PIA getting over 20 aircrafts in coming months

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Unless I know what the rough operating cost per flight hour for a 777 operated by PIA is, the above is impossible even with the possession of LHE/KHI/ISB-YYZ flight plans which I have.

Additionally, I would need to have the up to date figures for ATS services, the crewing costs, pantry (catering uplift) costs, ground servicing costs, maintenance costs (engine reserves and other consumables like oil, hydraulic fluid etc).

As far as PIA is concerned the actual costs are never made public. There are many gray areas for instance PIA pilot salaries are far less as compared to international standards. How ever they are considered very high in Pakistan. PIA imports fuel directly and also purchases from local sources so what it actually costs is not known. Lease documents are secret so it is difficult to actually know what the operational cost would be.

Civil aviation charges are available on PAKISTAN CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY ...:: www.caapakistan.com.pk ::..

 

[imiakhtar]

PIA imports fuel directly

The bulk of PIAs fuel is sourced directly from Pakistan state oil.

Pakistan state oil is supplied by National Refineries Limited.

National Refineries Limited imports most of the fuel from Saudi and Kuwait.

Lease documents are secret so it is difficult to actually know what the operational cost would be.

That is unless of course you have family in PIA management and you happen to know how many dollars PIA paid for each and every Boeing 777 and the additional CSP program

Suffice it to say however that lease costs in this context aren't important because apart from AP-BHX which is leased from ILFC, PIA owns the 777 fleet.

 

[WishLivePak]

The bulk of PIAs fuel is sourced directly from Pakistan state oil.

Pakistan state oil is supplied by National Refineries Limited.

National Refineries Limited imports most of the fuel from Saudi and Kuwait.



That is unless of course you have family in PIA management and you happen to know how many dollars PIA paid for each and every Boeing 777 and the additional CSP program

Suffice it to say however that lease costs in this context aren't important because apart from AP-BHX which is leased from ILFC, PIA owns the 777 fleet.

isn't bhx lease expiring next year?

I really hope they get more narrow body aircraft. most long range routes are dominated by middle east airlines. Fixing domestic and regional routes will be key for success. Emirates doesn't think it's worth to fly to quetta with a330, but pia can serve it with a320 at a premium (being non stop)

As far as PIA is concerned the actual costs are never made public. There are many gray areas for instance PIA pilot salaries are far less as compared to international standards. How ever they are considered very high in Pakistan. PIA imports fuel directly and also purchases from local sources so what it actually costs is not known. Lease documents are secret so it is difficult to actually know what the operational cost would be.

Civil aviation charges are available on PAKISTAN CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY ...:: www.caapakistan.com.pk ::..

they do disclose a lot of information. Also their fuel costs are very high.

They really need to retire the A310s in couple of years and put an order for 330neos or lease some old 330 for routes like kuala lumper, jeddah, istanbul, frankfurt, paris and birmingham.

777s can do far east like japan/china, london, americas

@imiakhtar would it be stupid for PIA to use the new 777s and give 777s on dry/wet lease? or give new ones on lease. I really don't think PIA needs more 777s (where would they fly? these are best for far places like americas, which are already served by LRs) and it'd be best to make some money on lease to pay for their debts or use that money to lease 330/787s

 

[ziaulislam]

very well, keep PIA and other govt institutes, spend billions of rupees every year on them , more than total health budget and education...and let common people rot and politician get fat on govt institutes..

 

[WishLivePak]

very well, keep PIA and other govt institutes, spend billions of rupees every year on them , more than total health budget and education...and let common people rot and politician get fat on govt institutes..

You realize that the money spent on these planes will result in more jobs, education, and passenger revenue to pay for it?

Health and education budget doesn't pay back in short term.

 

[xyxmt]

They don't have money to pay PSO for fuel for current fleet.......how are they going to fill up the belly of 777s?
And please tell me, which profitable long haul routes does PIA operate that it needs 5 more 777s?

Toronto! i think, I could never get a seat even two months in advance. but chances are high that its filled with ex-PIA mufteys

 

[Donatello]

Toronto! i think, I could never get a seat even two months in advance. but chances are high that its filled with ex-PIA mufteys

Yes, plus PIA doesn't have Daily North American flights. If i want to travel on a specific date for business, then my only option is ME3.....because they are doing double/triple daily to many cities in North America. Emirates has 6 flights from Karachi and then 4 towards New York i think. Which means i have a good chance of finding a seat and a good connection. Dubai/Doha aren't bad terminals to have 3-6 hour transit.

