Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag

[Jlaw]

I am waiting to know which plane turns out to the World's best plane now

On a serious note, @PARIKRAMA thanks for tagging me here. This really will be huge for India, no doubt about that. This is one of those countless indications of the geopolitical alliances shifting that i also have been talking about recently. The initial remark is not out of some hatred, it is just a reflection of how we people have the tendency of blowing things out of proportion. Trust me, you will also see that happening.

if true, another step closer for U.S. soldiers to establish a base in India. What is India going to do with all these Russian military equipment when India side with U.S. and abandon its trustworthy supplier Russia?
Not surprised as Mohan Singh betrayed Brits before and fought on Japanese side

In bold, but not the U.S for sure. Why would the U.S gives away cutting edge tech to India if India does not do what the U.S expects her to do? Behind closed doors India must have provided some sort of deep commitment to the U.S; otherwise, India gains everything by receiving technologies that the U.S spent years to develop. On the other hand, the U.S gains nothing from helping India with her military industrial base. India needs the U.S more than the U.S needs India, my friend.

U.S. get military bases in India

 

[randomradio]

In bold, but not the U.S for sure. Why would the U.S gives away cutting edge tech to India if India does not do what the U.S expects her to do? Behind closed doors India must have provided some sort of deep commitment to the U.S; otherwise, India gains everything by receiving technologies that the U.S spent years to develop. On the other hand, the U.S gains nothing from helping India with her military industrial base.

India has not provided any sort of commitment. The US wants to make India as strong as possible because they need a country that can contain China. In the future, China won't be a peer-competitor with the US, China will be far too strong. Both China and India will have economies 2-3 times the size of the US within the next 3 decades. So the US gains a lot simply by helping India, without expecting anything back in return. The only direct benefit is big deals for US companies.

India needs the U.S more than the U.S needs India, my friend.

I don't know why everybody keeps saying this. India has never needed the US, it never has for the last 50 years. India is merely taking advantage of the current relationship in every way possible.

U.S. get military bases in India

India gets military bases in American territories.

 

[Jlaw]

I



India gets military bases in American territories.

You know that's not how it works with US.

 

[hoangsa74]

India has not provided any sort of commitment. The US wants to make India as strong as possible because they need a country that can contain China. In the future, China won't be a peer-competitor with the US, China will be far too strong. Both China and India will have economies 2-3 times the size of the US within the next 3 decades. So the US gains a lot simply by helping India, without expecting anything back in return. The only direct benefit is big deals for US companies.



I don't know why everybody keeps saying this. India has never needed the US, it never has for the last 50 years. India is merely taking advantage of the current relationship in every way possible.

Yes, the U.S needs a strong India to counter China. Let's be precise in what the U.S wants a "strong" India to do. The U.S want India to confront China militarily if called upon; no what if b.s about it. I used to think there was 0% chance of Indian Navy in the SCS, now I believe there is a 50% chance of Indian Navy and its carrier patrolling the SCS.

No, the U.S will lose a lot by helping India and not expecting anything in return from India. In geopolitics, nobody is stupid to give somebody something (especially technologies that deal with national security) while not receiving anything back. Think about it, the U.S is helping India to get strong, how does India help the U.S in return? Just by being "strong" and do nothing? The U.S is giving away technologies that will potentially harm the U.S in the future by nurturing Indian MIC that will one day come back and compete against the U.S. A few chump change from the current deals will not offset the huge loss to the future of U.S arms export in a sense that India will not buy or buy less from the U.S in addition to competing against U.S's arms export market. The U.S only licensed 3 countries to produce the F-16 and those 3 all have serious commitment to the U.S's cause. India on the other hand can even potentially get help from the U.S to get pass the jet engine hurdle and the only country in the world to receive this special privilege. What makes you think India is so special and above and beyond the rest that she does not need to return any favor to the U.S??? Do you believe the U.S is some stupid country?

It's true that India never needed the U.S. Even cavemen do not need the U.S for their survival. However, receiving technological help from the U.S is the decisive factor that will propel your country from a hopeless agrarian society into an economic industrial powerhouse. Both South Korea and China at one time were hopelessly backward with little to no industry. But due to the massive technological transfer from the U.S during and after the Cold War they are now major industrial power. Those two countries are able to produce and export to the world pretty much every product except Boeing commercial jet. I have been to China and I can tell you that China is at least one light year ahead of India in term of development and I can tell you that if India does not have a serious commitment with the U.S either openly or discreetly, India won't receive the kind of tech transfer the U.S companies gave to China to propel India anywhere near the current development level of China.

 

[randomradio]

You know that's not how it works with US.

