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Panama Case - Post Verdict Discussion and Updates

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PakSword said:
Iss tasweer main jitni halaal kamai hai, utni shayad main apnay marnay tak bhi nahi dekh sakun..
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Usko ehsaas hai paise ki ghulaami ka.
Usko ehsaas hai bhook ki billak ka.
Usko ehsaas hai khud apni madad apka.

Wo jis cycle me paida hota hai ussi me reh jata hai. Caste system of Pakistan.

Yahan education status symbol hai. Hame ehsaas nahi hum usse behtar nahi. Kal diwaalia niklega mulk ka to wo hath pair me advance education me hoga. Baaki sab ek dosre ko nochenge.

Halal kama kar ye humse behtar shehri hai
 
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Just saw this and I found it amusing!

https://twitter.com/x/status/919971796413186048

https://twitter.com/x/status/920055416532488192

Malta car bomb kills Panama Papers journalist
Daphne Caruana Galizia, a blogger whose investigations focused on corruption, was described as a ‘one-woman WikiLeaks’




Maltese investigative journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia, who died on Monday afternoon. Photograph: Darrin Zammit Lupi/Reuters

Juliette Garside

@JulietteGarside
Monday 16 October 2017 18.33 BSTFirst published on Monday 16 October 2017 18.09 BST

The journalist who led the Panama Papers investigation into corruption in Malta was killed on Monday in a car bomb near her home.
 
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Shane said:
I completely understand your pov regarding non disclosure of information which may give away the political strategy being kept secret.

I have always repeated my disappointment on the "earlier" strategy of wait and watch(not the current as I am not privy to it or if it is any different) on its merits that inactivity (political or legal) amounts to political or legal surrender on current issues specially when the opponents are practically trying to gain political space on the same.

Theoretically speaking, Political space is earned on the ground through sustained struggle and is never sustainable in the long run on assurances or understandings or relying on just reacting while giving away open space for political activity to opponents. Thank God that their opponents are twice as inept PMLN.

What if PMLN calls PTIs bluff and the assemblies are dissolved now with the understanding of Zardari? Same old ECP, same old caretakers, same old ROs. Same old political turmoil.

Article 187 and 190 might not be the answer as PMLN and PPP lawyers in numbers are not going to be sitting idle at the whiff of such a possibility of technocrat govt.

So we are back to square one. Let's wait and watch out and pray for an opportunity. It looks like a disaster is in the making. May Allah Subhan Taala have mercy on Pakistan.
Click to expand...

My apologies for not responding to your post, I will try to respond without spilling the beans:

Right now, the situation of Nawaz is ultra weak and compromised because of:

1. Court appearances of entire family along with his main kingpin of scheme Ishaq Dar
2. Indictments & Warrants are being issued every other day.
3. Court hearing of entire Sharif family are scheduled for next six months
4. Sharif's frustrations are causing attacks on courts, army, SCP, rangers meaning all state institutions
5. Govt., Officers are being slapped by PMLN workers
6. Civilian supremacy is getting exposed
7. Ministers themselves are calling Pakistan Banana Republic self ridiculing themselves
8. Ministers claims; "I will resign", "Why IK is not being arrested?" "Army shouldn't talk about Economy.....err....I have no issue Army talking about Economy",
9. Sensitive topics being Brough into parliament flaring up SCP (Election Reform) and Tahafuzeh Risalat (topic that can help them in self immolation), Attacking Qadayani (we have already discussed) and in other breath defending Qadayani (what a joke they have become themselves).
10. Maryam ousting her own brothers by alienating them from Pakistan (whereas they had already said within family; they won't come; as per my last reports shared here .....thi made them laughing stock although media is not picking it up to further ridicule - PDO).
11. Entire PMLN is splitting with each day on it's own and every major group is running like a headless chicken in Islamabad.
12. Nawaz is acting as an absconder (bhagora)
13. Shahbaz is confused; whether to lead or stay put as Maryam is distancing herself and flirting with politics in Punjab without getting green signal from her chacha.
14. Nisar is always firing at Ahsan and Asif and taking a totally different line.
15. Safdar is self immolating himself every now and then.

