PIA getting over 20 aircrafts in coming months

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@WishLivePak
PIA also operates B777-200ER and 300ER on NY flights as they have to land in manchester enroute. B777-200 LR only does the Toronto flights which are direct.Remember PIA has only 2 B777-200LR's so they are fully utilized due to the schedule they are operating.
PIA does not have permission to fly direct to US because of security reasons.

LR or ULR flights have many pros and less cons. Hence they are profitable. For this the aircraft manufacturers have optimised the aircraft so that it is more economical.

To further enhance your knowledge of Point to Point or Hub to Hub travel please see:
The Difference: Hub and Spoke vs. Point to Point - The Networker

In yesteryear PIA used to fly B707 to Rahim Yar Khan with a local procedure that was not recommended. Today aircraft are available which are customised for such flights.

The new B777s that PIA has acquired are going to be the replacement of B747's. B737's were to be replaced by B737-800's but PIA was unable to get Boeings approval to change the order of B777's into B737's.

An other interesting read for operational costs of an aircraft:
http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCC-2014-ATH/D1/1630-1700-impact-ops-lease-SGI.pdf

 

[LonE_WolF]

can some one plz tell me about market share of different airlines operating in Pakistan?
because i'm unable to find it.

@Oscar , @farhan_9909 , @Horus

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

can some one plz tell me about market share of different airlines operating in Pakistan?
because i'm unable to find it.

@Oscar , @farhan_9909 , @Horus

CAA Pakistan website is giving 2008-2009 statistics.
http://124.29.236.151/AviationStatistics/MTF by Airlines 2008_09.pdf

For further information
:: CAA Pakistan ::

 

[LonE_WolF]

@ACE OF THE AIR thanks for your reply. but that's old data. I need data of 2012-13.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@ACE OF THE AIR thanks for your reply. but that's old data. I need data of 2012-13.

There is HQ CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY MONTHLY DOMESTIC CARRIERS' AIR TRANSPORT RETURN
but it is not published for the public.
May be CAA has not yet compiled these to find out what is the current market share of all the airlines.

 

[LonE_WolF]

well i've found an article but don't know how authentic it is.

Shaheen, Airblue batter PIA on international, local fronts | Pakistan News Today

 

[razgriz19]

It's more about balance between engine cycles too.

Too many long routes is bad. Too many short routes is bad. So they balance it. The a380 that flies from dubai to jeddah will fly next from dubai to LA. Sadly, PIA doesn't operate such routes and is limited to london. NY and Toronto are served by LRs.

1 of the 2 LR is sitting at Pearson Airport right now for repairs on its pressurization system...

 

[imiakhtar]

on hold for now.

It isn't on hold.

The plan is to make PIA as close to break even as possible (more attractive to buyers) and then divest a stake. \\\\\Whether that stake will be 20%, 40%+

not sure if PIA will exercise the rights,

Those 5 additional aircraft aren't needed.

In fact it could easily be argues that the 5 77W due next year aren't needed either and PIA should have swapped the deposits for 737 or 787 aircraft.

.how are they going to fill up the belly of 777s?

As you say, they can't fill them.

In fact, the current Boeing 777-200ER is operated at a Max Take Off Weight of 275t compared to maximum available of 298t because they don't need the excess capability or range offered by the 777.

which profitable long haul routes does PIA operate that it needs 5 more 777s?

Very few. Only UK and some Middle East routes are profitable.

Hence they are profitable.

Erm no.

More often than not, long haul flying is more expensive and less profitable for airlines.

Delta Airlines as is the case for all legacy US airlines makes most money on the domestic routes. Same case for Qantas and most other airlines.

but that's old data. I need data of 2012-13.

The data is available on PIA annual reports. Have a look at the corporate reports on piac.com.pk

(Airlines inf the EU tend to be the exception due to the extremely competitive nature of low cost carriors on regional routes)

 

[Donatello]

It isn't on hold.

The plan is to make PIA as close to break even as possible (more attractive to buyers) and then divest a stake. \\\\\Whether that stake will be 20%, 40%+



Those 5 additional aircraft aren't needed.

In fact it could easily be argues that the 5 77W due next year aren't needed either and PIA should have swapped the deposits for 737 or 787 aircraft.



As you say, they can't fill them.

In fact, the current Boeing 777-200ER is operated at a Max Take Off Weight of 275t compared to maximum available of 298t because they don't need the excess capability or range offered by the 777.



Very few. Only UK and some Middle East routes are profitable.


Erm no.

More often than not, long haul flying is more expensive and less profitable for airlines.

Delta Airlines as is the case for all legacy US airlines makes most money on the domestic routes. Same case for Qantas and most other airlines.


The data is available on PIA annual reports. Have a look at the corporate reports on piac.com.pk

(Airlines inf the EU tend to be the exception due to the extremely competitive nature of low cost carriors on regional routes)

PIA is a dead case since 1990s. There is no need to splash cash on their widebodies when they have trouble maintaining and buying fuel for current ones. North American market is dead, so is far east. UK will be gone soon. 777s are of no use on short haul routes. Better to buy smaller, A320/737/ATR class planes and use them on the Middle east/local routes. Why does anyone travel PIA for Europe, is beyond me.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

More often than not, long haul flying is more expensive and less profitable for airlines.

Delta Airlines as is the case for all legacy US airlines makes most money on the domestic routes. Same case for Qantas and most other airlines.

Please calculate the yield factor for KHI-YYZ and then you would know if that route is profitable or not. For fare calculation you can take the IATA route manual.

 

[Sugarcane]

...now lets agree that rome wasnt built in a day

nero was fiddling while rome burnt same happened to PIA. Now let's not waste public money to feed white elephant. The money we spend on bailouts of PIA can be spent on providing more important things to mango man.

