Pakistan's War - Documentaries

[S-2]

"i personally liked 'ain't no sunshine'."

Cool. Bill Withers. From back in my day.

"I think there was something in the air about US helping train/equip FC...was something started on these lines?"

Train the trainers. F.C. officers and SOG, I believe. It's going on now at your SOG base. We'll see. I really prefer partnerships and where our combat units have established semi-permanent training/mentoring relationships with Iraqi or Afghan army units, we see quick improvement. Some of it's competitive but there's a definite momentum towards soldiering.

At some point, you have to swim on your own so it's perhaps better this way and is the only way permissable for the present. Maybe that'll change in time.

"The militants are not only well versed with the terrain but are excellent veteran fighters and well armed, rather too well armed."

Not necessarily. We've met all types throughout the nation. Some areas show fighters of greater commitment and skill than others. Kunar is a rough one. Lots of arabs, chechans, and uzbeks. Heavy infantry weapons- mortars, recoiless rifles, rockets, heavy machine guns. The COPs are sniped, mortared and rocketed a lot. It's dangerous there 24/7.

We might see substantive change in Kunar's local culture in, oh...fifty years- if we really work and devote ourselves to the task. I personally think that our guys don't take that mission there quite as seriously as even in neighboring provinces. To that end, the COPs have less to do in Kunar with establishing bonds than surveillance on infiltration routes and occasional cover out of the fire in a hostile locale.

"The numerous Indian consulates and staff in Afghanistan do not make the situation better..."

They've four and a bombed-out embassy unless you know something that I don't there- Mazur-I-Sharif, Herat, Kandahar, and Jalalabad. Only two are near the Pakistani border. Of that, only one truly near the Baluchi border. Their presence isn't illegal nor has a case been made that they've great numbers of personnel engaged in nefarious doings.

I'm unaware of a similar number of Pakistani consulates and would assume that's a prime interest of your government to hold a presence in Afghanistan. Is that the actual case?

India will certainly hold a presence in Afghanistan. They've good relations with one another. Perhaps when enough Pashtus register for afghani elections that might change. Until then, I'd encourage the Pakistani gov't to do all it could to establish a VISIBLE counter-vailing presence in Afghanistan.

Doing so without the traditional below-the-radar assistance of the ISI would be a wonderful thing for everybody concerned.

"What more can a country expect from her sons in uniform?"

I recall the incident well. Your soldiers are of the finest material and are clearly devoted to their nation. Now if their nation, government, and military leaders would only return the favor and focus on the fight at hand in the west.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I wouln't wish to go further here.

Thanks for the explanation, completely understand the need for staying away from specificities - was pretty much what I was looking for, and coincidentally in the context of the Fort assault (and other incidents) that All Green mentioned in his post, where rapid support was not forthcmoing on the Pakistani side.

 

[Patriot]

Well, It's OUR War.These people are willing to hurt Pakistan and in my opinion America is not breaking our sovereignty becuase many people cross border and go into Afghanistan..and kill American Troops..If we can't cover our borders then America can hit within FATA and also the people who are killed by drones would have attacked PA anyway so it's all good...American Media should really apperciate Pakistan efforts.On the other hand, America should also make sure Pakistan national interests in Afghanistan are secure (Remove Indian Consulates which are near Pakistani Border) and add BLA on terrorist organization list.America should verify intel and share intel with ISI when sending drones to Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It shows the world that we created dirt within this country which we are cleaning up now.

Well, if the terrorists and extremists are Pakistani, then we did indeed create dirt (though it could be argued that others had a role indirectly as well), and we are all now cleaning up what we created.

I think we should be proud of the fact that the Pakistani military is involved in getting rid of militants killing and threatening innocent civilians.

You say that we are killing our own civilians - wouldn't you agree that the dacoit or murderer killed in a police encounter is also the killing of a Pakistani citizen?

No one bats an eyelash over common criminals such as those when they are killed while committing crimes, so why so much sympathy for these militants who are committing far worse crimes against the state and against innocent civilians?

 

[RedBaron]

...
Being present with well-trained, respectful soldiers and eager to fight in the communities will gain local networks. It's proven time and again that if your guys will lay it on the line for the locals, help starts coming your way. But you gotta go there and prove it first and then stay to reap the rewards.

