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PM IK again visited ISI headquarters - 3rd June 2020

No, this is from multiple people who have served for decades (and two who are currently serving) in the ISI.

What results are we seeing from him or anyone else these days? Who is behind bars? Which mafias have been broken? Where does the morally righteous freedom struggle of the Occupied Kashmiris stand?

ok.........

so what?..

people have reservations all time it does not mean they are correct.


What is important is quality western educated Pakistanis start joining the ranks. Whether Mr Moeed is good or not only time will tell. In general western educated Pakistanis and who have work experience in quality institutions/entities tend to have good work ethics, productivity and value generation as they can make a very positive contribution to Pakistan.
 
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ok.........

so what?..

people have reservations all time it does not mean they are correct.


What is important is quality western educated Pakistanis start joining the ranks. Whether Mr Moeed is good or not only time will tell. In general western educated Pakistanis and who have work experience in quality institution have better work ethics, productivity and value generation and they can make a very positive contribution to Pakistan.

1.) I did not say they are correct. Though I personally do feel they are.

2.) He isn't from a highly competitive / top Western uni --- I would say our top kids from NUST, LUMS, QAU, GIKI have an amazing work ethic and, since some professors still are great in their fields (and have learnt from heavyweights in Western unis during their time pursuing doctoral studies abroad in the 70s and 80s.) I think a solid grounding in Western educational standards and work life does have some benefits, just as you mentioned. But it's not so black and white...
 
1.) I did not say they are correct. Though I personally do feel they are.

2.) He isn't from a highly competitive / top Western uni --- I would say our top kids from NUST, LUMS, QAU, GIKI have an amazing work ethic and, since some professors still are great in their fields (and have learnt from heavyweights in Western unis during their time pursuing doctoral studies abroad in the 70s and 80s.) I think a solid grounding in Western educational standards and work life does have some benefits, just as you mentioned. But it's not so black and white...


Re : where ever Moeed has done his education i have always found analysis first rate. You dont get to be Imran Khan's advisor just because you can make some sweets, he wasnt an MPA etc where Khan had to compromise like in the case of others. Like i said only time will tell if he delivers... for all our sakes i hope they do.

While true western education is no guarantee of success however the work environment is decisive. Although i worked around the world i was seconded to Pakistan operations for some time and the work ethic and peformance reminded me of Nigeria. Working in US / western work environment is something else. Productively, deliverance and value generation is paramount.

GIKI/LUMS etc is Pakistan "good".. one just has look at their global ratings. Only PAF or some branches of Pakistan Army like SSG are considered world class institutions as what they have done is recognized globally as a institution. Such as the Swat ops. it was so impressive it was a text book case that is even thought /studied in western military /schools/think tanks.

Think how many research publications etc have these institution GIKI etc done compared to western counter parts? as an example...how many technical break throughs etc . (note do not confuse with individual technically brilliant professionals which i am sure exist)...
 
Re : where ever Moeed has done his education i have always found analysis first rate. You dont get to be Imran Khan's advisor just because you can make some sweets, he wasnt an MPA etc where Khan had to compromise like in the case of others. Like i said only time will tell if he delivers... for all our sakes i hope they do.

While true western education is no guarantee of success however the work environment is decisive. Although i worked around the world i was seconded to Pakistan operations for some time and the work ethic and peformance reminded me of Nigeria. Working in US / western work environment is something else. Productively, deliverance and value generation is paramount.

GIKI/LUMS etc is Pakistan "good".. one just has look at their global ratings. Only PAF or some branches of Pakistan Army like SSG are considered world class institutions as what they have done is recognized globally as a institution. Such as the Swat ops. it was so impressive it was a text book case that is even thought /studied in western military /schools/think tanks.

Think how many research publications etc have these institution GIKI etc done compared to western counter parts? as an example...how many technical break throughs etc . (note do not confuse with individual technically brilliant professionals which i am sure exist)...

