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PLAAF's 6th Gen Fighter?

Wow full of BS....:coffee:

Look at the J-11B's features and look a the MKI's features.

The facts are the facts.

Calling them "bullshit" will only reveal your lack of knowledge of them.

Or should I compare them again, just for you?:undecided:
 
let me make this crystal clear to you chinese fanboys, China can't even build something close to the MKis capabilities now you wish to compete with U.S.A F-22 and future USA 6th gen fighters?....:rofl:

the sad part is, even our J-6's are enough to make nicaraguans run to the US as illegal immigrants.
 

Weapons:
- 30 mm cannon
- 8 X R-77PD missiles (internal weapons bay)
- PL-9 missiles
- Max 18,075 lb payload
- 6 hardpoints (in internal bay)
- Electronic warfare module



Why would 6th generation jet require canon?
 
Why would 6th generation jet require canon?

Got any better ideas for main weapon?

Ion cannons?
Laser guns?

For 800+ years, the world has been using guns. I don't see any change from that in the foreseeable future.
 
Because the standards are made up by him.

It they were made by me, then the plane would fly at Mach 20 and carry antimatter cannons. Then, of course, it would carry a beer fridge. :blah:
 
I don't know how credible your reports are since most everything surrounding Chinese aircraft is speculation but let me address you.



Hmm, let's see the aircraft that currently outperforms the MKI...

- J-11B. Can track & engage more targets than MKI.



Tracking more targets mean little if you can't detect, engage and differentiate them. Assume you are within effective firing range and the radar you have gives you a high enough resolution to differentiate targets, now suppose your radar allows you to fire simultaneously at multiple targets...that's great but what if the other aircraft keeps jamming you?

Can fly faster,



This doesn't make much of a difference, especially if the difference is negligible.




more maneuverable,



Please do provide the J-11's roll rate, sustained turn rate, ect so we see for ourselves.


It is much stealthier than MKI. It has RAM coating and MKI doesn't. J-11B will soon install AESA radar.:tongue::tongue:
Oh, and we have the J-11BS strike version with 15+ hardpoints.



Is there a credible source which quotes its rcs or is this from a fanboy website?


Ooh, how bout the J-10B? :what::what::what:
Let's see...


It has 0.3 RCS, which is much much stealthier than MKI (in fact almost comparable to F-35).



I guess the Mig-21 is also comparable to the F-35 because it has the same rcs.


It has AESA radar (MKI doesn't)



Based on what? Fanboy reports?



And J-10B has 3d thrust vectoring!



More fanboy speculation?


And don't get me started on the J-15...



Please tell me what the fanboys churned up this time.



BTW, the F-15 defeated the Su-30MKI quite badly during the Red Flag exercises.:disagree:


And the basic SU-30 defeated the F-15 at cope, there are many factors in both exercises you are not aware of such as experience levels and radars being in training mode, just to name a few.



Why don't you listen to what this Red Flag pilot has to say about your so-called "4.5-generation" fighter: :disagree:



Are you talking about the part when he said the MKI was slightly better than legacy US fighters but inferior to the F-22?
 
I don't know how credible your reports are since most everything surrounding Chinese aircraft is speculation but let me address you.





Tracking more targets mean little if you can't detect, engage and differentiate them. Assume you are within effective firing range and the radar you have gives you a high enough resolution to differentiate targets, now suppose your radar allows you to fire simultaneously at multiple targets...that's great but what if the other aircraft keeps jamming you?





This doesn't make much of a difference, especially if the difference is negligible.








Please do provide the J-11's roll rate, sustained turn rate, ect so we see for ourselves.






Is there a credible source which quotes its rcs or is this from a fanboy website?






I guess the Mig-21 is also comparable to the F-35 because it has the same rcs.






Based on what? Fanboy reports?







More fanboy speculation?






Please tell me what the fanboys churned up this time.






