Paris Air Show 2019 - Thunders in Europe

[Thorough Pro]

Once you are at the ground, you will snap pics of anything and everything. It really doesn't mean anything. What matters is the real customers and deals.=, which is quite challenging due to political alliances, perceptions, competition and affordability.

Guess everyone wanted to take selfie with SU killer

 

[FuturePAF]

now tell me bro does USAF or any air force that using F-16 using this type of nozzles to their fleets (LOAN) its experimental project for developing LOAN type nozzles for 5th gen jets, just like they did same for DSI development for F-35, and also bro if you fit LOAN tpye engine to 4th gen jets its increase its (JF-17 Block-3) cost at massive level, as you assume that WS-19 is not ready in near future and revealing of B3 is around the corner (expected in Spt/Oct this year by some senior members here on PDF) there will be least chance that B3 will get WS-19,if PAC/PAF have a plan to introduce next upgrades to JF-17 aka B4 than i could assume that it will use WS-19, just my 2 cent bro @FuturePAF

The DSI inlet has been applied to the JF-17 and the J-10 because it gives them jut that little bit of weight advantage. The USAF doesn't operate in that way, or else it could have upgrade its F-15s and F-16s to the standards they already export. Air Forces that can't afford to buy as many new planes and need to improve their current fleet look for upgrades like the LOAN nozzle.

The amount of Drag this nozzle would create means we need a higher thrust engine to compensate. When the WS-19 becomes available and the LOAN nozzle is also available, the PAF will study it and decide if its worth it (extra capabilities versus extra costs). In the meantime, they will focus on what they can do with what they can current procure, and wait till the engineers and budget office expand their options.

We should watch if we can get the RD-93MA and see how the Chinese try to match it and then exceed it. When the life of the Engine runs out on the Block III, watch for signs of the maturity of the WS-19 and its application in other Chinese programs. PAF is a smaller customer in comparison to the PLAAF And PLANAF for Chinese industry.

 

[CrazyZ]

Air Combat of the type that happened between the PAF and IAF is very rare in modern combat. Outside of brain washed India, most think the PAF JF-17 came on top in this dogfight which included advanced Flanker variants....a plane that most European Air forces have been concerned with for years.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The DSI inlet has been applied to the JF-17 and the J-10 because it gives them jut that little bit of weight advantage. The USAF doesn't operate in that way, or else it could have upgrade its F-15s and F-16s to the standards they already export. Air Forces that can't afford to buy as many new planes and need to improve their current fleet look for upgrades like the LOAN nozzle.

You dont understand bro what i am trying to say, DSI/LOAN type nozzles is tested because for 5th gen development, at the time they tested LOAN/DSI tech on F-16 (mid to late 90s) production of F-16 was still running for USAF its could be easy to produce new F-16 with LOAN/DSI tech, and DSI not only save weight but simplify intakes properties and have a stealth function without complexities, (hide turbine blades of an engine) one of the main source of increased RCS signature to radars @FuturePAF

The amount of Drag this nozzle would create means we need a higher thrust engine to compensate. When the WS-19 becomes available and the LOAN nozzle is also available, the PAF will study it and decide if its worth it (extra capabilities versus extra costs). In the meantime, they will focus on what they can do with what they can current procure, and wait till the engineers and budget office expand their options.

cost main concern is cost but remember bro, its going to have heavier than WS-13E/RD-93MA, which will effect the performance of B3 @FuturePAF

We should watch if we can get the RD-93MA and see how the Chinese try to match it and then exceed it. When the life of the Engine runs out on the Block III, watch for signs of the maturity of the WS-19 and its application in other Chinese programs. PAF is a smaller customer in comparison to the PLAAF And PLANAF for Chinese industry.

Look at the progress of another Chinese engine WS-10 the basic version of WS-10 is in the same class of AL-31F/F-100/GE-110 engine but they upgrade WS-10 several times to be used in various version of J- series of their jets, WS-10 IPE is being used on J-20/J-10B with TVC with a thrust of 33,000 lbs, If PAF ask to China to upgrade WS-13E to another level like WS-10IPE does, so there is/will no need WS-19 or something like that @FuturePAF

 

[FuturePAF]

Once you are at the ground, you will snap pics of anything and everything. It really doesn't mean anything. What matters is the real customers and deals.=, which is quite challenging due to political alliances, perceptions, competition and affordability.

