arrest Imran Khan been stopped by his fanatical supporters. Excluding someone with this level of popularity makes the Pakistani military the antithesis of the vast majority of Pakistanis, and it doesn't do much good for the military itself

 

[Meengla]

But after the suppression of Imran Khan this time, it is obvious that Imran Khan's popularity among ordinary people in Pakistan has increased even more. It is no exaggeration to say that Imran Khan at this moment has a popularity that no Pakistani politician since Jinnah has. Never before in the history of Pakistan have multiple attempts to arrest Imran Khan been stopped by his fanatical supporters. Excluding someone with this level of popularity makes the Pakistani military the antithesis of the vast majority of Pakistanis, and it doesn't do much good for the military itself

Absolutely not.
Benazir was also sacked in 1990 and was very popular then. The Establishment and its allies destroyed her to the extent that in 1990 she badly lost--popularity or not. Also understand that Pakistan is a 'security state'; it is not a 'normal' state. People have deep love for the military and Imran's dent into that love is not significant enough. Pakistanis instinctively know that the military is the last pillar of stability in Pakistan; you remove that without an alternative, you will destroy Pakistan like some Middle Eastern countries were destroyed. Gen. Hamid Gul always emphasized that point.

About people's loyalties to Imran: People have very transient loyalties. The concerted propaganda against Imran by all others in Pakistan plus the politics of the 'electables' is going to ensure not only PTI--if it is still left by October--loses but also Imran either imprisoned or deported. I can write these lines with a fair degree of certainty here.

You need to study Pakistan's political history and don't pay too much attention to the PDF fanbois who are often expats and deluded. Worse, they seem to want anarchy in Pakistan and cheer on the mayhem and destruction, while sitting comfortably in richer countries. On the ground, people outside of cities, vote along clan, biradery systems, follow their clan leaders, Sardars, Chaudhries, Murshids... the electables!

Another important point: PTI's voters may not even come out to vote. You see: Like PPP voters stayed home because they thought it would be futile to vote, the PTI voters are very likely to not come out to vote even if the elections would be totally fair.

Finally, , Imran's arrest is coming up. The military seems to want to prepare the ground for that. And no one will be able to stop that--not his 'fanatical supporters' either.

 

[HAIDER]

Absolutely not.
Benazir was also sacked in 1990 and was very popular then. The Establishment and its allies destroyed her to the extent that in 1990 she badly lost--popularity or not. Also understand that Pakistan is a 'security state'; it is not a 'normal' state. People have deep love for the military and Imran's dent into that love is not significant enough. Pakistanis instinctively know that the military is the last pillar of stability in Pakistan; you remove that without an alternative, you will destroy Pakistan like some Middle Eastern countries were destroyed. Gen. Hamid Gul always emphasized that point.

About people's loyalties to Imran: People have very transient loyalties. The concerted propaganda against Imran by all others in Pakistan plus the politics of the 'electables' is going to ensure not only PTI--if it is still left by October--loses but also Imran either imprisoned or deported. I can write these lines with a fair degree of certainty here.

You need to study Pakistan's political history and don't pay too much attention to the PDF fanbois who are often expats and deluded. Worse, they seem to want anarchy in Pakistan and cheer on the mayhem and destruction, while sitting comfortably in richer countries. On the ground, people outside of cities, vote along clan, biradery systems, follow their clan leaders, Sardars, Chaudhries, Murshids... the electables!

Another important point: PTI's voters may not even come out to vote. You see: Like PPP voters stayed home because they thought it would be futile to vote, the PTI voters are very likely to not come out to vote even if the elections would be totally fair.

Finally, , Imran's arrest is coming up. The military seems to want to prepare the ground for that. And no one will be able to stop that--not his 'fanatical supporters' either.

I think under this political alliance, PMLN make Central govt through the support of IPP and IPP make provincial govt through the support of PMLN.
. But Zardari .................