And the basic SU-30 defeated the F-15 at cope, there are many factors in both exercises you are not aware of such as experience levels and radars being in training mode, just to name a few.







Are you talking about the part when he said the MKI was slightly better than legacy US fighters but inferior to the F-22?

The J-11B's radar is designed for counter-jamming (just like most other radars). With upgraded BVR capability, the indigenous J-11B radar can engage multiple targets at very long range. The J-11B also has a very small RCS (only 3 m squared). At long range, this is virtually all-stealth. This means that the J-11B can shoot down enemy aircraft without being detected. The J-11B's radar also has jamming capability, so the enemy will also be getting a bit of his own soup.

J-11B, first of all, is lighter than the Su-30MKI (20% lighter). 70% of the J-11B is made of composite materials (as opposed to the Su-30MKI). This already gives it a serious agility advantage. Su-30MKI has a turning rate of 21 degrees/sec.
The J-11B also has a much higher climb rate than the Su-30MKI

J-11B's engine also has higher dry thrust than the Su-30MKI's engines.

J-11B's RCS is 3 m squared (achieved by application of redesigned intakes and RAM), while the Su-30MKI has an RCS of 25+ m squared.

The sole reason the MiG-21 has a small RCS is because it is small. J-10B is larger, and it achieves that RCS by applying DSI and RAM. The Su-30MKI is (1) large, and (2) doesn't apply reflection-reduction technologies.

AESA radar is planned to be installed on the J-11B, according to Chinese reports.

J-10B uses the WS-10B engine, and if you know aviation engines well, you would know that not only does the WS-10B has 135 kN thrust, it has 3d thrust vectoring as well.

Oh yes, by the way, the J-15 is essentially a naval J-11B upgrade. Thinking fanboy? Go search up J-15 avionics.

As for the video, I referred to the part when the pilot speaks about the maddenly low turning rate of the Su-30MKI, its blaring RCS, its inability to communicate with aircraft with its datalink, and its inability to locate the battle.
 
The Design looks more like LOCKHEED F-19 STEALTH FIGHTER

revell_f-19a_144.jpg


 
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I'm not here to argue that the J-11 is worse or MKI better, I’m here to correct you on your preconceived notions. This is where my problem is, you make assertions of having an advantage in air superiority based on the most trivial things such as being faster and lighter, you also failed to verify any of the claims and until this happens many claims can be regarded as speculation, and don't waste your time giving me a link to a blog.



The J-11B's radar is designed for counter-jamming (just like most other radars).



The MKI uses the ELTA jamming pods, those pods rendered Bisons nearly impossible to track according to US pilots, case in point, the MKI used one of the finest and most proven jammers on the market, so while an aircraft is designed to overcome counter measures often times it will fail.



With upgraded BVR capability, the indigenous J-11B radar can engage multiple targets at very long range.


Just about any aircraft can engage other aircraft at long ranges, the problem is will the other aircraft allow this to happen? Other aircraft such as the MKI have powerful radars coupled with powerful counter measures. Now introduce awacs and the situation is allot more complicated that just engaging targets at very long ranges. Aircraft are also limited by their air-to-air armament, if an aircraft is armed with a 70-100km A2A missile it will likely not fire until ~35-50km, the reason for this is because the average 70-100km range is under ideal circumstances meaning both aircraft are coming at each other heads on, this simply does not happen in real combat, what happens is that the aircraft that is fired upon turned and in doing so it causes the inbound missile to change course and expend precious fuel, in doing so the missiles range is cut drastically. What I’m getting at is the J-11 will have to get with in effective firing range, so by the time this happens the BARS will have a lock, actually even before 70km it should pick up a 3m2 target.


The J-11B also has a very small RCS (only 3 m squared). At long range, this is virtually all-stealth.





3m2 is the frontal rcs, the belly, side, and rear will have considerably larger figures. Most importantly is that this is in a clean configuration, obviously like all other aircraft the J-11 carries it's weapons externally, so the 3m2 rcs will increase.