The JF-17 is on a marketing blitz; right around the corner from when the Block III is expected to take its first flight. Seeing the Block II is the next best thing. Members of the Public can include foreign military officers in civilian clothes. Reactions from observers can also help spot issues that can be addressed. There is a wealth of knowledge and expertise among some ex-military aviation enthusiasts. Going to the Paris Air Shows, assures potential customers like Egypt the PAF can buy and integrate from French sub-system suppliers and therefore bridging alliances. The Paris Air Show is good at keeping up the hype, while it is in active consideration, with the Malaysians. The two closest competitors are the Tejas and Gripen. If the JF-17 can match them in capability, at a lower price, and its options for the customers preferred sub-systems with its Pakistani Support package, it can be a win for point defense 4th generation market.

It an affordable but capable entry point for nations looking to forge deeper military relations with China, but not as flashy an aircraft that it will upset the relations of these nations with their western suppliers. This is why Saudi and Qatar purchases of these planes could be a possibility. It grants these nations access to more options on the munitions and electronics side, without having to go big and purchase a top-of-line platform that China may not want to sell with Western observers nearby. The JF-17 has to be seen, to be known, that it fills the niche in the market.

 

[FuturePAF]

You dont understand bro what i am trying to say, DSI/LOAN type nozzles is tested because for 5th gen development, at the time they tested LOAN/DSI tech on F-16 (mid to late 90s) production of F-16 was still running for USAF its could be easy to produce new F-16 with LOAN/DSI tech, and DSI not only save weight but simplify intakes properties and have a stealth function without complexities, (hide turbine blades of an engine) one of the main source of increased RCS signature to radars @FuturePAF

cost main concern is cost but remember bro, its going to have heavier than WS-13E/RD-93MA, which will effect the performance of B3 @FuturePAF

Look at the progress of another Chinese engine WS-10 the basic version of WS-10 is in the same class of AL-31F/F-100/GE-110 engine but they upgrade WS-10 several times to be used in various version of J- series of their jets, WS-10 IPE is being used on J-20/J-10B with TVC with a thrust of 33,000 lbs, If PAF ask to China to upgrade WS-13E to another level like WS-10IPE does, so there is/will no need WS-19 or something like that @FuturePAF

I understand the LOAN program was a developmental program tested on the F-16 but intended to be fielded on the F-35. It was never intended to be fielded on F-16s. My point was the DSI was a similar developmental program. The USAF left those programs as developmental programs, and the Chinese actually applied them to 4th generation aircraft. There is no reason the Chinese couldn't apply the LOAN nozzle to a WS-13, if the operators is willing to pay the weight penalty. If the Thrust of the WS-13, a hypothetical WS-13IPE, or the WS-19 exceeds the weight penalty, then the design can be evaluated on its signature reduction benefits.

I think PAF should put out a requirement letter to Klimov, Guizhou, and Shenyang (the original maker of the WS-19 and the current producer of the WS-10 and WS-15) as to the performance requirements needed, and see who can produce a superior engine, in the size and weight class of the Rd-93.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_Engine_Corporation_of_China#Turbofans

 

[Ultima Thule]

I understand the LOAN program was a developmental program tested on the F-16 but intended to be fielded on the F-35. It was never intended to be fielded on F-16s. My point was the DSI was a similar developmental program. The USAF left those programs as developmental programs, and the Chinese actually applied them to 4th generation aircraft. There is no reason the Chinese couldn't apply the LOAN nozzle to a WS-13, if the operators is willing to pay the weight penalty. If the Thrust of the WS-13, a hypothetical WS-13IPE, or the WS-19 exceeds the weight penalty, then the design can be evaluated on its signature reduction benefits.

I think PAF should put out a requirement letter to Klimov, Guizhou, and Shenyang (the original maker of the WS-19 and the current producer of the WS-10 and WS-15) as to the performance requirements needed, and see who can produce a superior engine, in the size and weight class of the Rd-93.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_Engine_Corporation_of_China#Turbofans

for your first part for why USAF LOAN type nozzles on any of its 4th jets is from my understanding major factor is costs and delays and least benefits for 4th gen jets, all 4th gen jets is not a true stealth jets i assume that's why they don't Put any LOAN/DSI tech on their 4th jets @FuturePAF

 

[xyxmt]

Once you are at the ground, you will snap pics of anything and everything. It really doesn't mean anything. What matters is the real customers and deals.=, which is quite challenging due to political alliances, perceptions, competition and affordability.

I thought we were allowed to make fun of Indians

 

[ziaulislam]

The JF-17 is on a marketing blitz; right around the corner from when the Block III is expected to take its first flight. Seeing the Block II is the next best thing. Members of the Public can include foreign military officers in civilian clothes. Reactions from observers can also help spot issues that can be addressed. There is a wealth of knowledge and expertise among some ex-military aviation enthusiasts. Going to the Paris Air Shows, assures potential customers like Egypt the PAF can buy and integrate from French sub-system suppliers and therefore bridging alliances. The Paris Air Show is good at keeping up the hype, while it is in active consideration, with the Malaysians. The two closest competitors are the Tejas and Gripen. If the JF-17 can match them in capability, at a lower price, and its options for the customers preferred sub-systems with its Pakistani Support package, it can be a win for point defense 4th generation market.