So our airports are now feeders for Middle eastern airlines. That's it. Long gone are the days when PIA flew multiple sectors and could fill up seats. Long range wide bodies have made point to point very easy.

 

[ziaulislam]

You realize that the money spent on these planes will result in more jobs, education, and passenger revenue to pay for it?

Health and education budget doesn't pay back in short term.

yup, history tells me it will, just like it has in the past

 

[imiakhtar]

would it be stupid for PIA to use the new 777s and give 777s on dry/wet lease? or give new ones on lease.

In all honesty, I don't know.

PIA will struggle to wet lease 777s out as the new aircraft are due sometime between August-December 2015 with 1 aircraft delivery per month.

The new 77W delivery will coincide with the low travel season so demand won't be high.

As far as dry leasing or selling the "old" 777s or new 77Ws foes, it depends on the price PIA wants for them. The market for new or used 777s is there and airlines such as Turkish and Etihad would happily take them off your hands - Etihad recently bought 5 B772LRs from Air India and Turkish is/was dry leasing 77Ws from Jet Airways.

 

[WishLivePak]

In all honesty, I don't know.

PIA will struggle to wet lease 777s out as the new aircraft are due sometime between August-December 2015 with 1 aircraft delivery per month.

The new 77W delivery will coincide with the low travel season so demand won't be high.

As far as dry leasing or selling the "old" 777s or new 77Ws foes, it depends on the price PIA wants for them. The market for new or used 777s is there and airlines such as Turkish and Etihad would happily take them off your hands - Etihad recently bought 5 B772LRs from Air India and Turkish is/was dry leasing 77Ws from Jet Airways.

If PIA can get the price they're paid, I really think they should sell it. They really need to make regional and domestic route better. Perhaps they can exchange the 777 slots with their 787/330neo slots.

Cuz really, the 777s will be doing break even or be utilized and leave the old 777 in dust as pia is too broke to fix old aircraft. 2 atr are yet to be repaired.

Reading about Turkish and Eithad, Eithad has 12 options for 300ERs and Turkish has 17 on order. Turkish also has 13 330s on order. Maybe PIA can swap the plane with some extra money being given. 330s will be far more profitable on routes such as Milan, Paris or Rome, which certainly doesn't need a big 777 flying there.

@imiakhtar you once said that PIA doesn't operate 10 abreast in 777s, which is true.

But why is that? I doubt many people are aware that PIA seats are more wide and comfortable (they don't even advertise the measurements!). So why won't they go with 10 abreast for at least economy class. They can add 30+ seats in LRs and 40+ seats in 300ER. They can use the extra revenue to reduce fare or use it as further profit. YYZ-Pak costs some $1400. So times that with 30 seats, that's $84,000 extra revenue in a return flight. Either that, or they can reduce the fare by $180 for econ pax, making it $1228. Assuming PIA flies 3 times a week, that's 12 flights a month. 12*84k = 1,008,000. This is enough to pay for many many A320s on monthly lease. All calculations were made assuming planes fly at full capacity and ignoring fuel, crew and other costs.

Example, Saudia operates 200er which is almost as lengthy as PIA one to Islamabad. Saudia uses 200er with 10 abreast while PIA does 9. Even emirates and other airlines use 10 abreast.

PIA can keep its economy plus with 9 abreast to make it more "plus," having width advantage and not just leg room.

I really hope the new 777s, if PIA is going to use them, comes at 10 abreast and are used on YYZ/NY routes.

Yes, plus PIA doesn't have Daily North American flights. If i want to travel on a specific date for business, then my only option is ME3.....because they are doing double/triple daily to many cities in North America. Emirates has 6 flights from Karachi and then 4 towards New York i think. Which means i have a good chance of finding a seat and a good connection. Dubai/Doha aren't bad terminals to have 3-6 hour transit.

So our airports are now feeders for Middle eastern airlines. That's it. Long gone are the days when PIA flew multiple sectors and could fill up seats. Long range wide bodies have made point to point very easy.

don't you mind the stay in UK when going to NY? It's an annoying stop over.

 

[Donatello]

If PIA can get the price they're paid, I really think they should sell it. They really need to make regional and domestic route better. Perhaps they can exchange the 777 slots with their 787/330neo slots.

