Perpetually abroad, Modi loses sight of the grassroots mauled by demonetization

[kadamba-warrior]

My friend, you have hit upon the nerve of the issue. Very well articulated, I must say. I have an issue with all bad ideas, be they religious or otherwise. It's not that I disagree with your prognosis that the "believer" is as much a danger to me or my principles as anyone else. But I don't see as to how that can be resolved by setting up a conflict. I would rather look at a long-term picture, and bide my time to ensure that things do not become violent immediately.

I find it hard to take you seriously when you equate cow vigilantes and other generally accepted bad practices with the stuff that passes for a normal daily life of a 'believing' state. If you think cow vigilantes are bad, take a look at wherever in the world, they have a 'say'. They make cow vigilantes look like circus clowns.

For every Hindu that prays to million G*ds, there is a 'believer' who proclaims that his G*d is the only G*d and nobody else. That's an immediate invitation for violence and bigotry.

In the long term, abandoning bad ideas is the only solution. How that is to happen can be discussed, but I am afraid an alternative involving retention of bad ideas will make conflict inevitable. I agree that as of now, the scenario that I present seems far-fetched.

Your idea is REALLY far-fetched. And if the religious zealots (and I am counting all religions) were so open for debates and settling differences, there wouldn't be so much bloodletting in the world and generally throughout history. Nothing short of repeated, periodic Renaissances could make it better, and even that may not be enough.

I am all for abandoning bad ideas and generally rid the society of a rather unnecessary concept of religion, but then I believe that the worst of religious bigots find refuge in areas which are open, secular & progressive to begin with. Kerala & WB come to mind. A secular den is a religious zealot's paradise.

And yet, look around you. What is it all building up to? All the ingredients of civil war are being assembled. Study the history of Lebanon. We cannot let that be repeated here.

I do hope you realize that the "fight" you are referring to is civil war. I would rather not have such a fight. The only way to achieve that would be if we fight for our right to question and reject bad ideas on both sides - especially the ones that insist that religious differences "must" be resolved.

Honestly speaking, it is not even up to you and me. The only way they will stop is if you and me start to 'believe'. Even that wouldn't be enough since that would only be the start of sectarian hatred like what is seen in ME right now.

And when we do lose, make no mistake - it will not just be some temples and idols that will be on the line. Everything that you call Indian that will be lost. And wiped clean.

I would rather take a chance, stick with my own and seek comfort in numbers and delay the inevitable for as long as possible - because they do not distinguish between a secular, an atheist or a non-believer.

 

[Jacob Martin]

I find it hard to take you seriously when you equate cow vigilantes and other generally accepted bad practices with the stuff that passes for a normal daily life of a 'believing' state. If you think cow vigilantes are bad, take a look at wherever in the world, they have a 'say'. They make cow vigilantes look like circus clowns.

For every Hindu that prays to million G*ds, there is a 'believer' who proclaims that his G*d is the only G*d and nobody else. That's an immediate invitation for violence and bigotry.



Your idea is REALLY far-fetched. And if the religious zealots (and I am counting all religions) were so open for debates and settling differences, there wouldn't be so much bloodletting in the world and generally throughout history. Nothing short of repeated, periodic Renaissances could make it better, and even that may not be enough.

I am all for abandoning bad ideas and generally rid the society of a rather unnecessary concept of religion, but then I believe that the worst of religious bigots find refuge in areas which are open, secular & progressive to begin with. Kerala & WB come to mind. A secular den is a religious zealot's paradise.



Honestly speaking, it is not even up to you and me. The only way they will stop is if you and me start to 'believe'. Even that wouldn't be enough since that would only be the start of sectarian hatred like what is seen in ME right now.

And when we do lose, make no mistake - it will not just be some temples and idols that will be on the line. Everything that you call Indian that will be lost. And wiped clean.

I would rather take a chance, stick with my own and seek comfort in numbers and delay the inevitable for as long as possible - because they do not distinguish between a secular, an atheist or a non-believer.

I think "if we can't fight them, join them" is not the best way to go about it. I just wish for parsing it three-ways - cow people, believers and secularists. And my wish to distinguish one from the other has nothing to do with wanting adversarial relations.