J-11B, first of all, is lighter than the Su-30MKI (20% lighter). 70% of the J-11B is made of composite materials (as opposed to the Su-30MKI). This already gives it a serious agility advantage.



No it does not, the mki gets allot of its maneuverability from canards as well as TVC, and fly-by-wire. The J-11 does not have canards, and does the J-11 have TVC? Possible, but I don't take fanboys claims as proof. I also know that weki is unreliable, it states that the SU-35 is also 20% heavier than it really is, chances are the MKI's real weight is also inaccurate.


Su-30MKI has a turning rate of 21 degrees/sec.
The J-11B also has a much higher climb rate than the Su-30MKI



Yet you fail to provide the complete list of performance I asked for, if you make a claim such as x aircraft is more maneuverable than Y aircraft than you better prove it.


J-11B's RCS is 3 m squared (achieved by application of redesigned intakes and RAM), while the Su-30MKI has an RCS of 25+ m squared.



Actually its about 15-20M2.


The sole reason the MiG-21 has a small RCS is because it is small. J-10B is larger, and it achieves that RCS by applying DSI and RAM. The Su-30MKI is (1) large, and (2) doesn't apply reflection-reduction technologies.



It's not about size it's about surface area.



J-10B uses the WS-10B engine, and if you know aviation engines well, you would know that not only does the WS-10B has 135 kN thrust, it has 3d thrust vectoring as well.



The WS-10 is still a new engine that had a history of setbacks and design problems and I’m supposed to believe that there is already an improved version that's fully operational and produces 135kn thrust? Things don't work that way. If there is a such thing as a WS-10B it is a long way from being fully operational. Of course i could be wrong but common sense, logic, and most importantly previous projects would say otherwise.

As for the video, I referred to the part when the pilot speaks about the maddenly low turning rate of the Su-30MKI, its blaring RCS, its inability to communicate with aircraft with its datalink, and its inability to locate the battle.



The MKI can turn just fine, the problem was the Indians tried showing off too much by going into post stall maneuvers, as for data-link if I recall correctly the Indian side used US awacs, hence they were confused, with Falcon feeding the MKI in it's native language there shouldn't be nearly as much confusion. Why do you even bring up datlink issues? For all you know Chinese datalink can be far worse.
 
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I'm not here to argue that the J-11 is worse or MKI better, I’m here to correct you on your preconceived notions. This is where my problem is, you make assertions of having an advantage in air superiority based on the most trivial things such as being faster and lighter, you also failed to verify any of the claims and until this happens many claims can be regarded as speculation, and don't waste your time giving me a link to a blog.





The MKI uses the ELTA jamming pods, those pods rendered Bisons nearly impossible to track according to US pilots, case in point, the MKI used one of the finest and most proven jammers on the market, so while an aircraft is designed to overcome counter measures often times it will fail.






Just about any aircraft can engage other aircraft at long ranges, the problem is will the other aircraft allow this to happen? Other aircraft such as the MKI have powerful radars coupled with powerful counter measures. Now introduce awacs and the situation is allot more complicated that just engaging targets at very long ranges. Aircraft are also limited by their air-to-air armament, if an aircraft is armed with a 70-100km A2A missile it will likely not fire until ~35-50km, the reason for this is because the average 70-100km range is under ideal circumstances meaning both aircraft are coming at each other heads on, this simply does not happen in real combat, what happens is that the aircraft that is fired upon turned and in doing so it causes the inbound missile to change course and expend precious fuel, in doing so the missiles range is cut drastically. What I’m getting at is the J-11 will have to get with in effective firing range, so by the time this happens the BARS will have a lock, actually even before 70km it should pick up a 3m2 target.








3m2 is the frontal rcs, the belly, side, and rear will have considerably larger figures. Most importantly is that this is in a clean configuration, obviously like all other aircraft the J-11 carries it's weapons externally, so the 3m2 rcs will increase.