 

[FuturePAF]

Correct.
And the 'party' was a one-man show anyway.
Expats and fanbois just don't understand how electioneering works in Pakistan: The leaders and the electables spend money, hold a lot of political gatherings and much more to 'mobilize' people to vote for them. It is big business and politicians don't part with their money easily. And hence the nastiness and violence, especially in Punjab. Biradery system, clan loyalties, threats, family ties, inducements.... a lot has to happen before a candidate wins. Cheating and rigging can only help so much in Pakistan otherwise Imran wouldn't have lost the byelections leading up to April 2022 and wouldn't have won the byelections after April 2022.

The PTI fanbois' idea that Imran Khan is some Salahuddin or Superman marching up and down from Karachi to Khyber on a horse to win the elections is laughable. Even his personal popularity will decline as the propaganda builds up and people realize that Imran Khan is history for at least next few years.

Won’t the diaspora disengage with Pakistan, at least financially, as much as is possible outside of family commitments, if they can’t be bothered to decipher the three ring circus?

IK appeal was a mix of simple concepts and a linear process. He wasn’t able to overcome the vested interests, even from within the party, because the entire kleptocracy is spread out in all parties to ensure they are not disenfranchised.

Now that people fear being picked up for the slightest accusation and extractive policies are being turbocharged, capital and talent flight will continue and honest people will be weary to come back.

Politics are a sideshow to the economy. Kleptocrats have to decide how much they are willing to give up (and how much in social services spending they are willing to fund) if they want the country to return to an even keel.

 

[Meengla]

Won’t the diaspora disengage with Pakistan, at least financially, as much as is possible outside of family commitments, if they can’t be bothered to decipher the three ring circus?

IK appeal was a mix of simple concepts and a linear process. He wasn’t able to overcome the vested interests, even from within the party, because the entire kleptocracy is spread out in all parties to ensure they are not disenfranchised.

Now that people fear being picked up for the slightest accusation and extractive policies are being turbocharged, capital and talent flight will continue and honest people will be weary to come back.

Politics are a sideshow to the economy. Kleptocrats have to decide how much they are willing to give up (and how much in social services spending they are willing to fund) if they want the country to return to an even keel.

Pakistani expats are an asset for sure. But to what extent their love for Imran would prevent them for sending money to Pakistan? I don't know the answer but most, like me, who send money monthly to families would continue to do so.

No average Pakistanis, unless they are diehard PTI supporters going too far, are going to leave Pakistan because of the ongoing harassment. People are leaving because of the uncertain political situation and the economic situation. But the vast majority of Pakistanis can't afford to leave anyway. The idea that the State of Pakistan is going suppress people for no reasons is not based in reality. MQM raised 'genocide' against Urdu Speakers in the 1990s but I know hundreds of people in Karachi who are Urdu Speakers, as I am myself an Urdu Speaker, and I have never heard anyone was ever touched by the State of Pakistan; only MQM goons were who crossed certain lines.

But you are right about the thieving political class who switch parties to safeguard their interests and you are right they exist in all parties. Just don't let the bright shiny Imran Sun to blind you to what was in his own 'party'. PTI and PMLN are mirror images of each other. Both are Punjab based parties. Both rely on electables. Both use nasty rhetoric and even physical violence to achieve their goals. The Noonies are repressive right now. But I don't need to tell you what was done to them under Imran Khan. It's just that PMLN, due to repeated harassments by the Establishment, has become a bit more refined. Will PTI learn its lessons? That's almost impossible because Mr. Baghdad Bob of Pakistan is in denial about the reality facing him at this moment, let alone think of learning from it.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistani expats are an asset for sure. But to what extent their love for Imran would prevent them for sending money to Pakistan? I don't know the answer but most, like me, who send money monthly to families would continue to do so.

