Partition was a mistake

[EagleEyes]

and specially Indians .. they believe in one truth but they accept the difference in perception . this is part of our culture and thats why you see so much diversity in India. (unlike Pakistan)

Isn't this what is the base of human society?

Or are the Indians special in this criteria?

Perhaps lack of understanding on your part about other cultures?

Or is it self delusion and nationalism that has hurt your case?

Diversity is based on acceptance, and existence of different cultures. Some people accept it as a good understanding, others are forced to accept what is given to them.

 

[Mustapha]

Salaams,

Lets not even start discussing the situation of Dalits in India!

My response to the poll is that yes its moderately offensive in the sense that, during that era mostly Hindus had political influence and also had better educational opportunities. So basically Pakistan was supposed to be state for MUSLIMS .Also a question I would like to pose, why do we see that atleast 50% of Indian expats are Muslims that go to the Gulf States to fufill their "Dreams?" Halarious isn't it?


Lol, people say it was Jinnah made a mistake LOL!

It was first Muslim Philosopher Allama Muhammad Iqbal who first thought of the idea of having an Islamic state in North-Eastern India.

 

[Malang]

Salaams,
Lets not even start discussing the situation of Dalits in India!

Mustapha,
Discrimination overt or covert in India is a fact of life.. as it is the case all over the world...
To say the situation of Dalits is mighty comfortable is an understatement but upon comparing their situation y-o-y or d-o-d or century-on-century it has improved dramatically..

Dalits were not allowed to draw water from the same well, kept as bonded labour basically present day conditions of Hari's of Sindh would give you an Idea how it was like in India 5-6 decades back for a dalit...

Today FYI,

A Dalit Woman (Mayawati of Chamar caste) is a CM of the most populous and possibly the most feudal state of India..

A Dalit was (and is) (Narendar Modi OBC) the CM of Gujarat when Godhra riots took place.

A Dalit (Lalu Prasad Yadav of Cowherd Caste/OBC) ruled the second most feudal and populus state for almost a decade and is right now amongst the most famous Indian Politician.

There are thousands of examples...

My response to the poll is that yes its moderately offensive in the sense that, during that era mostly Hindus had political influence and also had better educational opportunities.

That means the British discriminated not Hindus or Muslims...
in fact If I remember history correctly
1. Hindus were more educated and proficient in English than Muslims which is to be blamed on a greater effort by Hindus and a lack of effort by Muslims..
2. Political Influence of Muslims was almost equal to if not greater to Hindus and much greater than other communities.. How else do you explain Pakistan's creation? Muslims had a lot of clout and Pakistan was created because of it (& also to protect their clout)

So basically Pakistan was supposed to be state for MUSLIMS .

Absolutely...

Also a question I would like to pose, why do we see that atleast 50% of Indian expats are Muslims that go to the Gulf States to fufill their "Dreams?" Halarious isn't it?

I have no idea as to the religion of expats posted in Gulf States, could you a provide a source for this?
I am guessing probably because of cultural and religious similarities?
What do you mean by fulfilling their dreams?

Lol, people say it was Jinnah made a mistake LOL!

What is there to laugh about? Jinnah was not God but a Human.. and his ideology has both staunch supporters and opposers

It was first Muslim Philosopher Allama Muhammad Iqbal who first thought of the idea of having an Islamic state in North-Eastern India.

If I remember correctly Iqbal was quite pro-India and all of a sudden he did an about-turn on his position... btw didn't Iqbal's father convert to Islam by the threat of sword??

 

[Malang]

Isn't this what is the base of human society?

Fundamentals of Society rapidly change.. what was unacceptable a century back is today acceptable and vice versa..

Or are the Indians special in this criteria?

Indian society was quite mature and civilized even in olden times and even during the so-called dark ages was a shining example of a civilised society.. (not to say it is utopian but it is not as it is portrayed by some of its worst critics)
India has provided shelter to all those seeking refuge.. and is like a sponge which absorbs from others..
Even in Present days India has an eclectic mix of ethnicities, religions etc. which are surprisingly getting on quite well... whereas other nations under the British rule are reeling under all sorts of problems...
So yes Indians are special in this case..