It is really revealing that advocates of identity-based conflict look at those who wish to avoid it as if that is a gullible view. Let me tell you what is gullible. It is gullible to thing that a conflict of such magnitude will escape you personally. Because you assume that it would be 80-20 or 70-30, which is bad enough. I have news for you. The cow people are not exactly rock-stars with various different identities in the country either. Which is where this delusion comes into its own. Winning elections with a 40% vote share is not the same as having the wherewithal to settle disputes unilaterally in ones favour. Hopefully a couple of election defeats will knock that sense into people.

As for the threat posed by cow people; the only reason it seems lesser is because they focus on lame issues. When they put their minds to slaughter, they are not too bad at it either. So it will be a close call between them and the believers, and I wish to avoid it if possible. And oh, they murder rationalists as well. Kalburgi, Pandsare and Dhabholkar would testify to that, if they were alive. I do not want to join the list, which is why if pushed, my idea of "if you can't fight them, join them", if it does come to that, will be different than yours.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

I think "if we can't fight them, join them" is not the best way to go about it. I just wish for parsing it three-ways - cow people, believers and secularists. And my wish to distinguish one from the other has nothing to do with wanting adversarial relations.

It is really revealing that advocates of identity-based conflict look at those who wish to avoid it as if that is a gullible view. Let me tell you what is gullible. It is gullible to thing that a conflict of such magnitude will escape you personally. Because you assume that it would be 80-20 or 70-30, which is bad enough. I have news for you. The cow people are not exactly rock-stars with various different identities in the country either. Which is where this delusion comes into its own. Winning elections with a 40% vote share is not the same as having the wherewithal to settle disputes unilaterally in ones favour. Hopefully a couple of election defeats will knock that sense into people.

As for the threat posed by cow people; the only reason it seems lesser is because they focus on lame issues. When they put their minds to slaughter, they are not too bad at it either. So it will be a close call between them and the believers, and I wish to avoid it if possible. And oh, they murder rationalists as well. Kalburgi, Pandsare and Dhabholkar would testify to that, if they were alive. I do not want to join the list, which is why if pushed, my idea of "if you can't fight them, join them", if it does come to that, will be different than yours.

Like I said, I can't take anybody seriously when they declare saffron t*rror is as bad as ****** ******. Mind you, I do not even defend what these bunch of goons do in the name of protecting cows. We could do well without them and I wish the LEA's do what these clowns claim to do. But there is a reason why nobody goes in a crowded place and does stuff that some do while pronouncing Ram is Great or Shiva is better or Ganesha is even nicer.

And believe me, I harbor no delusions about how bad things could get if it actually came to that. I would rather it doesn't get that bad. But I don't feel that optimistic.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Bibo]

civil war is one manifestation. slaughter is another one. cultural repression is another way.
FYI I am not advocating any of the above.

LOL..... is this COMEDY CENTRAL ?

The most important and relevant manifestation of "fight" is ELECTIONS

I am not endorsing anything. If some farmers survive without MSP the question is what about all the farmers.
Being a farmer is like a businessman. It is not for everyone

Are you seriously comparing a Farmer to a businessman ?

If every businessman in the world dies tomorrow, the world will do just fine.

If every farmer disappears tomorrow, you will starve to death.

The three meals you eat everyday is the blood and sweat of that farmer from whom you have stolen that food for a pittance.

If the farmer was to be paid the actual worth of his labor, that food on the table will be UNaffordable to you.

I think "if we can't fight them, join them" is not the best way to go about it. I just wish for parsing it three-ways - cow people, believers and secularists. And my wish to distinguish one from the other has nothing to do with wanting adversarial relations.

It is really revealing that advocates of identity-based conflict look at those who wish to avoid it as if that is a gullible view. Let me tell you what is gullible. It is gullible to thing that a conflict of such magnitude will escape you personally. Because you assume that it would be 80-20 or 70-30, which is bad enough. I have news for you. The cow people are not exactly rock-stars with various different identities in the country either. Which is where this delusion comes into its own. Winning elections with a 40% vote share is not the same as having the wherewithal to settle disputes unilaterally in ones favour. Hopefully a couple of election defeats will knock that sense into people.

As for the threat posed by cow people; the only reason it seems lesser is because they focus on lame issues. When they put their minds to slaughter, they are not too bad at it either. So it will be a close call between them and the believers, and I wish to avoid it if possible. And oh, they murder rationalists as well. Kalburgi, Pandsare and Dhabholkar would testify to that, if they were alive. I do not want to join the list, which is why if pushed, my idea of "if you can't fight them, join them", if it does come to that, will be different than yours.

