Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag

[Armani]

I won't be reading much into the US fighter proposals for now...but I will say this : the US must understand that it's
two fighter offers (F/A-18 and F-16) were already rejected in the MMRCA - therefore cannot hold a candle to the top qualifying contenders.

When this is the case, by linking a potential engine JV program to this lackluster fighter offer, I feel the US is purging whatever little chances it has of actually striking a deal for either program!

Secondly, the US must also remember that whatever engine tech that it may be ready to share is nothing that India cannot acquire from alternative sources like Russia or France. Core technologies will not be shared by anyone, and we know that too well - so we're not really talking about much here when you say "transfer of tech".

 

[anant_s]

I suppose RAFALE + M88 and/or SNECMA assistance on KAVERI is a a better option.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Sadly ET written stuff is already in Rafale Sticky for months.

The world class facility is already known under a JV route with TASL.

What folks need to understand is that minimum 24jets a year is the production capacity of Boeing line meaning we have to order minimum 150+ jets for line to be feasible.

Of course cost will be added for such transfer and hence a larger order is needed for financial feasibility.

Secondly we have to sign all foundation agreement in order to get Senate approval for all such tech transfer.

Thirdly, metallurgy and the core module might not be accessible for complete TOT bcz there is IPR involved along with R&D cost which has to be offsetted by a much larger number of engine numbers deal.

Lastly, we might have to tow Foreign policy of US or in simple words may have to accept ourselves as "vassal state". Folks have to understand UK, Israel, Japan and South Korea are allies of USA for longer time abd yet they get how much access is a public knowledge. So think for a moment only a China factor will not allow them to place India ahead of all of them and adhere to so called technology sharing.

Very soon you folks will hear the truth of the so called engine tech transfer and cost associated with it..

Mark my words, and i rarely said this but if government allows this whole deal then its a disaster completely. Thankfully sources said DM MP has given a go slow and wait approach for the jet engine and US fighter cooperation after returning from USA. It will come out soon in public domain also.

No matter how many more articles come and paint USA as Indian ally it's not really the case. Wait and watch the game being played out.

 

[Ali Zadi]

The F16 engine is a beauty more so than the F18, that said I have my apprehensions on the ToT for the engine. A stealth F16 as I have said before would be a good deal but that is only possible if we are given all the research allotted to and from the F16 projects and we are allowed to modify F16 further with the assist of the original maker.

A quick stealth upgrade would be enclosed weapon bays L+R and RAM and electronic jammers.

 

[kaykay]

I suppose RAFALE + M88 and/or SNECMA assistance on KAVERI is a a better option.

But also the costly one. At the end I'll be happy with any fighter provided it should be inked soon....we have already lost years due to criminal indecisiveness.

 

[jha]

American fighter under MII is very difficult. Buying Rafale in hundreds will surely be costly. Wonder which plane willbe finally inducted ?

 

[Skull and Bones]

If we are going with 100+ Rafales, then the cost effective F-16 makes more sense. Or I'd prefer F-18 SH. But the flight per hour cost of F-18SH is not that higher than F-16 either, maybe 20% higher. In terms of operating cost, F-18 is one of the cheapest twin engined aircraft there is.

 

[Taygibay]

Pakistani F-16 and Indian F-16 will be totally different just like Chinese Su-30 and Indian MKI.

They'll be even more different than that as the Indian F-16 won't exist.

not very much comfy with buying that many jets from US.. as it may create problems in future..

Or now actually as such a re-localization would necessitate
the signing of deepest level agreements on tech control ...

If on top of the "killing off Tejas" part in this equation, you
can't fathom the poisonous gift of a closing production line in
order to gain your subservience to their way of doing things,
you got another thing coming.

Just sayin', Tay.

 

[Kinetic]

The US has linked the future of a joint jet engine development project to a proposal to manufacture American combat aircraft under the Make in India initiative, with Pentagon formally putting all options on the table, including sharing of high-end weapons, radar and power plant technology, during Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's recent visit.

Sources told ET that India will now be able to formally evaluate two proposals from US companies Boeing (F/A 18 Super Hornet) and
Lockheed Martin (F16 Super Viper) to make jets in India with Pentagon giving a written assurance for transfer of technology.

A renewed push for the jet aircraft project came during the Parrikar visit, with an assurance that high-end jet engine technology that India seeks for its future combat aircraft programmes is also on the table.