Cuz really, the 777s will be doing break even or be utilized and leave the old 777 in dust as pia is too broke to fix old aircraft. 2 atr are yet to be repaired.

Reading about Turkish and Eithad, Eithad has 12 options for 300ERs and Turkish has 17 on order. Turkish also has 13 330s on order. Maybe PIA can swap the plane with some extra money being given. 330s will be far more profitable on routes such as Milan, Paris or Rome, which certainly doesn't need a big 777 flying there.

@imiakhtar you once said that PIA doesn't operate 10 abreast in 777s, which is true.

But why is that? I doubt many people are aware that PIA seats are more wide and comfortable (they don't even advertise the measurements!). So why won't they go with 10 abreast for at least economy class. They can add 30+ seats in LRs and 40+ seats in 300ER. They can use the extra revenue to reduce fare or use it as further profit. YYZ-Pak costs some $1400. So times that with 30 seats, that's $84,000 extra revenue in a return flight. Either that, or they can reduce the fare by $180 for econ pax, making it $1228. Assuming PIA flies 3 times a week, that's 12 flights a month. 12*84k = 1,008,000. This is enough to pay for many many A320s on monthly lease. All calculations were made assuming planes fly at full capacity and ignoring fuel, crew and other costs.

Example, Saudia operates 200er which is almost as lengthy as PIA one to Islamabad. Saudia uses 200er with 10 abreast while PIA does 9. Even emirates and other airlines use 10 abreast.

PIA can keep its economy plus with 9 abreast to make it more "plus," having width advantage and not just leg room.

I really hope the new 777s, if PIA is going to use them, comes at 10 abreast and are used on YYZ/NY routes.


don't you mind the stay in UK when going to NY? It's an annoying stop over.

PIA won't be able to even fill A330/787.....plus the 777s are really depreciated, the money you will earn by selling them will be far far less than the needed amount to purchase A330/787. In its current state, PIA SHOULD NOT get new jets worth 200 million dollars or more. Apparently, that was the concept with 777, and look how unprofitable they have been.

Maybe PIA can go for A330NEO......but again, they would be good only for domestic and middle east routes. European traffic is all but gone.

And i have never flown PIA to New York, just to Europe. I always prefer ME3 for North America.

 

[WishLivePak]

PIA won't be able to even fill A330/787.....plus the 777s are really depreciated, the money you will earn by selling them will be far far less than the needed amount to purchase A330/787. In its current state, PIA SHOULD NOT get new jets worth 200 million dollars or more. Apparently, that was the concept with 777, and look how unprofitable they have been.

Maybe PIA can go for A330NEO......but again, they would be good only for domestic and middle east routes. European traffic is all but gone.

And i have never flown PIA to New York, just to Europe. I always prefer ME3 for North America.

Actually European traffic can be back.

For example, if London to Pakistan flight takes some 8 hours, why would people do a stop over in Dubai or somewhere (making flight some 14 hours), often taking several hours. They can simply take a ride from UK using red eye flight and arrive in morning in Pakistan. All PIA needs to do is offer equal service.

Also airlines are constantly placing orders on new jets. If PIA can sell the slots to someone else or even give for free, that could work out. They could also sell it to someone who is in dire need of aircraft.

I just have bad feeling that the new airplanes may be used for scrap (as previously done) or that they will leave old planes catching dust for they will not have enough money to repair and focus on using new planes.

Also A330 or 787 carries smaller load than a 777-300ER. Right now 200er and 300er i believe always fly to Paris Milan etc. PIA has no other airplane (apart from a310) to fly these routes. So 787/330 is perfect plane for these routes.

 

[Donatello]

Actually European traffic can be back.

For example, if London to Pakistan flight takes some 8 hours, why would people do a stop over in Dubai or somewhere (making flight some 14 hours), often taking several hours. They can simply take a ride from UK using red eye flight and arrive in morning in Pakistan. All PIA needs to do is offer equal service.

Also airlines are constantly placing orders on new jets. If PIA can sell the slots to someone else or even give for free, that could work out. They could also sell it to someone who is in dire need of aircraft.

I just have bad feeling that the new airplanes may be used for scrap (as previously done) or that they will leave old planes catching dust for they will not have enough money to repair and focus on using new planes.