No it does not, the mki gets allot of its maneuverability from canards as well as TVC, and fly-by-wire. The J-11 does not have canards, and does the J-11 have TVC? Possible, but I don't take fanboys claims as proof. I also know that weki is unreliable, it states that the SU-35 is also 20% heavier than it really is, chances are the MKI's real weight is also inaccurate.






Yet you fail to provide the complete list of performance I asked for, if you make a claim such as x aircraft is more maneuverable than Y aircraft than you better prove it.






Actually its about 15-20M2.






It's not about size it's about surface area.







The WS-10 is still a new engine that had a history of setbacks and design problems and I’m supposed to believe that there is already an improved version that's fully operational and produces 135kn thrust? Things don't work that way. If there is a such thing as a WS-10B it is a long way from being fully operational. Of course i could be wrong but common sense, logic, and most importantly previous projects would say otherwise.





The MKI can turn just fine, the problem was the Indians tried showing off too much by going into post stall maneuvers, as for data-link if I recall correctly the Indian side used US awacs, hence they were confused, with Falcon feeding the MKI in it's native language there shouldn't be nearly as much confusion. Why do you even bring up datlink issues? For all you know Chinese datalink can be far worse.

I'm not saying which plane is better. I'm simply stating the J-11B's advantages over the MKI (I'm pretty sure the MKI has advantages over the J-11B, too).

Yes, MKI uses jamming pods. But the J-11B has jamming capability as well, and it's new radar has built-in jamming function. The J-11B's jammer hasn't been publicized yet, so you can't really say that the MKI's jammer will outperform the J-11B's jammer. And both planes have anti-jamming capability, so we would have to consider that as well.

It is always an advantage to have longer range, even if the enemy has countermeasures. Longer range not only gives advantages to weapons, but to your own reaction time as well, and it gives you less compromise. It really depends on whether you are defending or you are attacking. If you are defending, you would have AWACS (like you mentioned), and probably SAMs as well. If you are attacking, long-range, combined with stand-off weapons, gives you much advantage.

Effective firing range is directly proportional to the maximum range of the missile. It is also affected by your radar. But this is the missile's problem. The Su-30MKI will be detected before the J-11B, because its RCS is eight times that of the J-11B. So even if the radar has a longer tracking range (assuming), it would be no good if it can't get a good lock.

...which brings to the next topic, rcs...

The J-11B's RCS is < 3 m squared is the J-11B's average RCS. The 25 m squared RCS of the Su-30MKI is eight times that. Even if the 3 m2 RCS is in clean configuration, it gives the plane a huge advantage over the Su-30MKI's RCS. Again, this will affect the performance of the radar, especially at long ranges.

Canards not necessarily make an aircraft much more maneuverable. It might be used to compensate for the weight of the aircraft. The Su-30MKI is 20% heavier than the J-11B. This puts a lot of stress on the thrust (which is not as high as the J-11B's). And the T/W ratio is not as high as the J-11B (less acceleration). In short, even if we assume that the canards and TVC boosts its maneuverability by a lot, it will be compromised by its heavy weight and lower thrust-to-weight ratio.

J-11B was never planned to incorporate TVC. Where did you hear that?

...which brings me to the next topic, the WS-10B...

The WS-10 engine has been produced and in fact the J-11BS strike variants use the WS-10A engine. WS-10A will be extended to J-10A fighters in the next year or so.

The WS-10B and WS-10G were built in the year after. Being variants, development didn't take very long. The WS-10B and WS-10G has achieved Fighter Installation status as of 2009.

The WS-15 prototype has already been tested for over a year now, so I don't understand why it is so hard to believe that the WS-10B variants exist.
 
This really looks like out of some university student's designs nothing more - ...
 

Sino If J11B is that great why China is going for purchase of su-35? If you have a better product than MKI what is the need for Su-35 instead you can produce more of J11B right?..

Your A/C might look great in spec but what is the reality?
 
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