1.) While his analysis is no doubt first rate (and, might I add, he's a very sharp guy), we have no shortage of good analysts. The real issue is in the lack of will to implement aggressive solution at PMO and GHQ. It really is scary when both are doves (more or less.) However, I do agree that it's good to have non-bureaucratic thinking and some original ideas which I hope he is bringing. We actually prayed together at the Secretariat a few months ago and had a chat afterwards --- he's smart.

2.) Absolutely agree that our universities rank nowhere globally. I was not comparing the academic output of these with top global centers of learning --- I was just saying that there are centers / islands of excellence (as you also pointed out) and that they do have a lot of rigor in their studies.

3.) The few brilliant ones are all we need in key posts. I know a girl from GIKI who went for her masters and then PhD at MIT (currently completing her doctorate) with a perfect GPA at all institutions. We have no mechanism to tap them for national security positions (this is something I've tried to improve but nobody is interested.)

Overall, I think we're on the same page :)
 
1.) While his analysis is no doubt first rate (and, might I add, he's a very sharp guy), we have no shortage of good analysts. The real issue is in the lack of will to implement aggressive solution at PMO and GHQ. It really is scary when both are doves (more or less.) However, I do agree that it's good to have non-bureaucratic thinking and some original ideas which I hope he is bringing. We actually prayed together at the Secretariat a few months ago and had a chat afterwards --- he's smart.

2.) Absolutely agree that our universities rank nowhere globally. I was not comparing the academic output of these with top global centers of learning --- I was just saying that there are centers / islands of excellence (as you also pointed out) and that they do have a lot of rigor in their studies.

3.) The few brilliant ones are all we need in key posts. I know a girl from GIKI who went for her masters and then PhD at MIT (currently completing her doctorate) with a perfect GPA at all institutions. We have no mechanism to tap them for national security positions (this is something I've tried to improve but nobody is interested.)

Overall, I think we're on the same page :)


The question of doves .... it isn’t easy being a lion on a empty stomach.

I personally think both Imran and Bajwa are strong, brave and upright men and trying to their best with what they have.

yes some of Pakistan’s behavior might seem “dovish” to you ... however think what sensible Americans and Indians think. They think under Imran Pakistan has become one gutsy country.

a dovish country does not counter attack a neighbor 3 times their strength. That too in broad day light.

a dovish county does not tell America on it is face you failed in Afghanistan and you need to leave.

A dovish country does not stand infront of the entire UN and tell it something that shakes their spine. Ie tells them they are shameless two faced people.

A spineless country does not put a radical intolerant foul mouth mullah ie Kadam Rizwi behind a military prison for six months. Some thing no government has ever done. The last government just hid till Faud chaudry had to call them out...

a spineless leader doesn’t bitch slap trump insane tweets ... ever heard any nasty tweets from trump on Pakistan since Imran counter tweets?


I can continue to site examples... if you like
 
The question of doves .... it isn’t easy being a lion on a empty stomach.

I personally think both Imran and Bajwa are strong, brave and upright men and trying to their best with what they have.

yes some of Pakistan’s behavior might seem “dovish” to you ... however think what sensible Americans and Indians think. They think under Imran Pakistan has become one gutsy country.

a dovish country does not counter attack a neighbor 3 times their strength. That too in broad day light.

a dovish county does not tell America on it is face you failed in Afghanistan and you need to leave.

A dovish country does not stand infront of the entire UN and tell it something that shakes their spine. Ie tells them they are shameless two faced people.

A spineless country does not put a radical intolerant foul mouth mullah ie Kadam Rizwi behind a military prison for six months. Some thing no government has ever done. The last government just hid till Faud chaudry had to call them out...

a spineless leader doesn’t bitch slap trump insane tweets ... ever heard any nasty tweets from trump on Pakistan since Imran counter tweets?


I can continue to site examples... if you like

You are clearly the Docile Duo type dove as well --- i.e. you define a very, very low and almost laughable threshold of what being a hawk is and then claim that you are not a dove because that very low bar is met.