Diversity is based on acceptance, and existence of different cultures. Some people accept it as a good understanding, others are forced to accept what is given to them.

(Unity in) Diversity is based not only acceptance but respect and understanding.. and also a common platform/meeting ground/goal...

No wonder Asoka said this 2 millenia ago..
"Therefore contact (between religions) is good. One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions."

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Refer back to my previous posts and you would find how diverse and secular Indian society is.

Perhaps a glimpse of the Babri incident, Gujrat mascre, Cast divisions and many others may refresh your memory?

A wise man once said "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."

Perhaps the razing of Hindu temples, burning of Churches and the great Blasphemy Law may refresh your memory.

In India, Mosl*ems have their Personal Law to protect their religious rites even if it goes against the Constitution!!!!!

So, it is apples and oranges.

Your education system and how it subverts history is well known. There are Commissions of Pakistan which indicate so. Read!

Doctor heal thyself!!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Please note you have to have a minority population to have a Gujerat, reprehensible that is may be.

Have you realised that you have done a Gujerat long before.

So, let us not hallucinate.

The minuscule that your ethnic cleaning has not cleaned are being cleaned with your all encompassing Blasphemy Law, which is the most ridiculous thing and brain and logic denied ever heard. Imagine, a law stating that Ram. Jesus or Buddha cannot be commented upon because he is beyond comment.

Indeed, they can't be commented upon, but only to fools who have sold their brains of analysis!

Indeed, only the illiterate and rank stupid and those who are afraid of the Truth are the one who subscribe to the concept of Blind Faith!

 

[su-47]

i think partition was good. in pre-partition India, muslims an hindus were killing each other like it was a sport. partition enabled those muslims who didnt want to live in a hindu-majority country to form their own nation, and thus stopped the bloodshed. the muslims who remained in india were the ones who were willing to co-exist peacefuuly with the hindus.

now, to pakistanis who insist that indian muslims are discriminted against, all i can tell you is that you have to live in india to understand that the discrimination here is very low. i can never deny that it exists, but the general level is incredibly low that most muslims dont even mention it. in fact, the level of discrimination the muslims feel in india is much less than the amount of discrimination felt by foreigners in europe, middle east or america.

now the reason the discrimination issue is so alive in india is because of gangs of fanatic hindus who kill muslims, like during the gujarat riots, and also due to muslim extremists who attack hindus. but these incidences are rare, and seldom are muslims persecued against in everyday life. news of discrimination do come up in newspapers, but if you consider the number of muslims in india (which is more than the number of muslims in pakistan), the amount of discriminatory incidences are a very low percentage. if you take the number of violent, religious incidents in post-independant india, and compare it to the population of india, you'll see that it is a very small percentage.

Now, when you listen to media, you have to take into account that pakistani and indian media portray each other pretty negatively. pakistani media claims indian muslims feel discriminated against and alienated, whereas indian media sometimes portrays pakistanis as islamic fundamentalists bent on global jihad. neither situation is true.

most indian muslims are glad to be in india and that's a fact pakistanis have to accept. just like pakistanis feel offended when indians say partition was a mistake or when pakistan is portrayed as a terrorist nation, indians feel offended when pakistanis claim that indian muslims are trodden down. so i would like to appela to all pakistani friends who claim indian muslims are downtrodden to come and actually witness the situation in india before going on about it.

 

[Mustapha]

Salaams,

Errr... Sir Allama Iqbal's Daddy was a Shaikh, and his name was Nur Muhammad. However yes, his Grandfather was a Hindu presumeably a Kashmiri Hindu with the name of Sahaj Ram Sapru. He was also a Kashmiri official who stole money from the state. Therefore Azim Khan the Afghan Governor gave him the choice of either the death penalty or stay alive and convert to Islam.