That's exactly how it is going to work. IN gets access to Guam, Pearl Harbour and all other US military installations around the world.

Yes, the U.S needs a strong India to counter China. Let's be precise in what the U.S wants a "strong" India to do. The U.S want India to confront China militarily if called upon; no what if b.s about it. I used to think there was 0% chance of Indian Navy in the SCS, now I believe there is a 50% chance of Indian Navy and its carrier patrolling the SCS.

India has been patrolling the SCS for years now. And India has rejected joint patrolling with the US.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/setting-the-record-straight-on-us-india-south-china-sea-patrols/

When it comes to the SCS, we have exclusive berthing rights with Vietnam. So we have access to the SCS from ASEAN countries, we don't need the US for that.
http://www.vifindia.org/print/1793

the Indian Navy has also gained permanent berthing rights at Vietnam’s Na Thrang port

And no, the US is not expecting India to come to American aid during wartime, they desire it, but our cooperation is without that expectation. If the US goes to war with China, India is under no obligation to work with the US. We are not an alliance.

No, the U.S will lose a lot by helping India and not expecting anything in return from India. In geopolitics, nobody is stupid to give somebody something (especially technologies that deal with national security) while not receiving anything back. Think about it, the U.S is helping India to get strong, how does India help the U.S in return? Just by being "strong" and do nothing? The U.S is giving away technologies that will potentially harm the U.S in the future by nurturing Indian MIC that will one day come back and compete against the U.S. A few chump change from the current deals will not offset the huge loss to the future of U.S arms export in a sense that India will not buy or buy less from the U.S in addition to competing against U.S's arms export market. The U.S only licensed 3 countries to produce the F-16 and those 3 all have serious commitment to the U.S's cause. India on the other hand can even potentially get help from the U.S to get pass the jet engine hurdle and the only country in the world to receive this special privilege. What makes you think India is so special and above and beyond the rest that she does not need to return any favor to the U.S??? Do you believe the U.S is some stupid country?

It's true that India never needed the U.S. Even cavemen do not need the U.S for their survival. However, receiving technological help from the U.S is the decisive factor that will propel your country from a hopeless agrarian society into an economic industrial powerhouse. Both South Korea and China at one time were hopelessly backward with little to no industry. But due to the massive technological transfer from the U.S during and after the Cold War they are now major industrial power. Those two countries are able to produce and export to the world pretty much every product except Boeing commercial jet. I have been to China and I can tell you that China is at least one light year ahead of India in term of development and I can tell you that if India does not have a serious commitment with the U.S either openly or discreetly, India won't receive the kind of tech transfer the U.S companies gave to China to propel India anywhere near the current development level of China.

You are confusing economic cooperation with military cooperation. Both are entirely different. Private American companies have been investing in India even when India was under nuclear sanctions. Most countries are ahead in the development curve compared to India, we all know that.

But the US is providing assistance to India because they know that all the other three countries that you mentioned are completely useless when it comes to countering China regardless of how committed they are.

The US is not expecting anything in return. All they want is an India that can counter China economically and militarily. The US officials themselves have said that regardless of whether India cooperates with the US or not, they will help India become an Asia-Pacific power.

The Americans have been trying to rebrand India as a Pacific power.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/indi...terrorists-sanctuaries-democrats-2868968.html

India is signing exclusive agreements with the US for tech transfer. For example, we don't have a LSA agreement with them, our agreement is called LEMOA. It has India-specific clauses. It's the same for CISMOA, all US allies have this agreement signed with the US, but our agreement is called COMCASA, with India-specific clauses.

https://defence.pk/threads/india-and-us-face-tough-negotiations-on-cismoa-now-called-comcasa.447855/

A senior Pentagon official who participated in CISMOA negotiations with India confessed: “When we sat down with the MoD in Delhi and the CISMOA experts explained the draft, even we were taken aback by the intrusiveness. We looked at each other and rolled our eyes [indicating], ‘this is not going to happen’.”

And the US is trying to get India into the MTCR, NSG etc also. Basically, the US is doing everything in their power to make India as strong as possible.

There is not a single country in the world today that can match the PLA man to man except for India. There is not a single army in the world today that can stand up to the PLA except India. The US recognizes that.

 

[R!CK]

That's exactly how it is going to work. IN gets access to Guam, Pearl Harbour and all other US military installations around the world.



India has been patrolling the SCS for years now. And India has rejected joint patrolling with the US.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/setting-the-record-straight-on-us-india-south-china-sea-patrols/

When it comes to the SCS, we have exclusive berthing rights with Vietnam. So we have access to the SCS from ASEAN countries, we don't need the US for that.
http://www.vifindia.org/print/1793


And no, the US is not expecting India to come to American aid during wartime, they desire it, but our cooperation is without that expectation. If the US goes to war with China, India is under no obligation to work with the US. We are not an alliance.