Let me break your examples down:

1.) The Indians DO NOT think that Pakistan has become some super gutsy country under IK. Our Armed Forces would have responded to last Feb's Indian incursion whether the civ govt had given the green light or not (let's not pretend that the PM is the real Commander in Chief in this country) --- so there was nothing too crazy about that. We happened to do very well. A hawk would have shot down all locked Indian planes about to ingress into Pakistan. We shot two. A hawk duo in the ISB/RWP would have kept the monkey Abhinandan for AT LEAST a week to prove that they aren't just capitulating to Indian pressure of escalation.

2.) Talk is cheap. We have been undermining American interests in Afghanistan for over a decade so, again, that is nothing new or specific to this current Docile Duo. We have "told" the US many such things for a very long time --- including before they invaded Afghanistan.

3.) Pakistan has a rich history of controversial claims at the UN. Nawaz Sharif almost exclusively eulogized Burhan Wani, a man deemed a terrorist by India and much of the world (of course I personally think he is a noble freedom fighter); should we conclude that Nawaz is a hawk as well?

4.) Again, you are mistaken. Under the N League, the entire LeJ leadership was not just put behind bars for a few months but eliminated in a legendary op. Everybody said it would result in a huge sectarian civil war etc etc etc --- but the govt took a stand and it happened (they even killed the Home Minister in a retaliation suicide bombing.) Before that, we retook Swat and FATA back from such radicals. Simultaneously, we cleansed KHI of anti-State and radical elements under the Rangers Op. And before that, we conducted a raid on another radical in the heart of Islamabad --- remember Lal Masjid? Also, please don't forget that the current DG ISI signed a deal with Khadim Rizvi to get him to leave Pakistan. Then, months later, when he again engaged in agitation --- his mobs were allowed to destroy property, burns car and cause mass unrest till finally there was a crackdown and eventually he was also arrested. I think any country would do that. A HAWK duo would have crushed this bastard at the very first instance, not done a f*cking deal with him while he was occupying Islamabad. Please open your eyes.

5.) Trump tweets are more for domestic consumption and Trump couldn't give a rat's *** about IK's Twitter responses. Again, talk is cheap.

@Stealth , please explain to this young man how real hawks operate. IOK is the perfect example. You are probably cheering for the government's pathetic and weak response that consists of nothing other than "raising our voices." That's BULLSHIT. All govts have to do that because of our historic connection to the Kashmir issue --- there's nothing special in that. We actively decided to let Kashmir drown in Indian atrocities and we can never be forgiven for it.

Take care.
 
The question of doves .... it isn’t easy being a lion on a empty stomach.

I personally think both Imran and Bajwa are strong, brave and upright men and trying to their best with what they have.

yes some of Pakistan’s behavior might seem “dovish” to you ... however think what sensible Americans and Indians think. They think under Imran Pakistan has become one gutsy country.

a dovish country does not counter attack a neighbor 3 times their strength. That too in broad day light.

a dovish county does not tell America on it is face you failed in Afghanistan and you need to leave.

A dovish country does not stand infront of the entire UN and tell it something that shakes their spine. Ie tells them they are shameless two faced people.

A spineless country does not put a radical intolerant foul mouth mullah ie Kadam Rizwi behind a military prison for six months. Some thing no government has ever done. The last government just hid till Faud chaudry had to call them out...

a spineless leader doesn’t bitch slap trump insane tweets ... ever heard any nasty tweets from trump on Pakistan since Imran counter tweets?


I can continue to site examples... if you like

Great post. You took the mickey out of the fellow. As a foreigner, I've never seen a Pakistan stronger, more united and more influential.
I remember when Zardari was treated like a criminal (which he is) by the Chinese and at that time Pak's respect was an all time low. Today, Pak-China has never been stronger and the relationship more dignified.
I remember how Pak officials behaved with the US. Reminded me of Doby the House Elf. For the first time, I've found Pak has put the Americans, politely but firmly in their place.
The people with a disease in their heads and heart will not understand this because they are blinded by their disease. But as they say - the caravan moves on...
 