Obviously he was not converted by the "sword" and one more thing; using the cliche expression "convertion by the sword" truely shows your ignorance about the expansion of Islam. And Heck you thought his father was a Hindu, Do you anything about his personal life, or are you reading biased Indian-based books?
Buddy go get yourself a History textbook or better yet an Autobiography of Allama Muhammad Iqbal, and then come back to me.

UMMM...Why would Indian Muslims be leaving to the GULF STATES for a better life, than staying in India. There are those who even picked up UAE Passports. Evidently it shows they are happier in the Gulf states than they are in their on home land!!!


Post Script: Malang, I'm simply appalled of how you didn't understand "dreams." They wanted to pursue their monetary dreams in the Gulf States so they could get a better life and since the Gulf states are muslim; they would get better treatment. It should been very obvious to you!

Check this out: Allama Iqbal - Biography - Text
Perhaps that will give you a better understanding

 

[Always Neutral]

Salaams,

Errr... Sir Allama Iqbal's Daddy was a Shaikh, and his name was Nur Muhammad. However yes, his Grandfather was a Hindu presumeably a Kashmiri Hindu with the name of Sahaj Ram Sapru. He was also a Kashmiri official who stole money from the state. Therefore Azim Khan the Afghan Governor gave him the choice of either the death penalty or stay alive and convert to Islam.

Obviously he was not converted by the "sword" and one more thing; using the cliche expression "convertion by the sword" truely shows your ignorance about the expansion of Islam.!

Dear Mustapha,

What does it mean when one says "Convert or Die" ? It does mean conversion by the sword.

Azim Khan was a tyrant by all accounts, instead of defending him you should condemn him for bringing disrepute to Islam. Even if Ram Sapru was a thief he should have been punished not forced to choose between his neck and the change of his religion.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

Salaams,

UMMM...Why would Indian Muslims be leaving to the GULF STATES for a better life, than staying in India. There are those who even picked up UAE Passports. Evidently it shows they are happier in the Gulf states than they are in their on home land!!! Post Script: Malang, I'm simply appalled of how you didn't understand "dreams." They wanted to pursue their monetary dreams in the Gulf States so they could get a better life and since the Gulf states are muslim; they would get better treatment. It should been very obvious to you!

D

So by your analogy all the poor and rich pakistanis who drive taxis (you will 100s and 1000s of them) and do business and have UAE/ British passports are all being discriminated in Pakistan so they have gone to the Gulf States /UK/USA for a better life ?

 

[Malang]

Salaams,
Errr... Sir Allama Iqbal's Daddy was a Shaikh, and his name was Nur Muhammad. However yes, his Grandfather was a Hindu presumeably a Kashmiri Hindu with the name of Sahaj Ram Sapru. He was also a Kashmiri official who stole money from the state. Therefore Azim Khan the Afghan Governor gave him the choice of either the death penalty or stay alive and convert to Islam.
Obviously he was not converted by the "sword"

Threat of sword aka threat of death...
Thanks for clearing my doubt about Allama's background..

and one more thing; using the cliche expression "convertion by the sword" truely shows your ignorance about the expansion of Islam.

I well and truly believe a significant number of South Asians muslims converted to Islam for either political, monetary purposes or under threat of sword.. so their reasons for conversion were less theological/spritual/faith/pious/pak/islamic etc...

And Heck you thought his father was a Hindu, Do you anything about his personal life, or are you reading biased Indian-based books?
Buddy go get yourself a History textbook or better yet an Autobiography of Allama Muhammad Iqbal, and then come back to me.

I believe my assertion came with rider.. "if I remember correctly"

UMMM...Why would Indian Muslims be leaving to the GULF STATES for a better life, than staying in India. There are those who even picked up UAE Passports. Evidently it shows they are happier in the Gulf states than they are in their on home land!!!

