Palestinians prepare for 'Great Return' March in West Bank and Gaza: Main thread

[Jungibaaz]

Gunning down protesters sounds like a novel idea, but it's not that surprising when you mention Israel (sadly). I am utterly baffled as to how Israelis can look on at the behaviour of their state and not demand immediate change. On one hand there's a hasbara campaign (it's not a conspiracy theory, mostly just PR) to push back against negative portrayal of Israel. There are many attempts to give the Israeli perspective on matters and all diplomatic victories, for Israel it seems, are hard fought.

Talking to Israelis and their supporters in Britain, I noticed strange beliefs among them. First of all, I know and understand why people are sensitive about Israel, and even some of those in the diaspora feel the need to defend it. However, when talking to them, I felt that there was a sense of siege among them. Everyone is out to get Israel it seems, the Palestinians according to them either don't exist or are violent terrorists or both, it seems to them Palestinians have zero credibility, in death too no credibility. Even if they've just seen footage of a few being gunned down, knowing nothing else they'll stretch to their utmost intellectual ability to reach for a justification as to how the protesters were actually terrorists, or the vids were fake etc. When mentioning the UN, they'll say absurd things about the UN being anti-Israel, critics of Israel are in some part anti-semitic and so on. If you really care that much about Israel, take a step back and evaluate the absurdity of some of what Israel does and how it is then justified.

I don't care if Israelis and their supporters say they don't care about outside perception. The truth is, they do care (at least the smart ones among them), and they should care. But what good is all that effort if Israel continues as it has done and as outside pressure mounts?

We're Muslims, some of Middle Easterners on this forum too and so we do probably have a bias towards the Palestinian perspective, as well as sympathy for their cause. But even to neutral onlookers now, here in the West and elsewhere, Israel's actions have become completely indefensible. If things continue I expect Israel's political image to become even more deeply unpopular in most of Europe.

If I were Israeli or a supporter of Israel, even if for purely selfish reasons, I would care quite a lot about the way Israel behaves and the effect this has on world opinion. I would be fully aware that shifts in opinion would be damaging to my state, and no amount of counter-narrative can convince someone to disregard what they already believe to be true. Israel isn't doing itself any favours, beyond being able to lobby any level of support from the US, it seems Israel's leaderless are tactless and lack basic common sense in diplomacy.

 

[Solomon2]

Palestinians Stockpiling Tires For Planned March of Return Shenanigans
By
Aussie Dave
-
April 5, 2018

The Daily Mail reports on the palestinians latest exercise in wastefulness.

Palestinians are stockpiling thousands of tires to burn at the Gaza border on Friday in a bid to blur the vision of Israeli soldiers with smoke and flames.

Young Palestinians have been gathering tyres and carting them near the border to burn and create a smokescreen to make it harder for Israeli snipers.

Some have been walking the streets collecting money to buy tyres.

Coming soon: the Zionists gave us cancer because they made us want to burn tyres, the fumes of which got into our lungs.

Also seems like a colossal waste of money, especially for those crying out poverty. Although I suspect they have it covered.

Hamas announced on Thursday it would pay $3,000 to the family of anyone killed in the protests, $500 to Palestinians critically wounded and $200 to those who sustain more minor injuries.​

...even to neutral onlookers now, here in the West and elsewhere, Israel's actions have become completely indefensible...

Who are these "neutral onlookers", exactly? And what makes them "neutral"?

I think that many people, many politicians, know the real issue: Israel's actions are not only defensible but praiseworthy - except for the fact that Israel is the state of the Jews. Therefore the truth has to be distorted to accommodate the Israel-haters who might otherwise commit terrorism, hijack planes, assassinate ministers, withdraw investments, go on strike, etc. Dolce vita is more valued than justice; the mere appearance of justice suffices. Appeasement is so much easier and besides who nowadays believes in a G-d that cares about truth and justice?

 

[Jungibaaz]

Who are these "neutral onlookers", exactly? And what makes them "neutral"?

By neutral, I could mean for instance the public here in the UK or Europe at large, they do in turn influence the stance of their respective states. They're not inclined to much about another conflict in the Middle East, it does not matter to them whether or not a Palestinian or Israeli state exists or what its borders look like. You can nitpick over what you'd like to call the group of people whom I'm describing, it's becoming very hard to justify Israeli policy to this group.

I think that many people, many politicians, know the real issue: Israel's actions are not only defensible but praiseworthy

Sure, keep telling yourself that.

If enough Israeli policy makers think this way, it might just build enough pressure to force Israel to change its ways.