.) The Indians DO NOT think that Pakistan has become some super gutsy country under IK.


read carefully what i said..."sensible indians"

A hawk would have shot down all locked Indian planes about to ingress into Pakistan.

not sure if you ever been in a leadership position. In general there are alot of compromises one has to make. Yes we could have shot down more planes.. but then what?.. indians would have been boxed into more escalation. Thus you made bad situation worse.

That is exactly what i am guessing the hard choices the leadership at that time had to make. The indians were hit perfectly in a manner that enabled them not to respond and simply back down.
 
Finally, a pro-Army person who understands that this "docile duo" isn't going to get the job done.

There's a famous Chinese quote about people who always talk being the least dangerous while silent people are the quiet killers. The assassin in the room is always the silent one.

I think it is quite true.

Imran Khan talks a lot but he is a paper tiger.

Musharraf did not talk a lot but he was nightmare of India.
 
. A hawk duo in the ISB/RWP would have kept the monkey Abhinandan for AT LEAST a week to prove that they aren't just capitulating to Indian pressure of escalation.


that is one way of looking.. but Abi release also triggered indian climb down facilitated by the americans
 
that is one way of looking.. but Abi release also triggered indian climb down facilitated by the americans

I think mistake was not releasing him early but that we didn't get anything in exchange
 
We have "told" the US many such things for a very long time --- including before they invaded Afghanistan.


Yes.. but no body listened for what ever reason.... either through poor PR or deliberate dubious policy..

The difference was IK gave clear strategic policy..after that the double game narrative pretty much died down.
 
The question of doves .... it isn’t easy being a lion on a empty stomach.

I personally think both Imran and Bajwa are strong, brave and upright men and trying to their best with what they have.

yes some of Pakistan’s behavior might seem “dovish” to you ... however think what sensible Americans and Indians think. They think under Imran Pakistan has become one gutsy country.

a dovish country does not counter attack a neighbor 3 times their strength. That too in broad day light.

a dovish county does not tell America on it is face you failed in Afghanistan and you need to leave.

A dovish country does not stand infront of the entire UN and tell it something that shakes their spine. Ie tells them they are shameless two faced people.

A spineless country does not put a radical intolerant foul mouth mullah ie Kadam Rizwi behind a military prison for six months. Some thing no government has ever done. The last government just hid till Faud chaudry had to call them out...

a spineless leader doesn’t bitch slap trump insane tweets ... ever heard any nasty tweets from trump on Pakistan since Imran counter tweets?


I can continue to site examples... if you like
Everyone knows that imran is just a puppet of the Pakistan army and has practically zero powers. You can spin it all you want but Pakistan is just being used because of its location. Once Americans withdraw substantially from Afghanistan, their remaining troops can be supplied by air and Pakistan would lose whatever importance it feels .
 
Under the N League, the entire LeJ leadership was not just put behind bars for a few months but eliminated in a legendary op.


lol... nawaz pitu... lol....

You do know Gen Raheel had to force Nawaz's hand to initiate the operation against TTP in 2014.

Literally... for people who know , know exactly what Raheel did to Nawaz in his PM office. Love Gen Raheel.

i dont even want to see you comments on Nawaz on his force read UN speech.

Everyone knows that imran is just a puppet of the Pakistan army and has practically zero powers.


in your heads sure.

You can spin it all you want but Pakistan is just being used because of its location.


like US is using India against China...

Once Americans withdraw substantially from Afghanistan, their remaining troops can be supplied by air and Pakistan would lose whatever importance it feels .


U do know they are still being supplied by air corridor provided by Pakistan?...

I think mistake was not releasing him early but that we didn't get anything in exchange


It was PM IK insistence to defuse the crisis... the pilot was part of the deal.
 
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PTI govt has dragged army too much into civilian matters. This probably has to do with covid 19 and ISI software or a briefing on rival politicians.
Or it could be about the price on your head for talking out of your hat
 

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