There will be No "conflict" as long as people believe in the Constitution

Which means when the popularly elected govt. passes a bill for COW PROTECTION, you suck it up and get on with your life (minus the beef).

If that means Hindus have consolidated and voted for Hindutva, it means healthy democracy.

You don't like it ? Tough luck. But no one else is loosing any sleep over it.

Rest of India does not want to join the list of NAMELESS victims of Islamic Terrorism either.

Rest of India does not want to be blackmailed by the christian church either , for education or for nuclear power.

LOL at your hyperbole.

.......... btw don't forget to vote the next time to "avoid a civil war"

Like I said, I can't take anybody seriously when they declare saffron t*rror is as bad as ****** ******. Mind you, I do not even defend what these bunch of goons do in the name of protecting cows. We could do well without them and I wish the LEA's do what these clowns claim to do. But there is a reason why nobody goes in a crowded place and does stuff that some do while pronouncing Ram is Great or Shiva is better or Ganesha is even nicer.

And believe me, I harbor no delusions about how bad things could get if it actually came to that. I would rather it doesn't get that bad. But I don't feel that optimistic.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

So you think Hindus are going to go to crowded places and blow themselves up claiming Shiva is better ?

Is that what history teaches you ?

Is that why you don't feel optimistic ?

 

[punit]

My friend, you have hit upon the nerve of the issue. Very well articulated, I must say. I have an issue with all bad ideas, be they religious or otherwise. It's not that I disagree with your prognosis that the "believer" is as much a danger to me or my principles as anyone else. But I don't see as to how that can be resolved by setting up a conflict. I would rather look at a long-term picture, and bide my time to ensure that things do not become violent immediately.

In the long term, abandoning bad ideas is the only solution. How that is to happen can be discussed, but I am afraid an alternative involving retention of bad ideas will make conflict inevitable. I agree that as of now, the scenario that I present seems far-fetched. And yet, look around you. What is it all building up to? All the ingredients of civil war are being assembled. Study the history of Lebanon. We cannot let that be repeated here.



I do hope you realize that the "fight" you are referring to is civil war. I would rather not have such a fight. The only way to achieve that would be if we fight for our right to question and reject bad ideas on both sides - especially the ones that insist that religious differences "must" be resolved.

voter is fool .. only the smart *** commies who managed votes in single digits are the intelligent. keep ranting.

Aha! Another end-justifies-means munchkin has arrived. So your favourite party is allowed to wreck the economy, polarize the public and do any nonsense it pleases, as long as it wins elections, right? After all, isn't that the sole motive for our existence?

Your snide remarks leave me no option but to IGNORE you.

 

[wiseone2]

LOL..... is this COMEDY CENTRAL ?

The most important and relevant manifestation of "fight" is ELECTIONS





Are you seriously comparing a Farmer to a businessman ?

If every businessman in the world dies tomorrow, the world will do just fine.

If every farmer disappears tomorrow, you will starve to death.

The three meals you eat everyday is the blood and sweat of that farmer from whom you have stolen that food for a pittance.

If the farmer was to be paid the actual worth of his labor, that food on the table will be UNaffordable to you.



There will be No "conflict" as long as people believe in the Constitution

Which means when the popularly elected govt. passes a bill for COW PROTECTION, you suck it up and get on with your life (minus the beef).

If that means Hindus have consolidated and voted for Hindutva, it means healthy democracy.

You don't like it ? Tough luck. But no one else is loosing any sleep over it.

Rest of India does not want to join the list of NAMELESS victims of Islamic Terrorism either.

Rest of India does not want to be blackmailed by the christian church either , for education or for nuclear power.

LOL at your hyperbole.

.......... btw don't forget to vote the next time to "avoid a civil war"



So you think Hindus are going to go to crowded places and blow themselves up claiming Shiva is better ?

Is that what history teaches you ?

Is that why you don't feel optimistic ?

I forgot elections is a basic way of resolving group differences

Farming is a business. People are not farming because non-farmers need to be feed. People are farming because it is a livelihood for them. How does one become a farmer ? It is likely because they inherited land from their ancestors. That does not make everyone a good farmer. At the end of the day every farmer has income and expenses. If the income does not exceed expenses they will quit farming.

If all the businesses perish you will be living in 7th century

 

[Bibo]

I forgot elections is a basic way of resolving group differences

Farming is a business. People are not farming because non-farmers need to be feed. People are farming because it is a livelihood for them. How does one become a farmer ? It is likely because they inherited land from their ancestors. That does not make everyone a good farmer. At the end of the day every farmer has income and expenses. If the income does not exceed expenses they will quit farming.