You are confusing economic cooperation with military cooperation. Both are entirely different. Private American companies have been investing in India even when India was under nuclear sanctions. Most countries are ahead in the development curve compared to India, we all know that.

But the US is providing assistance to India because they know that all the other three countries that you mentioned are completely useless when it comes to countering China regardless of how committed they are.

The US is not expecting anything in return. All they want is an India that can counter China economically and militarily. The US officials themselves have said that regardless of whether India cooperates with the US or not, they will help India become an Asia-Pacific power.

The Americans have been trying to rebrand India as a Pacific power.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/indi...terrorists-sanctuaries-democrats-2868968.html

India is signing exclusive agreements with the US for tech transfer. For example, we don't have a LSA agreement with them, our agreement is called LEMOA. It has India-specific clauses. It's the same for CISMOA, all US allies have this agreement signed with the US, but our agreement is called COMCASA, with India-specific clauses.

https://defence.pk/threads/india-and-us-face-tough-negotiations-on-cismoa-now-called-comcasa.447855/


And the US is trying to get India into the MTCR, NSG etc also. Basically, the US is doing everything in their power to make India as strong as possible.

There is not a single country in the world today that can match the PLA man to man except for India. There is not a single army in the world today that can stand up to the PLA except India. The US recognizes that.

If you think US makes us strong to do nothing, big mistake. Personally, It shouldn't be a one way thing. We should do things that's logical and beneficial for both countries. The time of India being worried about Chinese concern over co-operation with US is gone. As for Russia, they know how to milk India and they wont let go off us. Not unless they find a bigger buyer than India, which I doubt any other country can fill in. Its all a business. Everyone is in for a gain, not for charity service. What we need to get is an optimum point where both countries gain without much losses.

P.S: Its good to be patriotic, but don't get blind by it. India is not a god's gift for the entire world to embrace upon. We are the very same country which once got sanctioned by the very same people who praise and support us now. Things change over time, for the good or bad. And why do we have to be the only one benefiting all the time? Why cant it be US helping India and India helping US? Why are we scared to admit we will help US in return for whatever help they give? And for everyone talking about the evil eyes of US, I'm surprised to see half of those people living in US instead of their home country for heavens sake. Why live in a country that you consider so evil? lol

Yes, the U.S needs a strong India to counter China. Let's be precise in what the U.S wants a "strong" India to do. The U.S want India to confront China militarily if called upon; no what if b.s about it. I used to think there was 0% chance of Indian Navy in the SCS, now I believe there is a 50% chance of Indian Navy and its carrier patrolling the SCS.

No, the U.S will lose a lot by helping India and not expecting anything in return from India. In geopolitics, nobody is stupid to give somebody something (especially technologies that deal with national security) while not receiving anything back. Think about it, the U.S is helping India to get strong, how does India help the U.S in return? Just by being "strong" and do nothing? The U.S is giving away technologies that will potentially harm the U.S in the future by nurturing Indian MIC that will one day come back and compete against the U.S. A few chump change from the current deals will not offset the huge loss to the future of U.S arms export in a sense that India will not buy or buy less from the U.S in addition to competing against U.S's arms export market. The U.S only licensed 3 countries to produce the F-16 and those 3 all have serious commitment to the U.S's cause. India on the other hand can even potentially get help from the U.S to get pass the jet engine hurdle and the only country in the world to receive this special privilege. What makes you think India is so special and above and beyond the rest that she does not need to return any favor to the U.S??? Do you believe the U.S is some stupid country?

It's true that India never needed the U.S. Even cavemen do not need the U.S for their survival. However, receiving technological help from the U.S is the decisive factor that will propel your country from a hopeless agrarian society into an economic industrial powerhouse. Both South Korea and China at one time were hopelessly backward with little to no industry. But due to the massive technological transfer from the U.S during and after the Cold War they are now major industrial power. Those two countries are able to produce and export to the world pretty much every product except Boeing commercial jet. I have been to China and I can tell you that China is at least one light year ahead of India in term of development and I can tell you that if India does not have a serious commitment with the U.S either openly or discreetly, India won't receive the kind of tech transfer the U.S companies gave to China to propel India anywhere near the current development level of China.

The truth!

Good Day all!

and yes I'm Indian.