 

[Cthulhu]

By neutral, I could mean for instance the public here in the UK or Europe at large, they do in turn influence the stance of their respective states. They're not inclined to much about another conflict in the Middle East, it does not matter to them whether or not a Palestinian or Israeli state exists or what its borders look like. You can nitpick over what you'd like to call the group of people whom I'm describing, it's becoming very hard to justify Israeli policy to this group.



Sure, keep telling yourself that.

If enough Israeli policy makers think this way, it might just build enough pressure to force Israel to change its ways.

Ain't these Israeli a-holes something?

 

[Gomig-21]

Cenk is right of course. What he's advocating they do is pretty suicidal, though. Even if they don't throw rocks or burn tires, in order to "peacefully" walk across the border will require some form of violent vandalism which we know will result in more murders.

His frustration is indicative of the tough situation these people are in.

 

[Falcon29]

3 شهداء و780 اصابة .. اطارات غزة تتفوق على الاحتلال

3 killed, 780 injured in demonstrations on Gaza's border

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http://www.maannews.net/Content.aspx?id=945196

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Cenk is right of course. What he's advocating they do is pretty suicidal, though. Even if they don't throw rocks or burn tires, in order to "peacefully" walk across the border will require some form of violent vandalism which we know will result in more murders.

His frustration is indicative of the tough situation these people are in.

It's a risk indeed, I don't see them allowing even a symbolic walk along the border. If these demonstrations and similar ones in the West Bank take place for months on ends, I think it will encourage international community to speed up the peace process and make a deadline for when a two state solution should be reached. If US administration doesn't pander to Israel's excessive demands, there is serious opportunity to end this conflict. Hamas would have to agree if a two state solution on 1967 borders was reached. I believe Yahya Sinwar, the current head of Hamas will agree to that. He is a pragmatic individual and he is the one trying to make sure demonstrations are peaceful. He's also preventing the armed groups from getting involved.

It's good that he is being realistic but also isn't passive like Abbas, one way or another this cause needs attention and peace process has to begin this summer at latest.

 

[Gomig-21]

It's good that he is being realistic but also isn't passive like Abbas, one way or another this cause needs attention and peace process has to begin this summer at latest.

Even though the turnout was much less yesterday, they still lost lives didn't they? I think NPR said 5 or 7 were murdered and hundreds others were wounded, and this is American Public Broadcast not an Arabic source. They also said the Israelis claim the turnout was less because of the way they handled the murdering on the first day. That didn't sit well.

It's a risk indeed, I don't see them allowing even a symbolic walk along the border. If these demonstrations and similar ones in the West Bank take place for months on ends, I think it will encourage international community to speed up the peace process and make a deadline for when a two state solution should be reached. If US administration doesn't pander to Israel's excessive demands, there is serious opportunity to end this conflict. Hamas would have to agree if a two state solution on 1967 borders was reached. I believe Yahya Sinwar, the current head of Hamas will agree to that. He is a pragmatic individual and he is the one trying to make sure demonstrations are peaceful. He's also preventing the armed groups from getting involved.

When Netanyahu is occasionally pressed by reporters or the media as to whether he actually supports or would consider a peace plan that would result in a 2-state solution, he always emphasizes the security issue and that there is no way he would even go down that road if Israel wouldn't have sole responsibility for security. What that means is that basically the Palestinians cannot have any type of military of their own and essentially have 0 sovereignty. That's obviously a huge sticking point and will never -- and should never -- be acceptable. But putting that aside, the biggest problem to get past in the first place -- besides agreeing to just a sit down! -- is the 1967 borders. The Israelis are milking the process because the longer this goes on, the more settlements are built and the further those borders get buried in the process, making that major point of contention to a two-state solution untenable.

So you have these primary hurdles to get past prior to any talks:

1) Agree to a sit-down. That alone comes with so many conditions from the Israelis they make it almost impossible for it to happen, as we witnessed with the Egyptian brokered Hamas/Fatah reconciliation. The Israelis need to accept the representatives of the Palestinian delegation.

2) 1967 borders. Even going into a sit-down, there needs to be some sort of general understanding of a basic outline of those borders that conform to anything that resembles pre-1967 lines. 1967 borders delineated Gaza of course, but it also separated the West Bank AND Jerusalem entirely from Israeli control. Granted, many Jews lived in the WB during Jordanian rule and of course we (as Arabs) understand that Jerusalem has a substantial Jewish connection and entitlement and that they should be part of any agreement, but there needs to be a basic outline that is pre-established prior to talks in order to make them productive.