All of the above should be revelled and enjoyed to the maximum as its damaging PMLN, once self destruction slows down, then attack the prey and go for the kill. It's pure politics. I hope PTI doesn't expedite the public mobilization earlier than what I voted for in recent discussions/meetings, as I know there is a group (like in all parties) which want to start agitation/more activism asap.

I can go on and on; but these are just a few examples where staying quiet-er is helping PTI defeat it's opponent through its own self destruction in most lethal way than anything else.

If, PTI comes out in open and start presenting itself with forceful posture; then all these self destruction will either slow down or stop totally; and it will start focusing on one or two converging issues which will slow down the weakening process of opponent.
 
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Realistic Change said:
My apologies for not responding to your post, I will try to respond without spilling the beans:

Right now, the situation of Nawaz is ultra weak and compromised because of:

1. Court appearances of entire family along with his main kingpin of scheme Ishaq Dar
2. Indictments & Warrants are being issued every other day.
3. Court hearing of entire Sharif family are scheduled for next six months
4. Sharif's frustrations are causing attacks on courts, army, SCP, rangers meaning all state institutions
5. Govt., Officers are being slapped by PMLN workers
6. Civilian supremacy is getting exposed
7. Ministers themselves are calling Pakistan Banana Republic self ridiculing themselves
8. Ministers claims; "I will resign", "Why IK is not being arrested?" "Army shouldn't talk about Economy.....err....I have no issue Army talking about Economy",
9. Sensitive topics being Brough into parliament flaring up SCP (Election Reform) and Tahafuzeh Risalat (topic that can help them in self immolation), Attacking Qadayani (we have already discussed) and in other breath defending Qadayani (what a joke they have become themselves).
10. Maryam ousting her own brothers by alienating them from Pakistan (whereas they had already said within family; they won't come; as per my last reports shared here .....thi made them laughing stock although media is not picking it up to further ridicule - PDO).
11. Entire PMLN is splitting with each day on it's own and every major group is running like a headless chicken in Islamabad.
12. Nawaz is acting as an absconder (bhagora)
13. Shahbaz is confused; whether to lead or stay put as Maryam is distancing herself and flirting with politics in Punjab without getting green signal from her chacha.
14. Nisar is always firing at Ahsan and Asif and taking a totally different line.
15. Safdar is self immolating himself every now and then.

All of the above should be revelled and enjoyed to the maximum as its damaging PMLN, once self destruction slows down, then attack the prey and go for the kill. It's pure politics. I hope PTI doesn't expedite the public mobilization earlier than what I voted for in recent discussions/meetings, as I know there is a group (like in all parties) which want to start agitation/more activism asap.

I can go on and on; but these are just a few examples where staying quiet-er is helping PTI defeat it's opponent through its own self destruction in most lethal way than anything else.

If, PTI comes out in open and start presenting itself with forceful posture; then all these self destruction will either slow down or stop totally; and it will start focusing on one or two converging issues which will slow down the weakening process of opponent.
Click to expand...

Gud strategy in the current scenario, just want to add few things which u cud pick up and raise in the party meetings, i strongly feel PTI must form a Think Tank which features the sane heads like Asad Umar, Ch. Sarwar, Jehangir Tarin, Shireen Mazari and other few visionary individual including IK himself and they must come up with the future planning and strategy for the country.... like how to take pakistan forward, what measures has to be taken in order to bring back economy on track, how to create more jobs for the educated youth, how to improve the health and education infrastructure across Pakistan, how to improve the law and order situation, how to improve the overall infrastructure of the country and so on. Compile a line of action for country which must be done in next five years or so and present it to the media and entire world, this is how you cud impress and bring international as well as local "Powers" into confidence, this can bring them hope and they wud start believing that "yes PTI and IK cud deliver for sure"
 
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PML N has taken slogans from PPP apparently because they have 'meesaq e jamhooriat', it still looks odd and shameless e.g. "ya Allah ya Rasool Nawaz Sharif be qasoor". To gain public sympathy and emotionally blackmail them by attaching shaheed BB here. Still when their corruption is clear as day.