 

[asq]

PIA needs honest, aware and brilliant leaders to run and PIA failure is due to lack of honest leadership and of fair leadership.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

PIA is a dead case since 1990s. There is no need to splash cash on their widebodies when they have trouble maintaining and buying fuel for current ones. North American market is dead, so is far east. UK will be gone soon. 777s are of no use on short haul routes. Better to buy smaller, A320/737/ATR class planes and use them on the Middle east/local routes. Why does anyone travel PIA for Europe, is beyond me.

What you are saying is not entirely correct. We normally think that a smaller aircraft would be cost effective then a bigger aircraft but that is not the case. Normally aircraft are supposed to be profitable at 70% load factor, but this depends entirely how the calculations are based. Now lets take for example and aircraft with maximum payload of 1000 kg so we require 700 kg to be filed and an other aircraft of 10000 kg which requires 7000 kg. It seems that it would be easier to fill 700 kg than 7000 kg. We assume the average weight of a person to be 100 kg along with baggage. we have a total of 70 passengers that would fly from A to B per day.

In an aircraft that has a weight of 1000 kg we can take a maximum of 10 passenger per flight this means 7 frequencies hence more expenses. Where as we took 70 passengers in a 10000 kg aircraft with 3000 kg empty but the number of frequencies \ expenses were reduced by 6 times.

Now what if there was additional cargo that is also required to be flown. When you do the maths then a bigger aircraft become more economical.

 

[WishLivePak]

What you are saying is not entirely correct. We normally think that a smaller aircraft would be cost effective then a bigger aircraft but that is not the case. Normally aircraft are supposed to be profitable at 70% load factor, but this depends entirely how the calculations are based. Now lets take for example and aircraft with maximum payload of 1000 kg so we require 700 kg to be filed and an other aircraft of 10000 kg which requires 7000 kg. It seems that it would be easier to fill 700 kg than 7000 kg. We assume the average weight of a person to be 100 kg along with baggage. we have a total of 70 passengers that would fly from A to B per day.

In an aircraft that has a weight of 1000 kg we can take a maximum of 10 passenger per flight this means 7 frequencies hence more expenses. Where as we took 70 passengers in a 10000 kg aircraft with 3000 kg empty but the number of frequencies \ expenses were reduced by 6 times.

Now what if there was additional cargo that is also required to be flown. When you do the maths then a bigger aircraft become more economical.

ATRs to fly from lahore-islamabad will be quite profitable. Faster turn around, and more service.

You can have 1 a320 fly once a day with 180 passengers or you can use an atr to fly 3 times a day with 68 passengers. ATRs consume less fuel and passengers have more choice of when to fly. Plus faster turn around means less time spent on ground, which means more money to be made.

It isn't on hold.

The plan is to make PIA as close to break even as possible (more attractive to buyers) and then divest a stake. \\\\\Whether that stake will be 20%, 40%+



Those 5 additional aircraft aren't needed.

In fact it could easily be argues that the 5 77W due next year aren't needed either and PIA should have swapped the deposits for 737 or 787 aircraft.



As you say, they can't fill them.

In fact, the current Boeing 777-200ER is operated at a Max Take Off Weight of 275t compared to maximum available of 298t because they don't need the excess capability or range offered by the 777.



Very few. Only UK and some Middle East routes are profitable.


Erm no.

More often than not, long haul flying is more expensive and less profitable for airlines.

Delta Airlines as is the case for all legacy US airlines makes most money on the domestic routes. Same case for Qantas and most other airlines.


The data is available on PIA annual reports. Have a look at the corporate reports on piac.com.pk

(Airlines inf the EU tend to be the exception due to the extremely competitive nature of low cost carriors on regional routes)

Yeah i mentioned somewhere in this thread that PIA needed 787 or a330 to fly places like london paris frankfurt. Someone also said that PIA tried to convert the 777 order into 737. Would've been amazing if they were able to. they may have been able to get some 10 or even 15 737s and would not be floating tender for a320s every now and then.

@WishLivePak
PIA also operates B777-200ER and 300ER on NY flights as they have to land in manchester enroute. B777-200 LR only does the Toronto flights which are direct.Remember PIA has only 2 B777-200LR's so they are fully utilized due to the schedule they are operating.
PIA does not have permission to fly direct to US because of security reasons.

LR or ULR flights have many pros and less cons. Hence they are profitable. For this the aircraft manufacturers have optimised the aircraft so that it is more economical.

To further enhance your knowledge of Point to Point or Hub to Hub travel please see:
The Difference: Hub and Spoke vs. Point to Point - The Networker

In yesteryear PIA used to fly B707 to Rahim Yar Khan with a local procedure that was not recommended. Today aircraft are available which are customised for such flights.

The new B777s that PIA has acquired are going to be the replacement of B747's. B737's were to be replaced by B737-800's but PIA was unable to get Boeings approval to change the order of B777's into B737's.

An other interesting read for operational costs of an aircraft:
http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCC-2014-ATH/D1/1630-1700-impact-ops-lease-SGI.pdf

I've seen Nyc being server by LR only. Which aparently also flies to middle east sometimes.

However PIA doesn't really need the LR considering the 300er can fly easily to NY and Toronto.

 

[imiakhtar]

Please calculate the yield factor for KHI-YYZ and then you would know if that route is profitable or not. For fare calculation you can take the IATA route manual.

Unless I know what the rough operating cost per flight hour for a 777 operated by PIA is, the above is impossible even with the possession of LHE/KHI/ISB-YYZ flight plans which I have.

Additionally, I would need to have the up to date figures for ATS services, the crewing costs, pantry (catering uplift) costs, ground servicing costs, maintenance costs (engine reserves and other consumables like oil, hydraulic fluid etc).