3) Settlements. Same thing. Pre-sit-down there needs to be some basic idea (even if it is vague) that either the current settlements stay and an there is an immediate cessation of any further developments until an agreement is reached. This is very important for Palestinians for obvious reasons and then during the talks, they can decide to allocate equal shares of settlements on both sides which will bring in the next point.

4) Sovereignty. If the Israeli settlements remain in Palestinian lands (which would be the case if there is anything remotely close to a 1967 outline of borders,) then the Palestinians would get equal share in Israel proper and not somewhere in the Negev next to the radiation of Damona, but in the Jerusalem/Israeli areas near the WB. This is only fair and obvious. This also brings us to the next point.

5) Security. If the Israelis will insist on having full control of security, then there will never be an agreement and there shouldn't be one. Palestinians cannot have sovereignty without having their own military and security apparatus. They can agree on a certain level of security so as to not threaten Israel or Israeli citizens and there can be clauses in the treaty that include the revocation of that security if it turns into anything that threatens Israel. But there can't be any agreement for Palestinians without them having some semblance of a force that can protect themselves, even if it's at a measly level. There is a lot of symbolism that would come with that which is very important for self respect as an independent nation.

6) All other issues: These can be discussed during the talks which would include maritime and navigational rights of movement, airspace and airports, industrialization and partnerships with Israel on many fronts that are already intertwined. Dual citizenship, work visas, interrelations etc.

But points 1-5 have to be agreed to on a basic level prior to any sit-downs by emissaries from both parties. The US or any other Arab party shouldn't even be involved at this point but can be kept informed. Once they get past those huge obstacles, then serious talks can begin and outside parties can get involved but until then, any talks will be completely useless.

 

[Falcon29]

Palestinian journalist in vest marked ‘PRESS’ shot dead by Israeli troops in Gaza

GAZA CITY — Two Palestinians succumbed early Saturday to injuries sustained in a protest on the border fence with Israel a day earlier, including a journalist shot by Israeli forces despite apparently wearing a vest that clearly marked him as press.

Video and photos of Yasser Murtaja, 31, being treated after sustaining a bullet wound to the lower abdomen, including one shot by Agence France-Presse news agency, show him wearing a blue and white protective jacket with “PRESS” emblazoned on the front.

Murtaja, who worked for a Gaza-based news agency called Ain Media, was one of six Palestinian journalists shot, according to the Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate, which said they were all clearly identifiable as media. The Israeli military has maintained that the shooting into the border crowds is carefully targeted. It could not immediately provide a comment on how six journalists could have been shot.

“He was kind, gentle, and caring, eager to become the best journalist he could be, because his aim was always to document the Palestinian people's suffering,” said Rori Donaghy, a Middle East consultant and former news editor at the Middle East Eye website, who spent time with Murtaja in Gaza. “It's really sad.”

The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza said a total of 491 Palestinians suffered gunshot wounds on Friday, as tens of thousands of demonstrators gathered at the border for the “Friday of Tires,” burning stacks of tires in an attempt to shield themselves from Israeli snipers during protests.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...9fe3c675a89_story.html?utm_term=.d2247648c270

 

[Gomig-21]

I saw the pictures of them this morning, probably too graphic to post since there's quite a bit of blood and that's really too bad. What's up with that? Even the press gets beat up by the Israelis? I suppose they're lucky they didn't get killed, considering their cameras can be considered deadly weapons, of the media.

 

[Falcon29]

I saw the pictures of them this morning, probably too graphic to post since there's quite a bit of blood and that's really too bad. What's up with that? Even the press gets beat up by the Israelis? I suppose they're lucky they didn't get killed, considering their cameras can be considered deadly weapons, of the media.

They may have been shooting at crowd and accidentally hit Press. Sometimes they do target press that they consider are 'encouraging' demonstrations. One of them was killed actually, he belonged to a Palestinian media organization.

 

[Falcon29]

Commeration for killed journalist:

 

[Solomon2]

The Gaza Clashes: What’s Really Happening
BY DANIEL POMERANTZ APRIL 9, 2018

Palestinian protestors burn tires during clashes with Israeli security forces on the Gaza Israeli border east of Khan Yunis, in the southern Gaza Strip on April 6, 2018. Photo by Abed Rahim Khatib/ Flash90

Since March 30, there have been intermittent protests, riots, and even armed attacks at the Gaza border.

Much of the media coverage has been so poorly informed or even outright misleading, that it can be almost impossible to understand what’s really happening. Israel has, in many cases, been made out to be a violent aggressor intentionally killing peaceful protesters.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

That’s why HonestReporting will be actively monitoring, analyzing and communicating throughout these events.