Also A330 or 787 carries smaller load than a 777-300ER. Right now 200er and 300er i believe always fly to Paris Milan etc. PIA has no other airplane (apart from a310) to fly these routes. So 787/330 is perfect plane for these routes.

PIA first needs to dump the excess baggage i.e it's employees. Then it needs to post profits for at least 2-3 years. Only then shall they get anything new. This is Pakistan taxpayers money. Do you have any idea how many schools or hospitals one can build in the cost of 1 777/A330?

And no, European traffic will never be back unless PIA offers daily services, which it can't.

Like i explained earlier, what if i need to travel on a date and time that PIA is not flying? I have the option for ME3 from Karachi, so i would take that.

My dad travels about 50,000-80,000 miles in a calender year............most of his travel is on a whim. And there are so many other people........they travel business or first class......first class which PIA doesn't even have.

And airlines mint money by selling J and F seats, not Y.

In PIA you'll see pilot's family travelling in Business class.....because they couldn't sell those seats....so they were empty.

 

[WishLivePak]

PIA first needs to dump the excess baggage i.e it's employees. Then it needs to post profits for at least 2-3 years. Only then shall they get anything new. This is Pakistan taxpayers money. Do you have any idea how many schools or hospitals one can build in the cost of 1 777/A330?

And no, European traffic will never be back unless PIA offers daily services, which it can't.

Like i explained earlier, what if i need to travel on a date and time that PIA is not flying? I have the option for ME3 from Karachi, so i would take that.

My dad travels about 50,000-80,000 miles in a calender year............most of his travel is on a whim. And there are so many other people........they travel business or first class......first class which PIA doesn't even have.

And airlines mint money by selling J and F seats, not Y.

In PIA you'll see pilot's family travelling in Business class.....because they couldn't sell those seats....so they were empty.

What you're saying is a seperate topic. But nonetheless, PIA has high fuel costs and labor costs is not as high.

PIA can get more 330s vs 777. For example, just throwing numbers, instead of 5 777-300er, they could've received 8 a330s. This means they can definately do daily service to london for example. Now i must add that people who take PIA from london to pakistan will have specifics, that is, london direct to karachi, not to karachi and then quetta. In this case, there is a stop over. ME3 offers better stop overs.

Also people like you, they like business class offerings in middle east. A typical economy pax wouldn't like to waste 6 hours in transit and rather be in Pakistan in morning.

 

[Donatello]

What you're saying is a seperate topic. But nonetheless, PIA has high fuel costs and labor costs is not as high.

PIA can get more 330s vs 777. For example, just throwing numbers, instead of 5 777-300er, they could've received 8 a330s. This means they can definately do daily service to london for example. Now i must add that people who take PIA from london to pakistan will have specifics, that is, london direct to karachi, not to karachi and then quetta. In this case, there is a stop over. ME3 offers better stop overs.

Also people like you, they like business class offerings in middle east. A typical economy pax wouldn't like to waste 6 hours in transit and rather be in Pakistan in morning.

Boss, long haul and medium haul jets are good when you can fill them up. PIA has trouble filling the European routes. That's all i am saying. If PIA offered me service and punctuality like ME3, i would love to travel direct from Karachi, but the truth is, they don't and they can't.

You know what they say, what is the fastest way to turn a billionaire into a millionaire? Ask them to start an airline.

Airlines are cut throat business......PIA has no chance against ME3. Even the behemoths like Lufthansa and Air France are struggling and that is why they are calling on their governments to restrict the slots and destinations for ME3 in Europe. Emirates only does 4 German cities, and they have already cut into Lufthansa's passenger revenue.

PIA made the wrong decision to purchase 777 since they ply only 2 routes to North America. Would've been better to purchase some A340s for that and the rest A330s, and that is where i agree with you. Now buying more 777s, is utterly stupid. Where are you going to fly them? Karachi-Islamabad sector? You're better offer expanding your regional fleet with 737s or A320s......they can cover most of South Asia and Middle East. Plus there is great demand for traffic from smaller cities like Rahim Yar Khan, Bahawalpur, Sukkur....so ATRs are good on that route. During the summers, PIA can do triple or quadruple daily to Skardu.......they'll be minting money on that route. If Karachi-Islamabad demands more planes, just put more A320s there....at least you have the flexibility to fly them elsewhere......with one 777 or like before, 747, you are just restricting yourself.