Such a hypocrite, if needed be they'll take one slogan from the East and another from the West. For example;

"mard e momin mard e haq Nawaz Sharif Nawaz Sharif"

OR

"Jab tak sooraj chand rahega Nawaz Sharif tera naam rahega". As evident now.

But very importantly, they took a slogan from PPP and CM Sanaullah Zehri hinted it in N League workers convention. That is:

"Chaaron soobon ki zanjeer Nawaz Shareer Nawaz Shareer"

Nawaz Sharif has been appearing more fresh, energetic and confident in every next speech. So what is the plan?

As the squeeze gets tight and Nawaz Sharif sees that his property is about to sink and he is about to drown, he would raise flag of rebellion. Not just he, it would be a triplet rebellion; Nawaz in Punjab, PM AjK there and CM Baluchistan in his province. It would be less on ground and more on media. Creating a media hype it would literally break Pakistan in front of international world and presenting it as a volatile country. Nawaz Sharif is currently on motto of 'hum to doobay hein sanam...

Their sitting minister is saying that if Pakistan is banana republic, it is actually soft rebellion. They're continuously targeting accountability process to take circumstances to their desired point.

Whatever 'constituency' Nawaz Sharif has formed, and all other corrupt should be stood in front of firing squad. IBOs should be started against the corrupt. Not to control this League but general way forward.
 
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@Realistic Change nicely summed up and explained the "effects" part but jury is still out on "causes" and most significantly, as per our discussion, merits or demerits of " PTI policy" as you put it or "PTI inaction after the DQ verdict".

Why it was so important to "appear" un-aligned then or What difference appearing un-aligned made on the course of events after the DQ verdict? Zilch!

I am clearly of the opinion that it was not due to anything done by PTI since the verdict (as it did nothing much to begin with), as 'waiting and watching" is not a policy but failure, apprehension and reluctance to come up with any in the first place and and and you also say the same that it was only PMLN's own blunders that amplified and signified its deteriorating state. What strategy is this of PTI that basis itself entire on PMLN making mistakes and aims to capitalize on it later when they are out of options anyway and due to inevitability? (it can be called typical reactionary or conventional laid back politics at best but nothing much else).

What if they had'nt made those mistakes that they went on to make?

Let me tell you the perception of a vacationing PTI otherwise mucking about on tv screens after verdict. The perception created in masses from the "lets create perception of - wait and see" policy of PTI after DQ verdict and PTI's overt inaction, was frustration on the verge of naked anger felt by common voters as well as PTI supporters.

Instead of increasing euphoria and sense of achievement, PTI left its well wishers wondering why it has taken the back bench instead of taking the lead and pushing back PMLN narrative on the defensive instead of letting PMLN get away with creating incitement among PMLN supporters. Thank God that their opponents were and are PMLN self-centred and self serving goons and die hard voters who knew and still know no better than to just give the impression of following their proverbial pide piper to his ultimate political demise.

I am not going to write and repeat the choices available to PTI on political front to stay actively involved and play the leading role on the streets and challenge PMLN without creating violance or mayhem but actual political presence on the streets to standup to PMLNs propaganda and counter their false narrative on equal footing instead of vacating political and most significantly, legal space to PMLN while being contend with appearances in prime time news shows.

There is no dispute anywhere that: The momentum after the verdict was with PTI. Full stop.

...and PTI went on to simply let it fade away by its legal and political inaction after the verdict ala waiting and watching.

If the frustrated PTI supporters get back up again in support of PTI against status quo, (as we shall in sha Allah, ) due to awareness of IK's struggle and dedication, it shall be despite PTI's blunders and not due to its policy of wait and watch like philosophers instead of striving like political workers who create political space for themselves.

I am sure and there is no doubt that right now IK is a subdued fighter and actually belongs to the later group and shall prevail. Struggle finds no stranger in Imran Khan.

I don't feel particularly thrilled to have opined against you but the contrary. Still, it is my honest opinion that after the DQ verdict, it was wrong to wait and watch on political front and an even bigger mistake to wait and watch on legal front, specially not going for a review and keep waiting for over a month after 7 day limit to reopen Hudaibya case expired. The subsequent inaction is all the same.