Here, for your use and information, is what we’ve seen so far:

Re-cap of events

• On April 1, we posted this explanation and analysis of the events up to that date. It was immediately clear that the “protests” also included molotov cocktails, burning tires, rock throwing, and in one case even live gunfire at the IDF. There were ongoing attempts by rioters to breach the border fence and enter Israel.
• Of the 30,000 Palestinians present, 16 were reportedly killed by IDF sniper fire. The figure later increased to 19.
• It was well known since April 1 that at least ten of the casualties had clear affiliations to terror groups, including Hamas. An analysis of open-source information from Palestinian media brought that number up to 15, and HonestReporting was the first to publish that new information on April 5.
• Another protest/riot on April 6 brought 20,000 people and new violence: including the burning of what may have been 10,000 tires, and further attempts to both attack IDF soldiers and to infiltrate Israel under the resulting smokescreen. Meanwhile, and this is not a joke, Hamas is now blaming Israel for what it claims is a “shortage” of tires in Gaza. Seriously. You couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried.
• 
  
  
• A number of Palestinians criticized Hamas for publicizing the deaths of its members, including holding military funerals and rallies. The main objection can be summarized as follows: by revealing that so many of the deaths were actually terrorists, Hamas undermines the PR illusion that this was a “peaceful protest.”
• As of yesterday morning, Haaretz put the total number of Palestinian casualties at 29, while a slightly later AP story puts the number at 32. One casualty was Palestinian photojournalist Yaser Murtaja. Though the not all the facts are known yet, this story is making some strong waves in the press. The IDF says it is investigating and that it does not deliberately target journalists. Most of the information known so far is from the Hamas controlled Gaza Ministry of Health or from Hamas itself.

International investigations?

Fatou Bensauda, CC by Max Koot Studio
In the meantime, numerous international parties, including UN Secretary General António Guterres and EU chief Federica Mogherini have begun calling for an international investigation into the actions of the IDF. Whether Israel adequately investigates itself, and whether the allegations have sufficient gravity are likely to be the key issues in determining whether the International Criminal Court (ICC) prosecutes a case.

If the ICC does prosecute a case, Israel is not the only party under the microscope: Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Fatou Bensouda has noted that Hamas or other Palestinian bodies could be subject to investigations related to war crimes for their use of civilians in covering violent activities.

The UN and EU, on the other hand, are primarily political bodies and can choose to launch their own investigations merely if their members wish to: without any regard to standards of international law.

When the dust settles and the burning-tire-smoke clears, international investigations will likely be the big remaining question.

In the meantime, the IDF has already appointed Brig. Gen. Moti Baruch, head of the General Staff’s Doctrine and Training Division to lead the IDF’s own investigation.

The latest updates
Some of the critical facts and images from Friday’s flare-up have made the mainstream news, yet some of the most informative have remained conspicuously absent.

Take, for example, this image round-up by Israellycool’s Aussie Dave: including telling, often dramatic pictures of events, some of which have not been published by any international news source.

Another telling scene was captured in this photo of a swastika flying alongside Palestinian flags, with tire-smoke all around:

View image on Twitter


LTC (R) Peter Lerner

✔@LTCPeterLerner
Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organization. Seen today in #GazaReturnMarch.

11:39 AM - Apr 6, 2018​

A few nay-sayers on Twitter tried to claim the image was photo-shopped, until they came face to face with this video of the same:

Video Player

00:00
00:05
And speaking of tire-smoke: in this particularly shameless tweet, the Palestine diplomatic office in the US preposterously claims that Hamas’s own tire-fire is actually an Israeli nerve agent.

View image on Twitter


Palestine in the US

✔@PalestineUSA
Reports from on the ground in #Gaza say that Israeli forces are shooting a type of nerve agent gas that isn’t tear gas.

9:41 AM - Apr 6, 2018

Here is some additional video of tires and fires throughout the area.

Next time you hear about Palestinians throwing “stones,” keep in mind that in at least some cases, this is what they are really talking about:



Israel Breaking@IsraelBreaking
https://twitter.com/IsraelBreaking/status/982142636881428481

Palestinians build large slingshot to throw objects at Israeli forces on the Israel-Gaza border today. The "rallies" today will not be peaceful, despite the many headlines which will claim so.