 

[randomradio]

If you think US makes us strong to do nothing, big mistake. Personally, It shouldn't be a one way thing. We should do things that's logical and beneficial for both countries. The time of India being worried about Chinese concern over co-operation with US is gone. As for Russia, they know how to milk India and they wont let go off us. Not unless they find a bigger buyer than India, which I doubt any other country can fill in. Its all a business. Everyone is in for a gain, not for charity service. What we need to get is an optimum point where both countries gain without much losses.

P.S: Its good to be patriotic, but don't get blind by it. India is not a god's gift for the entire world to embrace upon. We are the very same country which once got sanctioned by the very same people who praise and support us now. Things change over time, for the good or bad.

The situation's completely different from before. Not like in the 90s or 2000s where both India and China were weak.

The nuclear deal was completely in our favour. The US is trying to push India into the MTCR and NSG also. The USG is pushing corporations to invest more in India and so on. It's all part of the American plan.

So we are not talking about money, we are talking about geopolitics.

Check what she says from 56:22 to 56:48.

That's what the US is looking for. They want a counterweight to China, that's about it. That's their expectation from India. The US doesn't want India to toe their line, they are not expecting it. They are not expecting an alliance, although they want that. They are not looking towards a common anti-China narrative either.

What the US really want is, in case China thinks about going to war against the US and allies, economic or military, they should also consider India in their equation. They want India to be strong enough to be considered in this Chinese equation. That sort of uncertainty plays a crucial role in geopolitics.

Overall, India will continue doing business as usual while also grabbing this new US necessity to make India strong with both hands. It is guaranteed that the US has considered India will also be a future challenger. They are doing whatever they are doing now after having considered all possible scenarios.

This article is for @hoangsa74 also.
https://defence.pk/threads/us-will-...-not-it-chooses-to-operate-with-us-us.438516/

The US is "committed" to help India build its defence capabilities until it can be the "net provider of security" in the Asia-Pacific region, a senior Obama administration official has said.

"There is a recognition that as India grows and develops the capacity to protect its interests, not just in immediate region, but also broadly throughout Asia Pacific particularly in the Indian Ocean region. It is in the US interest to build India that capacity until it can truly be the net provider of security," the official told PTI.

"Whether India decides to operate with us or not, we are committed to help India develop that capacity to protect its own interest and to ensure that the Indian Ocean region is free from the kind of threats to maritime transport, shipping, the way it is being in the South China Sea," he said.

So all that they are doing with India now is in American interests.

And just because the Americans offer something, doesn't mean we have to accept it.

 

[DavidSling]

The sooner India will become U.S ally the better... then we can provide some limited systems to them

 

[randomradio]

The sooner India will become U.S ally the better... then we can provide some limited systems to them

India won't become a US ally. India doesn't have the framework necessary to create alliances. Strategic partnership is the best we can do. We have that with Russia too.

 

[surya kiran]

In bold, but not the U.S for sure. Why would the U.S gives away cutting edge tech to India if India does not do what the U.S expects her to do? Behind closed doors India must have provided some sort of deep commitment to the U.S; otherwise, India gains everything by receiving technologies that the U.S spent years to develop. On the other hand, the U.S gains nothing from helping India with her military industrial base. India needs the U.S more than the U.S needs India, my friend.

The concept of need is relative. Let me give you an example. The relationship we share with the Russians is much deeper than what we will ever share with the Americans. And it is not just in buying military products. A lot of R&D started off with Russian help. They provided us with help even when sanctions were imposed after the nuclear test.

Will we gain if tech is shared with Indian organisations? Of course, we will. Are we game for it? Yes. What does the US want in return? A market to sell its military hardware, ease to do business in the Indian market and a partner who will be part of a NATO like organisation. While the first 2 points are easy and India will agree, we do not see it in our strategic interests to be part of an Asian NATO.

Now you say, US gains nothing from helping India with her MIC. Fine. Nobody is holding a gun to the US head. Do not help. The problem for the Americans, is that if not Americans there are others ready to collaborate with. Its plain and simple business.

I find many Americans over estimating Indian need for American tech, while Indians over playing our strategic presence. Let's be clear. We do not want war with the Chinese. Not because, we are weak. But, it does not make any sense. The Chinese do not want war, because, the opponent can do unacceptable damage. So you have a stand off. The only sticking point is the border issue. If the Indo-Sino border is solved, you will find India moving away from any kind of interference from the SCS.

The sooner India will become U.S ally the better... then we can provide some limited systems to them

Unfortunately, that is never going to happen. Our cutting edge tech is Israeli, French and Russian. But, slowly getting replaced with Indian tech. Think about us like the French+. We have all the attitude of the French with the added one of saying we will not be part of an military alliance like NATO, targeting a specific country. Even if that country is China.