No average Pakistanis, unless they are diehard PTI supporters going too far, are going to leave Pakistan because of the ongoing harassment. People are leaving because of the uncertain political situation and the economic situation. But the vast majority of Pakistanis can't afford to leave anyway. The idea that the State of Pakistan is going suppress people for no reasons is not based in reality. MQM raised 'genocide' against Urdu Speakers in the 1990s but I know hundreds of people in Karachi who are Urdu Speakers, as I am myself an Urdu Speaker, and I have never heard anyone was ever touched by the State of Pakistan; only MQM goons were who crossed certain lines.

But you are right about the thieving political class who switch parties to safeguard their interests and you are right they exist in all parties. Just don't let the bright shiny Imran Sun to blind you to what was in his own 'party'. PTI and PMLN are mirror images of each other. Both are Punjab based parties. Both rely on electables. Both use nasty rhetoric and even physical violence to achieve their goals. The Noonies are repressive right now. But I don't need to tell you what was done to them under Imran Khan. It's just that PMLN, due to repeated harassments by the Establishment, has become a bit more refined. Will PTI learn its lessons? That's almost impossible because Mr. Baghdad Bob of Pakistan is in denial about the reality facing him at this moment, let alone think of learning from it.

Sure the money to family continues irrespective of politics. But his current atmosphere makes people hesitant to visit.

It’s not that IK is shiny, it’s that his supporters want to deal with less corruption (red tape and bribes) and want a straight forward process of doing business as well as social spending and civil liberty protections, upon which industries such as healthcare are built.

In short, a normal country. Enforcement of Contract law and related red tape for investors was the reason an Egyptian hotel magnate spend over ten years in limbo and when IK tried to facilitate his site tour, the helicopter was made unavailable at the last minute.

Is that too much to ask for?

If IK was always meant to just be a “handsome” veneer, the why toy with the public. If China and India can offer their citizens some level of prosperity in exchange for basically the public staying out of politics by and large, why not Pakistan. Better to handle the economy well and have the people focus on HDI, and earning export revenue for the nation.

Now more then ever, this is self evidently a struggle amounts the elite.

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667948800147865601

 

[PakFactor]

Pakistani expats are an asset for sure. But to what extent their love for Imran would prevent them for sending money to Pakistan? I don't know the answer but most, like me, who send money monthly to families would continue to do so.

No average Pakistanis, unless they are diehard PTI supporters going too far, are going to leave Pakistan because of the ongoing harassment. People are leaving because of the uncertain political situation and the economic situation. But the vast majority of Pakistanis can't afford to leave anyway. The idea that the State of Pakistan is going suppress people for no reasons is not based in reality. MQM raised 'genocide' against Urdu Speakers in the 1990s but I know hundreds of people in Karachi who are Urdu Speakers, as I am myself an Urdu Speaker, and I have never heard anyone was ever touched by the State of Pakistan; only MQM goons were who crossed certain lines.

But you are right about the thieving political class who switch parties to safeguard their interests and you are right they exist in all parties. Just don't let the bright shiny Imran Sun to blind you to what was in his own 'party'. PTI and PMLN are mirror images of each other. Both are Punjab based parties. Both rely on electables. Both use nasty rhetoric and even physical violence to achieve their goals. The Noonies are repressive right now. But I don't need to tell you what was done to them under Imran Khan. It's just that PMLN, due to repeated harassments by the Establishment, has become a bit more refined. Will PTI learn its lessons? That's almost impossible because Mr. Baghdad Bob of Pakistan is in denial about the reality facing him at this moment, let alone think of learning from it.

One thing you have to separate is your generation sending money back home to support extended family members at your will or due to parents asking (as in my case). But no one will send over any funds once that extension is gone.

For all his faults, Imran Khan wanted to create an environment for the younger crowd to maintain some attachment to the motherland. Which, from what I'm seeing, is failing now.

Let's not forget the current overseas workers attracted by the Gulf are now educated individuals, or those with specialization in industries GCC countries want to grow. As you've probably seen, even U.S., U.K., and Canada only want high-tech and specialized workers. I spoke with an analyst friend, who said this would adversely affect remittance to Pakistan as those individuals are fast-tracked to citizenship and can then chain-migrate families rendering the need to send money back home to zero.