2:27 AM - Apr 6, 2018

Just outside Gaza, JPost’s Seth Frantzman caught up with Richard Kemp, former commander, British forces, Afghanistan. Kemp took the media to task pointing out that they don’t necessarily fully understand events even if they’re physically close up. Specifically, Kemp clarified that this is not a “peaceful demonstration” as is often portrayed by the media but rather:

…a deliberate and specific intent by a major terrorist organization, recognized around the world as terrorists, to penetrate the border of the State of Israel.​

Arab world reacts
Though reactions are mixed, at least some residents of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan and other Arab countries, took to social media to lambaste Hamas for its exploitation of the inhabitants of Gaza. Meanwhile, despite a show of support at the official level, it seems Palestinians in the West Bank were largely apathetic to the events in Gaza. Notably, top Palestinian Authority cleric Mahmoud al-Habbash declared:

[Hamas is] sending Gazans to their deaths for good headlines… [is] trading in suffering and blood [and] no longer fools Palestinian people.​

And though it’s not in the Arab world, as long as we’re talking reactions we should give credit where it’s due: Reuters was one of the few publications to ask Israelis living near Gaza what they think. Here’s one example:

“I’m sorry about what is happening there. I know the situation is very, very difficult,” Israeli farmer Daniel Rahamim said about economic hardship in Gaza, the Palestinian enclave ruled by Hamas, an Islamist group that advocates Israel’s destruction.

“But I don’t talk about a peace deal anymore. Maybe we can achieve a long-term ceasefire,” Rahimim, 63, said as he irrigated his crops. He said his 24-year-old daughter, still “traumatized by rockets” left the area after the demonstrations started.​

Finally, if there was any doubt about the real point of these protests and riots, Hamas leader Yehya Al-Sinwar was crystal clear:

As these events unfold, HonestReporting will continue to monitor, analyze and hold the media to account.

Watch this space.

 

[Solomon2]

That march is not Hamas generated, don’t give them more credit Thant they deserve..

Good catch, I might have forgotten otherwise:

The Gaza “Return March” Splits Hamas and Organizers
Pinhas Inbari
9
Apr
2018

Gaza violence at the border with Israel (Arab press)
​

The events at Israel’s border with Gaza reflect a deep division between some of the NGO organizers of the Return March, led by Ahmed Abu Artima, and Hamas. Abu Artima, described by the British Guardian as a 34-year-old “activist and journalist,” opposed Hamas’ plan to hold a “Friday of Tires” on April 6, 2018. His followers on the March’s Facebook page suggested throwing flowers instead of burning tires.

Ahmed Abu Artima​

Abu Artima, who works with European NGOs (non-government organizations), explained that the purpose of the gathering on the border was to prepare for the big march on Nakba Day in May and not to break through the fence at this point. Using force, he explained, would give legitimacy to the “occupation” to apply even greater force, while it would have no violent response to a mass march of refugees, including young people, the elderly, and babies. The main condition for the march would be that all of the marchers would refrain from any violence at all, including throwing stones, tires, Molotov cocktails, or the like.

Abu Artima distanced himself from the Hamas point of view when he referred to the shahids (martyrs) as “having died for nothing” and claimed that to achieve success in the national struggle, it was not necessary to sacrifice any martyrs at all. If anything, the opposite would be the case.

From reactions to Abu Artima’s statements, Hamas has accused him of betrayal, and Abu Artima’s supporters say that even though they primarily support his claims, it is forbidden to deny the importance of the shahids. Abu Artima responded that he would not be deterred by accusations of “traitor.”

While on the first Friday, March 30, 2018, Hamas remained silent until the very last moment and only got involved when the people had already gathered, Hamas took responsibility for last Friday’s events right from the beginning. The smell of smoke from the tires chased away Abu Artima’s men from the assembled gatherings, and it is possible that this was the intention of Hamas, along with its desire to cause trouble to Israel.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh at the funeral of a Palestinian photographer killed in Gaza on April 6, 2018 (Arab press)​

On the “Friday of Tires,” Hamas leaders joined the border protesters, but none of them spoke about the right of return or even mentioned the refugees – the objective of the whole event from the outset. Yahya Sinwar, for example, said that Gaza revealed to the world that the situation in the Gaza Strip could no longer continue. In other words, Hamas is seeking immediate aid and the opening of the crossings. The issue of “return” can wait.

@Falcon29

 

[The SC]

609 Palestinians were arrested, including 95 children and 13 women

https://www.okaz.com.sa/السياسة

 

[Solomon2]

609 Palestinians were arrested, including 95 children and 13 women

https://www.okaz.com.sa/السياسة

That pic is from 2011 at least: link. Another recycling of old anti-Israel propaganda in an attempt to sustain current slanders and hatred against the Jewish State.