I asked you to provide source on the religion and percentage of Indians leaving for Arab States.,, nor is it easy to get UAE passports if I am correct..

Evidently it shows like the rest of the expats from Philipines, Nepal and non Muslim Indians they are getting better pay...
Most Expats do come back I don't know if they wish this...
Arab States have recently been in the news for all kinds of HR abuses against workers from the subcontinent.

Post Script: Malang, I'm simply appalled of how you didn't understand "dreams." They wanted to pursue their monetary dreams in the Gulf States so they could get a better life and since they muslim states they would get better treatment. It should been very obvious to you!

Of course they are there to make money... dreams of having a better life more money and possibly save some money to splurge in their homeland most likely...

Honestly Mustapha if South Asians incl Muslims are treated as well as Gora infidels in most Gulf states I would be shocked...

 

[Malang]

I believe Shaikhs are descendants of Hindus (mostly uppercastes)...
Sharifs/Sayyids are descendants of Prophet...

 

[roadrunner]

Today FYI,

A Dalit Woman (Mayawati of Chamar caste) is a CM of the most populous and possibly the most feudal state of India..

A Dalit was (and is) (Narendar Modi OBC) the CM of Gujarat when Godhra riots took place.

A Dalit (Lalu Prasad Yadav of Cowherd Caste/OBC) ruled the second most feudal and populus state for almost a decade and is right now amongst the most famous Indian Politician.

There are thousands of examples...

Do name the the other 997 or so..If it's too much just name another 10 such examples. That would be enough..You can do that, can't you?

I'm not sure about the well thing. I'm pretty sure it still goes on.

"Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls," said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables." Human Rights Watch is a worldwide activist organization based in New York.
India's "Untouchables" Face Violence, Discrimination

That from 2003. The Dalits are retaliating, but the law does nothing for them. The law like most of the shining examples of Dalits you quote is just a symbol.

The Muslims have their Personal Law boards.. and if a Muslim wants to have 4 wives in India he can... this is an extension of freedom to follow one's religion and its tenets..
All India Muslim Personal Law Board

"In what may come as a big relief to the Muslim women, their husbands would not be able to get rid of their wives in future by simply reciting talaaq, talaaq, talaaq. The All-India Muslim Personal Law Board is set to ban this practice from next month and ratify the new model talaqnama."
Muslim board to divorce 'triple talaq'-India-The Times of India

As for Property it is dependent on the will of the deceased and if there is no will then the laws of HUF or AIMPLB take place.. (I am not a lawyer so I wouldn't know exactly)

The point about me giving those examples was to show Indian Law with all its personal laws is discriminatory. What a Hindu can get away with, a Muslim may not be able to get away with and vica versa. It is much like you saying, that Pakistani Law is discriminatory. What a Muslim can get away with a Hindu cannot get away with. But this isn't true. Pakistan's laws apply to all.

I haven't heard of a non muslim man marrying a muslim woman...

How exactly is the law discriminating here? Why should the law force any woman into marrying any person. It is an individual choice. If you feel offended by it, let me suggest somewhere you will have more success?

Matrimony > Tamil Matrimony > Tamil Matrimonials

And what about the Blasphemy laws???

The Blasphemy Law has been changed afaik. Though blaspheming is still a crime.

It also makes it illegal in Pakistani constitution for dictators to come and usurp power.. Pakistani constitution has been fundamentally changed many times though.. judges are fired and appointed at will... GoP at the moment is in a state of flux...

You've missed the point again. This is what you said

"Indian constitution, courts do not discriminate which is the ultimate requirement.. Pakistani constitution does discriminate from what I understand..."

Pakistan's Constitution does not discriminate. I simply proved you wrong, not whether the Constitution or Laws were upheld.

Though the President of Pakistan is permitted to suspend the CJ pending trial. It's very legal.

if I believe cognate civilizations of Indus valley were found all over Northern India.. with the best preserved examples being in Pakistan...
as for Indus valley never being part of India, Indus was the river which was used to name India..