That takes troops. Imagine how many. Small enough to provide coverage to the people over a wide area. Large enough to survive an assault until help arrives. An uneasy balance which, btw, puts the stamp of the army on the neighborhood overwhelmingly so you'd better behave.
...

Acc to the wiki page on Pak Army structure Structure of the Pakistan Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , the only PA Corp actively involved in FATA operations is XI Corp based in Peshawar. XI Corp consists of 7th (Golden Arrows) and 9th Infantry divisions. I'm assuming 9th is not deployed.
The wiki page on 7th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Infantry_Division_(Pakistan)) indicates they are a crack division with battle honors, and that this elite division has been deployed in BOTH Waziristan and NWFP. They claim credit for capturing most AQ operatives as well...

So back-of-the-env estimates suggest maybe 15K troops in NWFP and Waziristan in addition to FC, assuming the entire 7th is deployed (which I doubt). This is probably not enough to hold territory after capturing it, otherwise they will end up in the whack-the-mole situation like the coalition forces in Afghanistan.

Also, the documentary showed the FC general giving a pep talk to 63 FC(?), so I'm assuming the chaps that the journo was traveling with are not PA troops, but FC with tank support from PA armor units? I'm a bit confused.

 

[S-2]

"I'm a bit confused."

Well don't ask a yank for clarification.

Seriously, I think there's 80,000 regulars up that way and that includes more than two divisions plus army troops in addition to whatever the F.C. brings to the party. That might be changing as we write if P.A. divisions are redeploying.

Seems somebody (Longwarjournal maybe) was reporting divisions numbered differently than what you indicated preparing to displace east.

There are population densities and other factors that differ between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Even Bajaur to Konar. You apply strategies to local conditions as a best fit solution. If the resources aren't there, it's on to the next idea.

The P.A. has an advantage with the F.C. and conducting an ink-blot concept in Pakistan. It's possible, with good regulars, to make the F.C. a net contributor of real value and rebuild their image.

Your troops will have to move into the communities and they'll need a ton of work. You can't imagine how much responsibility this imposes on Platoon leaders, sergeants and troops. Committed professionals because you're living, working, and FIGHTING amongst the citizens.

If you run, rape, or rob, it's all over.

 

[fatman17]

I recall the incident well. Your soldiers are of the finest material and are clearly devoted to their nation. Now if their nation, government, and military leaders would only return the favor and focus on the fight at hand in the west.

this is the only thing that is holding us back!!

 

[fatman17]

Acc to the wiki page on Pak Army structure Structure of the Pakistan Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , the only PA Corp actively involved in FATA operations is XI Corp based in Peshawar. XI Corp consists of 7th (Golden Arrows) and 9th Infantry divisions. I'm assuming 9th is not deployed.
The wiki page on 7th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Infantry_Division_(Pakistan)) indicates they are a crack division with battle honors, and that this elite division has been deployed in BOTH Waziristan and NWFP. They claim credit for capturing most AQ operatives as well...

So back-of-the-env estimates suggest maybe 15K troops in NWFP and Waziristan in addition to FC, assuming the entire 7th is deployed (which I doubt). This is probably not enough to hold territory after capturing it, otherwise they will end up in the whack-the-mole situation like the coalition forces in Afghanistan.

Also, the documentary showed the FC general giving a pep talk to 63 FC(?), so I'm assuming the chaps that the journo was traveling with are not PA troops, but FC with tank support from PA armor units? I'm a bit confused.

I wouldnt put too much emphasis on the wikipedia info. IMHO it is more wrong than right!. I personally know that mechanized elements of V Corps were also involved in the war on the western border until the mumbai crisis forced them back to the eastern border.

 

[RedBaron]

The P.A. has an advantage with the F.C. and conducting an ink-blot concept in Pakistan. It's possible, with good regulars, to make the F.C. a net contributor of real value and rebuild their image.

Your troops will have to move into the communities and they'll need a ton of work. You can't imagine how much responsibility this imposes on Platoon leaders, sergeants and troops. Committed professionals because you're living, working, and FIGHTING amongst the citizens.
If you run, rape, or rob, it's all over.