If all the businesses perish you will be living in 7th century

But .... but .... but the child of Maculley is discussing "civil war"

Spare me the kinder grade economics of farming.

If the income exceeded the expense of farming there never would be Farm loans or Farmer suicide

Do you know what is the percentage of irrigation facility in our national farm sector ? Now compare that to the total roads and railways built.

now compare that to the total percentage of farmers in India.

 

[wiseone2]

But .... but .... but the child of Maculley is discussing "civil war"

Spare me the kinder grade economics of farming.

If the income exceeded the expense of farming there never would be Farm loans or Farmer suicide

Do you know what is the percentage of irrigation facility in our national farm sector ? Now compare that to the total roads and railways built.

now compare that to the total percentage of farmers in India.

I have been in a village. My grandparents were farmers. Farming is utterly inefficient in all aspects - water, energy, labor and storage. Things have improved on a modest basis.

Irrigation is useless when there is no water to spare

 

[Bibo]

I have been in a village. My grandparents were farmers. Farming is utterly inefficient in all aspects - water, energy, labor and storage. Things have improved on a modest basis.

Irrigation is useless when there is no water to spare

Irrigation is all about creating check dams and replenishing ground water. It's about creating a water hole for the eco system to flourish and for plants and trees to grow.

Farming is NECESSARY. Its more important than crude oil. Its efficiency is secondary. Its not profitable because we exploit the farmers by denying them a fair price for their produce.

Every other nations offers subsidies to their farmers to make their produce cheap, we OTOH allow for import at the cost of Indian farmers.

Funny how we do not allow FDI in Retail, but have no qualms about importing cheap food so that we can eat cheap food while our farmer goes hungry.

 

[baajey]

Yes, mindless leftist propaganda. For pointing out -

1) demonetization was a disaster that wiped out sections if the agricultural community by disrupting sale of kharif crop

2) none of the purported benefits of demonetization have accrued so far as claimed. They have not even released the final tally of how much money was deposited in the banks

3) Make in India, Digital India, Skill India, Smart City India, Swachch Bharat India, and all these Jumlas have fetched nothing so far and are total failures

4) FDI numbers are dodgy as institutional investment in equity and unrealized pledges are lumped together with non-existent Greenfield projects

5) GDP numbers are dodgy, and even the RBI is steadily losing credibility

6) whatever growth has taken place is jobless in nature, in fact employment growth is lower than under previous government

7) as for the socio-political climate...well I will not even go into that

@baajey @The_Showstopper @takeiteasy

Let us spread more mindless propaganda to sully our lovely ruling party!!!

whatever our "dear leader" does, it will be for the benefit of our country.
any contrary views will be dealth with sedition laws, ink facing, slurs or the very elusive one way ticket to pakistan.
times are changing. colleagues in my office, who worshipped our "dear leader" and even believed his "feacal matter" is worth more than gold are realising where we are headed.

 

[wiseone2]

Irrigation is all about creating check dams and replenishing ground water. It's about creating a water hole for the eco system to flourish and for plants and trees to grow.

Farming is NECESSARY. Its more important than crude oil. Its efficiency is secondary. Its not profitable because we exploit the farmers by denying them a fair price for their produce.

Every other nations offers subsidies to their farmers to make their produce cheap, we OTOH allow for import at the cost of Indian farmers.

Funny how we do not allow FDI in Retail, but have no qualms about importing cheap food so that we can eat cheap food while our farmer goes hungry.

Irrigation will not replenish ground water. Water management does.

Farming is necessary. We have to get a lot smarter about how we do it. The current policies of price supports, subsidies etc. is not sustainable at the fiscal and environmental level

You have price controls because a lot of poor people cannot afford food at the current prices. That includes folks who are farming

 

[baajey]

LOL...such facepalm these "articles".

Lets take on just one of their claims with facts:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ng-up-26-2-till-date/articleshow/59181210.cms

Didn't tax base also increase by like 9 million people?:

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/WR...tisation-effect-91-million-new-taxpayers.html

As for swarajya magazine, it leans pro-modi (as a platform)....does not mean all its articles are quality and neither are all their authors pro-modi or even neutral. Similar to how there is a sizeable amount of Trump hate on Fox news.

Let's have a look at this particular author's record:

https://swarajyamag.com/author/17505/r-jagannathan

Yes clearly a staunch Modi supporter that has suddenly shifted right? I am not even going to bother with the OP article and author.