Keep telling yourself that indeed!

India or Saptha Sindhu was the name given to the Indus Valley by the Rig Vedic peoples. It changed into India due to pronunciation differences of successive invaders. Then in 1947, Nehru pilfered the name India, but kept the name "Bharat" in reserve in case Pakistanis started waking up to the thieving that had been committed.

You can believe all of North India had Indus Valley Civilizations. The reality is far different!

I have seen a few articles on Indus Valley, Mehrgarh historians point them out as Indo/Indian civilizations... Zionist propaganda perhaps??

Just a reference to the "Indian subconitinent". Again, the term Indian to describe a Pakistani person is construed as offensive to a degree. Of course when you change the name to Bharat, as it should be, then the term Indian will be less offensive I guess.

 

[salman nedian]

Salaams,

Errr... Sir Allama Iqbal's Daddy was a Shaikh, and his name was Nur Muhammad. However yes, his Grandfather was a Hindu presumeably a Kashmiri Hindu with the name of Sahaj Ram Sapru. He was also a Kashmiri official who stole money from the state. Therefore Azim Khan the Afghan Governor gave him the choice of either the death penalty or stay alive and convert to Islam.

Obviously he was not converted by the "sword" and one more thing; using the cliche expression "convertion by the sword" truely shows your ignorance about the expansion of Islam. And Heck you thought his father was a Hindu, Do you anything about his personal life, or are you reading biased Indian-based books?
Buddy go get yourself a History textbook or better yet an Autobiography of Allama Muhammad Iqbal, and then come back to me.

UMMM...Why would Indian Muslims be leaving to the GULF STATES for a better life, than staying in India. There are those who even picked up UAE Passports. Evidently it shows they are happier in the Gulf states than they are in their on home land!!!


Post Script: Malang, I'm simply appalled of how you didn't understand "dreams." They wanted to pursue their monetary dreams in the Gulf States so they could get a better life and since the Gulf states are muslim; they would get better treatment. It should been very obvious to you!

Check this out: Allama Iqbal - Biography - Text
Perhaps that will give you a better understanding

Indians may call it conversion by sword but the most important point is why didn’t the children of Sahaj Ram Sapru convert to Hinduism after the death of Azim khan?

Allama Iqbal gave the Idea for ‘Pakistan’ means his father adopted the religion from his heart that’s the reason why he refused to revert back to Hinduism.

Although Allama Iqbal was a great advocate of Hindu-Muslim unity but later on he saw the attitude of Indian National Congress For example, the sixth stanza of Saare Jahan Se Achcha (1904) is often quoted as proof of Iqbal's secular outlook:

mazhab nahin sikhata aapas men bair rakhna
hindi hain ham, watan hai hindustan hamara

or,

Religion does not teach us to bear ill-will among ourselves
We are of Hind, our homeland is Hindustan.

In contrast, the first stanza of Tarana-e-Milli (1910) reads:

cheen-o-arab hamara, hindustan hamara
muslim hain ham, watan hai sara jahān hamara

or,

Central Asia and Arabia are ours, Hindustan is ours
We are Muslims, the whole world is our homeland.

Iqbal's world view had now changed; it had become both global and Islamic. Instead of singing of India, "our homeland," the new song proclaimed that "our homeland is the whole world." Two decades later, in his presidential address to the Muslim League annual conference in Allahabad in 1930, he was to propose a separate nation-state in the Muslim majority areas of the sub-continent, an idea that inspired the creation of Pakistan.

Source of Info:Saare Jahan Se Achcha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Always Neutral]

I think partition was good for both Pakistan as well as India and now Bangladesh. It has allowed creation of a muslim state (pakistan) where majority of the muslims want to follow Islamic values and also a secular state (india) which as days go by with a good media and well educated middle class will intergrate into a harmonious society.

What needs however to be seen that after 60 years of independence what has India and Pakistan achieved for their respective populations.

Regards