So down the road, it's a double-edged sword. Either way, Pakistan is economically finished and rendered a eunuch in global affairs.

 

[Meengla]

Sure the money to family continues irrespective of politics. But his current atmosphere makes people hesitant to visit.

It’s not that IK is shiny, it’s that his supporters want to deal with less corruption (red tape and bribes) and want a straight forward process of doing business as well as social spending and civil liberty protections, upon which industries such as healthcare are built.

In short, a normal country. Enforcement of Contract law and related red tape for investors was the reason an Egyptian hotel magnate spend over ten years in limbo and when IK tried to facilitate his site tour, the helicopter was made unavailable at the last minute.

Is that too much to ask for?

If IK was always meant to just be a “handsome” veneer, the why toy with the public. If China and India can offer their citizens some level of prosperity in exchange for basically the public staying out of politics by and large, why not Pakistan. Better to handle the economy well and have the people focus on HDI, and earning export revenue for the nation.

Now more then ever, this is self evidently a struggle amounts the elite.

You and I tend to agree on most things here. But here we differ.
My basic point is Imran was a power hungry stupid arrogant person not suitable to rule a complex country like Pakistan. Sincerity and financial proprietary without a brain just doesn't cut it. There are tens of millions of well-meaning Pakistanis who are absolutely not corrupt. Probably the Moulvi of the mosque near my home in Karachi would qualify as 'Sadiq and Amin', as would the greats like Sattar Edhi. But were they the 'material' to rule a country like Pakistan?? No.

Also, I am sad to see even otherwise smart people like you and @PakFactor can't see that Imran made HUGE blunders and the roots of his blunders were in his stupid, arrogant brain. He is too stupid to lead Pakistan. I am resisting accusing him of corruption or manhandling of opponents and of his other faults because I don't have any proof of those and I am a very careful person in forming my opinion. But I have formed my opinion and I don't see anything in Imran Khan's behavior to make me change that opinion.
He is the 'Nadaan Dost' of Pakistan, at best.

PS. You are likely to see in coming weeks that the recent changes have the blessings of Pakistan's foreign friends, starting from China. There were already hints about that before the May 9 events. One of my favorite Chinese PDF Members said months ago that Imran's agitation was not good for Pakistan. Often people not too deep into the fanboism in Pakistan have the perspective to make objective analysis.

 

[Path-Finder]

The PTI fanbois' idea that Imran Khan is some Salahuddin or Superman marching up and down from Karachi to Khyber on a horse to win the elections is laughable. Even his personal popularity will decline as the propaganda builds up and people realize that Imran Khan is history for at least next few years.

funny snide from the supporter of the military junta that thinks its the pharaohs of egypt. Tell me one time in history where the likes of phaji junta survived? well it doesn't survive.

You and I tend to agree on most things here. But here we differ.
My basic point is Imran was a power hungry stupid arrogant person not suitable to rule a complex country like Pakistan. Sincerity and financial proprietary without a brain just doesn't cut it. There are tens of millions of well-meaning Pakistanis who are absolutely not corrupt. Probably the Moulvi of the mosque near my home in Karachi would qualify as 'Sadiq and Amin', as would the greats like Sattar Edhi. But were they the 'material' to rule a country like Pakistan?? No.

Also, I am sad to see even otherwise smart people like you and @PakFactor can't see that Imran made HUGE blunders and the roots of his blunders were in his stupid, arrogant brain. He is too stupid to lead Pakistan. I am resisting accusing him of corruption or manhandling of opponents and of his other faults because I don't have any proof of those and I am a very careful person in forming my opinion. But I have formed my opinion and I don't see anything in Imran Khan's behavior to make me change that opinion.
He is the 'Nadaan Dost' of Pakistan, at best.