So after explaining my pov, let me sum up some of my recent posts. We have the same PMLN govt., Leader of Opp, their chosen NAB head, ECP/Presiding Officers/ ROs - essentially what status quo requires - and we can add to it the worst cartoonish New Election laws (thanx to equal responsibility of SCP, Estab and PTI to concede political and legal space to PMLN) and further add to it the upcoming care taker setup to be chosen by PPP and PMLN and so I find myself asking the following :

1) Do we have a better scenario with each passing day (and amendments in laws) for the up coming elections than we had after the DQ verdict?

2) Was it wise to let PMLN enjoy all the vacant political and legal space to change laws, plan and make its moves or or or was it better to play aggressively and to make deals across the board to win support of dissenting sure shot electables against PMLN govt and timely turn the tables.

3) Do you see a hung parliament or two thirds majority of PTI keeping in mind the points above in RED doing everything against PTI in their considerable power, capacity and authority?

4) Do you see some quarters finding themselves into reluctantly playing an active role to establish a worthy Govt. after elections or do you still see them play it neutral and let the country slide into further turmoil due to a new but inept or weak or same old corrupt govt.?

5) Is it better to play neutral now by some quarters and end up getting even more entangled later on, in a much worst economic and political scenario or let the winds of change blow full throttle and let the birds of a feather flock together to timely undo the damage?

6) Or will it be business as usual till we stumble and fall into the pit we are busy digging for ourselves and then we decide to do the needful collectively as hinted above?

The outlook is looking contrary to the best case scenario as every stake holder seems set to believe their own reality rather than the writing on the wall.
 
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Shane said:
@Realistic Change nicely summed up and explained the "effects" part but jury is still out on "causes" and most significantly, as per our discussion, merits or demerits of " PTI policy" as you put it or "PTI inaction after the DQ verdict".

Why it was so important to "appear" un-aligned then or What difference appearing un-aligned made on the course of events after the DQ verdict? Zilch!

I am clearly of the opinion that it was not due to anything done by PTI since the verdict (as it did nothing much to begin with), as 'waiting and watching" is not a policy but failure, apprehension and reluctance to come up with any in the first place and and and you also say the same that it was only PMLN's own blunders that amplified and signified its deteriorating state. What strategy is this of PTI that basis itself entire on PMLN making mistakes and aims to capitalize on it later when they are out of options anyway and due to inevitability? (it can be called typical reactionary or conventional laid back politics at best but nothing much else).

What if they had'nt made those mistakes that they went on to make?

Let me tell you the perception of a vacationing PTI otherwise mucking about on tv screens after verdict. The perception created in masses from the "lets create perception of - wait and see" policy of PTI after DQ verdict and PTI's overt inaction, was frustration on the verge of naked anger felt by common voters as well as PTI supporters.

Instead of increasing euphoria and sense of achievement, PTI left its well wishers wondering why it has taken the back bench instead of taking the lead and pushing back PMLN narrative on the defensive instead of letting PMLN get away with creating incitement among PMLN supporters. Thank God that their opponents were and are PMLN self-centred and self serving goons and die hard voters who knew and still know no better than to just give the impression of following their proverbial pide piper to his ultimate political demise.

I am not going to write and repeat the choices available to PTI on political front to stay actively involved and play the leading role on the streets and challenge PMLN without creating violance or mayhem but actual political presence on the streets to standup to PMLNs propaganda and counter their false narrative on equal footing instead of vacating political and most significantly, legal space to PMLN while being contend with appearances in prime time news shows.

There is no dispute anywhere that: The momentum after the verdict was with PTI. Full stop.

...and PTI went on to simply let it fade away by its legal and political inaction after the verdict ala waiting and watching.

If the frustrated PTI supporters get back up again in support of PTI against status quo, (as we shall in sha Allah, ) due to awareness of IK's struggle and dedication, it shall be despite PTI's blunders and not due to its policy of wait and watch like philosophers instead of striving like political workers who create political space for themselves.

I am sure and there is no doubt that right now IK is a subdued fighter and actually belongs to the later group and shall prevail. Struggle finds no stranger in Imran Khan.

I don't feel particularly thrilled to have opined against you but the contrary. Still, it is my honest opinion that after the DQ verdict, it was wrong to wait and watch on political front and an even bigger mistake to wait and watch on legal front, specially not going for a review and keep waiting for over a month after 7 day limit to reopen Hudaibya case expired. The subsequent inaction is all the same.