It an affordable but capable entry point for nations looking to forge deeper military relations with China, but not as flashy an aircraft that it will upset the relations of these nations with their western suppliers. This is why Saudi and Qatar purchases of these planes could be a possibility. It grants these nations access to more options on the munitions and electronics side, without having to go big and purchase a top-of-line platform that China may not want to sell with Western observers nearby. The JF-17 has to be seen, to be known, that it fills the niche in the market.

wont happen, it will be called a threat by USA, so arba countries cant get it unless, the whole avionic package is chnaged and CAC is fine with it..might not be now its not early 2000s any more

 

[khansaheeb]

Guess everyone wanted to take selfie with SU killer

And the plane that made Modi wet his dhoti.

 

[FuturePAF]

for your first part for why USAF LOAN type nozzles on any of its 4th jets is from my understanding major factor is costs and delays and least benefits for 4th gen jets, all 4th gen jets is not a true stealth jets i assume that's why they don't Put any LOAN/DSI tech on their 4th jets @FuturePAF

With High off-boresight IR guided WVR missiles and IRST becoming the norm, the LOAN Nozzles maybe worth the added weight. Electronic jamming from a pod or the aircraft own AESA radar can help degrade the enemy's ability to see you, but the IR spectrum is still open for detection.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...aft-IR-signature-studies-based-on-sources.png

https://www.telops.com/images/ir-signature.jpg

 

[Ultima Thule]

With High off-boresight IR guided WVR missiles and IRST becoming the norm, the LOAN Nozzles maybe worth the added weight. Electronic jamming from a pod or the aircraft own AESA radar can help degrade the enemy's ability to see you, but the IR spectrum is still open for detection.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...aft-IR-signature-studies-based-on-sources.png

Yes you're right bro but remember you can't eliminate IR RCS/signatures from your jets totally, and IR SRAAM/IRST are more sensitive than LOAN nozzles and LOAN nozzles can reduce your IR RCS at limited level, so Last and best defense is for these IR SRAAM/IRST is/will be flares and IR suppression systems not LOAN type nozzles but i can reduce your IR RCS little bit @FuturePAF

 

[FuturePAF]

wont happen, it will be called a threat by USA, so arba countries cant get it unless, the whole avionic package is chnaged and CAC is fine with it..might not be now its not early 2000s any more

Your right about the Gulf Arab Countries, but the Egyptians have been buying Chinese for decades. Just like the Rafale Deal, the Saudis could fund the Egyptian Air Forces purchase of the JF-17, but have the planes serve under Saudi Combat when called upon.

But on the other hand, Defense sales are down, and western suppliers don't want to lose any potential sales to competitors

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...airo-terminate-plans-to-aquire-russia-s-su-35

 

[FuturePAF]

Yes you're right bro but remember you can't eliminate IR RCS/signatures from your jets totally, and IR SRAAM/IRST are more sensitive LOAN nozzles and LOAN nozzles can reduce your IR RCS at limited level, so Last and best defense is for these IR SRAAM/IRST is/will be flares and IR suppression systems not LOAN type nozzles but i can reduce your IR RCS little bit @FuturePAF

Hence the need for a technical study by the PAF and the Chinese companies making the Nozzles. Putting a smaller version of the J-20 nozzle on a current Block II JF-17, they would be able to find out how much of a weight penalty the nozzle will create, as well as the reduced signatures that can be expected. Flying the modified plane against other fighters with IRST and equipped with Advanced IR missiles should be able to give PAF an answer. Its a R&D program the PAF should look into.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hence the need for a technical study by the PAF and the Chinese companies making the Nozzles. Putting a smaller version of the J-20 nozzle on a current Block II JF-17, they would be able to find out how much of a weight penalty the nozzle will create, as well as the reduced signatures that can be expected. Flying the modified plane against other fighters with IRST and equipped with Advanced IR missiles should be able to give PAF an answer. Its a R&D program the PAF should look into.

are you talking about current engine of J-20 which have no IR reduction features or you talking about during the development of J-20 (silver plated engine to reduce IR signature) or WS-15 if you talking about upcoming WS-15 we don't know that how it would look like (with LOAN nozzles or without it)
If you want do research/study For B2 so i think it useless for JF-17 because its takes lots time/$$$$ but its good for upcoming Pakistani 5th gen project PROJECT AZM @FuturePAF