PS. You are likely to see in coming weeks that the recent changes have the blessings of Pakistan's foreign friends, starting from China. There were already hints about that before the May 9 events. One of my favorite Chinese PDF Members said months ago that Imran's agitation was not good for Pakistan. Often people not too deep into the fanboism in Pakistan have the perspective to make objective analysis.

you write so much dung and manure and then keep taking another dump.

one thing since its the harami phauji's that retain power by hook and crook and since they have driven Pakistan into the toilet.

The ones that pull strings behind the scenes and now exposed. Generations of people will hate them and that will ultimately harm Pakistan.

why don't the phauji get off their high horse and stop being arrogant? since they think themselves as some demi gods?

why don't the phauji respect the people who are majority and now don't side with them! These people pay the taxes that keeps their weapons functioning.

all that s#it you wrote is exactly that s#it.

good attempt at cleaning the junta's toilets.

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,
What I’m most scared of….
PPP coming back even in Punjab with the army’s blessings
They turned Karachi into a wasteland what will they do to every other part of the country?

Imagine them bringing PPP in Punjab. The only somewhat liveable province in the country & it will turn into another disaster zone.

Plus the idea of Bilawal as PM? We will actually be a banana republic.

 

[Mustang125]

funny snide from the supporter of the military junta that thinks its the pharaohs of egypt. Tell me one time in history where the likes of phaji junta survived? well it doesn't survive.


you write so much dung and manure and then keep taking another dump.

one thing since its the harami phauji's that retain power by hook and crook and since they have driven Pakistan into the toilet.

The ones that pull strings behind the scenes and now exposed. Generations of people will hate them and that will ultimately harm Pakistan.

why don't the phauji get off their high horse and stop being arrogant? since they think themselves as some demi gods?

why don't the phauji respect the people who are majority and now don't side with them! These people pay the taxes that keeps their weapons functioning.

all that s#it you wrote is exactly that s#it.

good attempt at cleaning the junta's toilets.

This boomer has an intense hate for Imran Khan it is clear. When you (meaning the boomer) start bringing in personal biases and start name calling out of pure hatred and nonsense. That is when you’re just a ranting old man who has seen the “golden” times of military rule and corruption by the two parties and effectively are opposed to any change. Sadly such thinking also reflects in the people in power all boomers who are so set in their ways. You don’t believe me? Try having an intellectual discussion with a boomer or uncle and watch how quickly it will turn into an argument lol.

 

[Path-Finder]

This boomer has an intense hate for Imran Khan it is clear. When you (meaning the boomer) start bringing in personal biases and start name calling out of pure hatred and nonsense. That is when you’re just a ranting old man who has seen the “golden” times of military rule and corruption by the two parties and effectively are opposed to any change. Sadly such thinking also reflects in the people in power all boomers who are so set in their ways. You don’t believe me? Try having an intellectual discussion with a boomer or uncle and watch how quickly it will turn into an argument lol.

Few weeks ago I was at the Mosque for Friday prayer and there were these traditional budday babay. Again talking nonce nonsense like @Meengla does. some of their dire garbage heap was what do young people know? these budday harami and their generation know best apparently that's why Pakistan is in the s#it.

While those budday were talking claptrap some youngsters sitting opposite were laughing at their conversation. the budday babay were again praising the junta and talking s#it against Khan.

The problem is where these budday reside i.e The UK. The UK prioritises the young generation to take UK forward and so does the world at large.

But in Pakistan these khabees budday keep Pakistan in the dark ages and supress the young. That's where the junta has lapsed after keeping Pakistani quom hungry and ignorant. because educated people can get the better of people like the junta.

That's why the junta needs to restrict internet to keep their narrative on top but no longer managing it.

God willing the junta will fall either from within or externally. how the junta falls one day will be beyond their control.

I spent years of my life arguing with Bengali's on 1971. Today does anyone doubt that these harami junta were the reason why Pakistan was broken into two? Not anymore.

But @Meengla can easily blame Khan for that too.