So after explaining my pov, let me sum up some of my recent posts. We have the same PMLN govt., Leader of Opp, their chosen NAB head, ECP/Presiding Officers/ ROs - essentially what status quo requires - and we can add to it the worst cartoonish New Election laws (thanx to equal responsibility of SCP, Estab and PTI to concede political and legal space to PMLN) and further add to it the upcoming care taker setup to be chosen by PPP and PMLN and so I find myself asking the following :

1) Do we have a better scenario with each passing day (and amendments in laws) for the up coming elections than we had after the DQ verdict?

2) Was it wise to let PMLN enjoy all the vacant political and legal space to change laws, plan and make its moves or or or was it better to play aggressively and to make deals across the board to win support of dissenting sure shot electables against PMLN govt and timely turn the tables.

3) Do you see a hung parliament or two thirds majority of PTI keeping in mind the points above in RED doing everything against PTI in their considerable power, capacity and authority?

4) Do you see some quarters finding themselves into reluctantly playing an active role to establish a worthy Govt. after elections or do you still see them play it neutral and let the country slide into further turmoil due to a new but inept or weak or same old corrupt govt.?

5) Is it better to play neutral now by some quarters and end up getting even more entangled later on, in a much worst economic and political scenario or let the winds of change blow full throttle and let the birds of a feather flock together to timely undo the damage?

6) Or will it be business as usual till we stumble and fall into the pit we are busy digging for ourselves and then we decide to do the needful collectively as hinted above?

The outlook is looking contrary to the best case scenario as every stake holder seems set to believe their own reality rather than the writing on the wall.
Click to expand...

Already responded (in above and previous posts) both; as direct as possible and also between the lines!
 
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Guvera said:
Gud strategy in the current scenario, just want to add few things which u cud pick up and raise in the party meetings, i strongly feel PTI must form a Think Tank which features the sane heads like Asad Umar, Ch. Sarwar, Jehangir Tarin, Shireen Mazari and other few visionary individual including IK himself and they must come up with the future planning and strategy for the country.... like how to take pakistan forward, what measures has to be taken in order to bring back economy on track, how to create more jobs for the educated youth, how to improve the health and education infrastructure across Pakistan, how to improve the law and order situation, how to improve the overall infrastructure of the country and so on. Compile a line of action for country which must be done in next five years or so and present it to the media and entire world, this is how you cud impress and bring international as well as local "Powers" into confidence, this can bring them hope and they wud start believing that "yes PTI and IK cud deliver for sure"
Click to expand...


Shireen Mazari and Naeem-ul Haq don't come under sane heads mate, but i agree with you that they should have Think Tanks (TTs). i reckon having think tanks for each ministry. These people would be the best to lead the TTs in my opinion.

Finance / Industries / Economy = Asad Umer
Agriculture = Jehangir Tareen
Foreign Affairs = Shah Mehmood Qurashi
Law & Justice = Waleed Iqbal / Naeem Bukhari

etc etc
 
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Imad.Khan said:
Shireen Mazari and Naeem-ul Haq don't come under sane heads mate, but i agree with you that they should have Think Tanks (TTs). i reckon having think tanks for each ministry. These people would be the best to lead the TTs in my opinion.

Finance / Industries / Economy = Asad Umer
Agriculture = Jehangir Tareen
Foreign Affairs = Shah Mehmood Qurashi
Law & Justice = Waleed Iqbal / Naeem Bukhari

etc etc
Click to expand...
Information minister: Faziulhassan Chohan :D
 
Last edited:
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So accountability court issues orders preventing politically aligned individuals from entering the court tomorrow.
 
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Strike! said:
So accountability court issues orders preventing politically aligned individuals from entering the court tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Court mein to jana mushkil hy par mein G-11 ja raha hoan dekhain gay kiya tamasga lagta hy :D

Strike! said:
So accountability court issues orders preventing politically aligned individuals from entering the court tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Court mein to jana mushkil hy par mein G-11 ja raha hoan dekhain gay kiya tamasga lagta hy :D
 
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