In fact, officials told ET that US Secretary for Defence Ashton Carter may be visiting India as early as December to take the process forward. Sources who took part in the discussions said that while in April, when the two US companies had first offered the two jets for a Make in India plan, there was reluctance in Washington on how much technology could be shared.

However recent initiatives, including India's entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and the signing of a military logistics support agreement, have changed things on the ground.

It is learnt that the offer from Boeing, which makes the F/A 18, is for the setting up of a new worldclass production facility in India that would cater to the production of futuristic combat aircraft.

Lockheed Martin proposes to shift its F 16 fighter line from Texas to India as the sole production facility in the world.

As reported first by ET, in April rivals Boeing and Lockheed Martin jointly met top defence ministry officials in New Delhi offering to locally manufacture the fighter jets.


The offer came after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar publicly stated that the ministry is interested in setting up production lines for 'one or two' fighters at the earliest, beyond the Rafale fighter jet deal with France.


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

In foreseeable future I can see modern aero engine technology is most crucial for India and after developing a FADEC Kaveri also we have to accept we are no where near for a 130 kN engine.

A handful companies has capability to design, develop and manufacture new generation engines,

GE
P&W
Rolls Royce
Safran
NPO Saturn

And as usual USA is way ahead of others. Russia still developing its izdeliye 30 while US has F135. There was an agreement with Boeing that if we buy C-17 they gonna help us setting facility for high altitude engine test bed. What happened to that?

 

[wiseone2]

In foreseeable future I can see modern aero engine technology is most crucial for India and after developing a FADEC Kaveri also we have to accept we are no where near for a 130 kN engine.

A handful companies has capability to design, develop and manufacture new generation engines,

GE
P&W
Rolls Royce
Safran
NPO Saturn

And as usual USA is way ahead of others. Russia still developing its izdeliye 30 while US has F135. There was an agreement with Boeing that if we buy C-17 they gonna help us setting facility for high altitude engine test bed. What happened to that?

If India improves infrastructure and gets some electronic manufacturing shifted from China to India it will go a long way in improving our security

I do not see how transfer of technology can be accomplished for jet engines. the best America can do is to supply a large number of engines to avoid future sanctions

 

[Kinetic]

If India improves infrastructure and gets some electronic manufacturing shifted from China to India it will go a long way in improving our security

I do not see how transfer of technology can be accomplished for jet engines. the best America can do is to supply a large number of engines to avoid future sanctions

The private companies in India need to absorb technology over years. If US/Russia helps us to develop a test facility tha is good point to start with.

 

[zebra7]

Will USA able to sell us 200 fighters in a matter of 5 years? Our fleet strength is depleting and Tejas production rate is not good enough to fill the gaps. In a two front war we may need huge number of fighters. While Tejas, Migs and Mirages fight Pakistan we can have F-16, MKI ready for China. A second production line by a private firm for F-16 is OK.

I am interested in AESA, electronic warfare and Aim-120D.

Guys, Any idea about the specs of F-16 Block 70? Cost?

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer@Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair@TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @Levina @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222@CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino@noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @others

Kinetic Bhai few counter questions :-

1) As parikrama post suggests that the cost of the F-16 block 70 proposed for the India, won't be cheap and would be in the same range of cost of the Rafale, if you add the infra and the spares cost for the 5 years advanced.

2) You are interested in AIM-120D, may I ask why ? if the answer is because it is the most advanced and have most kill under its belt, then the answer is that the AIM 120D which is supplied to the other nations other than US is of Import quality and not which the USAF or USNAF uses.

3) Interested in U.S AESA, and Jammers and Fast Data Link -- Did India have signed CISMOA and BECA to take the full advantages of the bird, and did all other assets of the IAF's is compatible with the U.S/NATO link 16 and network.

4) Are you ready to induct the US birds, with a clause which gives full rights to the U.S OEMs to make survey and checks in our Bases any time round the year.

5) How many F-16 block 70/72 existed in the world today.

Answer these and then again ask whether you are interested in U.S Aesa and aim 120 D

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Kinetic Bhai few counter questions :-

1) As parikrama post suggests that the cost of the F-16 block 70 proposed for the India, won't be cheap and would be in the same range of cost of the Rafale, if you add the infra and the spares cost for the 5 years advanced.