All I will say is it's seriously laughable that people are already "tallying" up pros and cons (from their skewed analysis) when the real pros are much more long term than the cons. Basically they have realised this is the window to try make the most anti-modi anti-BJP hay....because hey what else can one do after what happened in UP.....which was supposed to be the massive defeat for BJP and Modi on the topic of demonetisation.

@The_Showstopper
@takeiteasy
this guy has a point. Not all Modi's policies are absolute failures. they may have failed in their primary objectives, but they certainly had brought forward some good things too.
@Nilgiri Anna, process of hay making is quite old. it was done by the opposition in the country since its birth. who do you think made the most hay till date ?

 

[Bibo]

whatever our "dear leader" does, it will be for the benefit of our country.
any contrary views will be dealth with sedition laws, ink facing, slurs or the very elusive one way ticket to pakistan.
times are changing. colleagues in my office, who worshipped our "dear leader" and even believed his "feacal matter" is worth more than gold are realising where we are headed.

Irrigation will not replenish ground water. Water management does.

Farming is necessary. We have to get a lot smarter about how we do it. The current policies of price supports, subsidies etc. is not sustainable at the fiscal and environmental level

You have price controls because a lot of poor people cannot afford food at the current prices. That includes folks who are farming

Irrigation management IS water management.

If you want get "smarter" about farming, Make Farming PROFITABLE like IT.

Suddenly you will find all the IITiansn and IIM' grads rushing into Farming.

Be careful what you wish for.

Suddenly you will find that the farmer is rich while you are not.

Governments in India routinely impose price controls to keep food prices artificially low. They do so to gain favor with their more politically powerful urban residents. The irony of this situation is that by artificially depressing the price of food, government reduce incentives for farmers to produce and reduce the availability of food from indigenous sources.

 

[baajey]

What is your definition of the word secular? Why do you believe BJP is not secular?

We live in funny times where the party which wants Uniform Civil Code (same laws for everyone , irrespective of religion) is called as communal and those who oppose UCC are seculars.

The definition of secularism is that govt will not interfere with anyone on basis of religion. Having different laws as per different religions is diametrically opposite of secularism.

I want you to give me a clear cut answer and explanation. How is UCC NOT secular? If UCC is communal then are Europe and US - which have UCC communal too?

The problem is that the so called thekedars of secularim have twisted the meaning of the word to suit their own agenda and vote banks. Maybe this is why we call them "sickular"

If you belieeve that BJP is not secular for XYZ reason and congress and others are not secular for opposing UCC or pandering to the mullah brigade in Shah Bano case even after the Supreme Court verdict then my contention is that NONE of the parties in India follow secularism so no one has the right to act holier than thou and call BJP as communal

first of all, the term "sickular" was founded by our dear bothers n sisters who see the world in orange (quite healthy for the body and equally poisonous for the mind).
BJP will not and cannot be secular (not sickular) till its under the babaji called RSS. the day BJP gets out of the latter's shadow and gets its own face, we shall judge then how much secular BJP will be. till then, BJP will be a hindu nationalist party, no more no less. but its not necessary that everything that they do will be against secularism, like , implementing a railway project.
regarding UCC, who told you that anybody secular will oppose the same. heck anybody remotely secular will fight tooth n nail for it. so no, europe and america are essentially in secular hands.
rest i agree.

 

[footmarks]

Irrigation management IS water management.

If you want get "smarter" about farming, Make Farming PROFITABLE like IT.

Suddenly you will find all the IITiansn and IIM' grads rushing into Farming.

Be careful what you wish for.

Suddenly you will find that the farmer is rich while you are not.

Governments in India routinely impose price controls to keep food prices artificially low. They do so to gain favor with their more politically powerful urban residents. The irony of this situation is that by artificially depressing the price of food, government reduce incentives for farmers to produce and reduce the availability of food from indigenous sources.

Govt controls (or rather tries to control) retail price of food, and subsidizes the cost of production for farmers too. A noble cause I should say. Problem lies in between. Farmers sell their produce at dirt cheap prices to traders, aggregators and middlemen, who earn exorbitant profits by jacking the retail price through hoarding, monopolizing and creating artificial shortages/supply constraints.

Farming as such is the most profitable business (and tax free too), provided you have economies of scale to play with. I have personally met farmers who run big farms and earn crores of tax free income every year.