IMO the bulk of troops have got to be "native" to the tribal areas. Can't imagine the problems that may occur if Punjabi/Balochi/Sindhi/Kashmiri regiments are stationed in these remote areas for the long-haul. Even though the troops are professional, the tribals harbor an inherent distrust towards armed outsiders, and the fact that the army is Muslim does not necessarily mean the population would allow them to stay on indefinitely. FC (which apparently consists of 80K regulars recruited from tribal areas) will probably end up doing all the heavy lifting...

 

[S-2]

Welcome back, stud. Hope you behaved.

"I personally know that mechanized elements of V Corps were also involved in the war on the western border until the mumbai crisis forced them back to the eastern border."

Those may have been what I read about. They were further south, I believe. Near Tank maybe. They normally garrisoned near the Punjab border. There were at least two divisions mentioned.

They need to come back west. They're missed and XI Corps is lonely.

 

[S-2]

"IMO the bulk of troops have got to be "native" to the tribal areas. Can't imagine the problems that may occur if Punjabi/Balochi/Sindhi/Kashmiri regiments are stationed in these remote areas for the long-haul."

First off, so much for this universal Pakistani love for the army and each other. Heaven forbid that the Pashtus might have to be civil to a fellow citizen-soldier from elsewhere in Pakistan.

That nonsense might need to cease. Integrate the army. Keep the regiments but break up the regional affiliations. Time for the locals to acquaint themselves with the rest of their neighbors from around Pakistan.

Time for the locals to join the rest of mankind.

Break up the tribal areas. Abolish the tribal councils and impose the vote, citizenship and responsibilities of civics. Ban weapons. MAKE FATALAND PAKISTANI-NOT PASHTU.

Yeah, not tomorrow, but it's gotta happen that way or nothing will change for the better. You'll just be spinning your wheels.

 

[Kasrkin]

Also, the documentary showed the FC general giving a pep talk to 63 FC(?), so I'm assuming the chaps that the journo was traveling with are not PA troops, but FC with tank support from PA armor units? I'm a bit confused.

NO. That’s 63FF. Frontier Force. That's regular army. Actually I think you got it the other way round, from what I've heard these tanks have been decommission by the PA, and provided to FC (which is what happens to other equipment too like artillery guns, etc). So these are basically brigades from our Holding Corps. Pretty tenacious and unconventional fighting for formations primarily trained for defensive and holding purposes against large armored assaults, I must say…

 

[RedBaron]

...
That nonsense might need to cease. Integrate the army. Keep the regiments but break up the regional affiliations.

...

This is British-era legacy and is really a reflection of current-day regional divisions (or to put a positive spin on it, diversity) in the subcontinent.

In India, we have Sikh/Dogra/Deccan/Madras/Gurkha regiments and unless I'm mistaken, rural Sikh boys join Sikh regiments, and so on...A Gurkha "jawan" will probably not be entirely at home with a Sikh unit and vice-versa.

 

[fatman17]

IMO the bulk of troops have got to be "native" to the tribal areas. Can't imagine the problems that may occur if Punjabi/Balochi/Sindhi/Kashmiri regiments are stationed in these remote areas for the long-haul. Even though the troops are professional, the tribals harbor an inherent distrust towards armed outsiders, and the fact that the army is Muslim does not necessarily mean the population would allow them to stay on indefinitely. FC (which apparently consists of 80K regulars recruited from tribal areas) will probably end up doing all the heavy lifting...

The name of the regiment dosnt necessarily mean that only punjabis are in the punjab regt and so on. there is a "mix" of soldiers from different backgrounds with punjabis in majority in say the punjab regt and pushtuns in the Frontier Force regt. there are hardly any sindhis in the sind regiment and kashmiris in the AKRF (Azad Kashmir Regular Forces). the naming of the regiments along the lines of the 4 provinces is to give the PA a "national" out-look.thats all. traditionally 60% of the army is punjabis; 25% is pashtuns and the rest from baluchis, sindhis, mohajirs etc.

 

[Kasrkin]

with bombs which are supplied through Karachi port and transported through Pakistan to us military in afghanistan.

'Bombs' don’t go through the Karachi Port. Transit through Pakistan is only for non-lethal NATO supplies.