2) You are interested in AIM-120D, may I ask why ? if the answer is because it is the most advanced and have most kill under its belt, then the answer is that the AIM 120D which is supplied to the other nations other than US is of Import quality and not which the USAF or USNAF uses.

3) Interested in U.S AESA, and Jammers and Fast Data Link -- Did India have signed CISMOA and BECA to take the full advantages of the bird, and did all other assets of the IAF's is compatible with the U.S/NATO link 16 and network.

4) Are you ready to induct the US birds, with a clause which gives full rights to the U.S OEMs to make survey and checks in our Bases any time round the year.

5) How many F-16 block 70/72 existed in the world today.

Answer these and then again ask whether you are interested in U.S Aesa and aim 120 D

solid questions which should be asked to everyone.

Answer them yourselves and you will see the whole facade and how things are really

Again you post so little bro, you should post more and away from all the other troll infested place.. Rational discourse is a necessity. Add views so that we all can debate and understand better.

In foreseeable future I can see modern aero engine technology is most crucial for India and after developing a FADEC Kaveri also we have to accept we are no where near for a 130 kN engine.

A handful companies has capability to design, develop and manufacture new generation engines,

GE
P&W
Rolls Royce
Safran
NPO Saturn

And as usual USA is way ahead of others. Russia still developing its izdeliye 30 while US has F135. There was an agreement with Boeing that if we buy C-17 they gonna help us setting facility for high altitude engine test bed. What happened to that?

I can get you P&W view on this surely. At least by someone who can give you what they think and may think as part of their strategy

@Nilgiri
This is your domain professional part. You think P&W will share engine tech not necessarily F135 but other engines as well.

What you see as chief issues and challenges? If you could write some pointers it would be good.

I am looking for all readers to understand what Engine makers from USA would view as issues, challenges for such a Make In India program for Jet Engines.
And also any solution is there to realistically get it done here?
And any chance we can apply what we learned with the TOT part for a higher thrust NG Kaveri engine program?

+++
@zebra7 @MilSpec @Vergennes @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @R!CK @Armani @others
Can you help point some challenges as well. So that Jet Engine technology point can be discussed and understood more. Its to have a more realistic approach.

 

[zebra7]

Again you post so little bro, you should post more and away from all the other troll infested place.. Rational discourse is a necessity. Add views so that we all can debate and understand better.

Brother you are doing great job and I like to read more, specially you and few members also like nilgiri, hellfire, omega007.

Why I posted less is because there are many who answer all the points, but you would have observed that I replied and answer when it becomes too much to get deviated from the topic. I also feels that my way of thinking is different, and may be some of the members won't like my view that's why I posted less.

 

[Kinetic]

Kinetic Bhai few counter questions :-

1) As parikrama post suggests that the cost of the F-16 block 70 proposed for the India, won't be cheap and would be in the same range of cost of the Rafale, if you add the infra and the spares cost for the 5 years advanced.

2) You are interested in AIM-120D, may I ask why ? if the answer is because it is the most advanced and have most kill under its belt, then the answer is that the AIM 120D which is supplied to the other nations other than US is of Import quality and not which the USAF or USNAF uses.

3) Interested in U.S AESA, and Jammers and Fast Data Link -- Did India have signed CISMOA and BECA to take the full advantages of the bird, and did all other assets of the IAF's is compatible with the U.S/NATO link 16 and network.

4) Are you ready to induct the US birds, with a clause which gives full rights to the U.S OEMs to make survey and checks in our Bases any time round the year.

5) How many F-16 block 70/72 existed in the world today.

Answer these and then again ask whether you are interested in U.S Aesa and aim 120 D

If cost is as much as Rafale than big no. Thats why I asked about cost. But I heard a quote, 'saasta and tikao' about F-.16.

See AIM-120D, SABR radar, jammers has nothing to do with CISMOA. there is a secure network held by US military around the world. Any compromise will break down entire US military which is more networked then ever. Basically CISMOA will matter if we want live data of Chinese submarines transmitted to our assets from US systems. Anyway..

In any case just like P-8, Apache, C-17 (these have already high end techs) are not subjected to US checks in our bases.

But I repeat we should buy F-16 only if meet all prerequisites but one thing for sure SABR + AIM-120D + ALQ jammers will be better to deal with Chinese who are already familiar with Russian systems we have.