 

[R!CK]

The concept of need is relative. Let me give you an example. The relationship we share with the Russians is much deeper than what we will ever share with the Americans. And it is not just in buying military products. A lot of R&D started off with Russian help. They provided us with help even when sanctions were imposed after the nuclear test.

Will we gain if tech is shared with Indian organisations? Of course, we will. Are we game for it? Yes. What does the US want in return? A market to sell its military hardware, ease to do business in the Indian market and a partner who will be part of a NATO like organisation. While the first 2 points are easy and India will agree, we do not see it in our strategic interests to be part of an Asian NATO.

Now you say, US gains nothing from helping India with her MIC. Fine. Nobody is holding a gun to the US head. Do not help. The problem for the Americans, is that if not Americans there are others ready to collaborate with. Its plain and simple business.

I find many Americans over estimating Indian need for American tech, while Indians over playing our strategic presence. Let's be clear. We do not want war with the Chinese. Not because, we are weak. But, it does not make any sense. The Chinese do not want war, because, the opponent can do unacceptable damage. So you have a stand off. The only sticking point is the border issue. If the Indo-Sino border is solved, you will find India moving away from any kind of interference from the SCS.



Unfortunately, that is never going to happen. Our cutting edge tech is Israeli, French and Russian. But, slowly getting replaced with Indian tech. Think about us like the French+. We have all the attitude of the French with the added one of saying we will not be part of an military alliance like NATO, targeting a specific country. Even if that country is China.

Today's China is aggressive and not going to settle any border disputes. However, tomorrow's China maybe better? Let's hope. Anyone in their right mind would see how bizarre Chinas claims are wrt to SCS. They do it only because the other nations around them are way too weak against them. If we intend to make a difference, we should build our nation into a new economical and military powerhouse. Anyways I'lll be really interested to see how long we can continue this no-alignment game. The longer the better. But forever? Maybe not!

P.S: I hope we can all maintain the same enthusiasm for China after the next NSG meet?

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

Today's China is aggressive and not going to settle any border disputes. However, tomorrow's China maybe better? Let's hope. Anyone in their right mind would see how bizarre Chinas claims are wrt to SCS. They do it only because the other nations around them are way too weak against them. If we intend to make a difference, we should build our nation into a new economical and military powerhouse. Anyways I'lll be really interested to see how long we can continue this no-alignment game. The longer the better. But forever? Maybe not!

P.S: I hope we can all maintain the same enthusiasm for China after the next NSG meet?

Good Day!

It's completely in our interest to be non-aligned at least for the next 35 years. Why should we fight for others? What have others done for us?

The day we start an alliance model, it will not be with large countries, it will be with small countries for mutual defence, like ASEAN.

 

[surya kiran]

Today's China is aggressive and not going to settle any border disputes. However, tomorrow's China maybe better? Let's hope. Anyone in their right mind would see how bizarre Chinas claims are wrt to SCS. They do it only because the other nations around them are way too weak against them. If we intend to make a difference, we should build our nation into a new economical and military powerhouse. Anyways I'lll be really interested to see how long we can continue this no-alignment game. The longer the better. But forever? Maybe not!

P.S: I hope we can all maintain the same enthusiasm for China after the next NSG meet?

Good Day!

NSG no NSG. If China creates hurdles, there will be repercussions. As simple as that. If they do not create hurdles, business continues. But, I think, we are beyond the lines where we said there will be no consequences if someone does something to us. There will be a cost and that cost will be felt.

 

[R!CK]

It's completely in our interest to be non-aligned at least for the next 35 years. Why should we fight for others? What have others done for us?

The day we start an alliance model, it will not be with large countries, it will be with small countries for mutual defence, like ASEAN.

Lol I am definitely not saying we should join NATO and start bombing missions at Syria tomorrow. I was just against the argument that US is doing things for us for free with no expectations of a return favour.

And who said military and economic relationships are not linked? We should have been the biggest trade partner for Pakistan if that was the case.

P.S: These are just personal opinions. I'lll repeat again, if the current friction between India and China continues over the next decade, India is definitely going to support US in whatever little form they can if a conflict occurs. Maybe intelligence, maybe basing rights, maybe assistance? Who knows? But China should consider this possibility and work towards reducing this friction. The country is definitely not going to sit silent and do nothing each time China shoots down India's interest in the global arena. It may do it for now, but once u have a well balanced economy and military? Maybe not!

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

But China should consider this possibility and work towards reducing this friction. The country is definitely not going to sit silent and do nothing each time China shoots down India's interest in the global arena. It may do it for now, but once u have a well balanced economy and military? Maybe not!

Good Day!

The Chinese and Americans are both trying to court India. And both countries are using Pak to their advantage against India. China more so than America.