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Pakistan's War - Documentaries

Ohh thats very convenient, blaming us when you started the war and clearly failed to protect the boundries for possible fall out. It wasn't our war in 2002, you made it ours by allowing those militants to cross border. Thats my point.

Not to mention the fact that everyone knows those borders were unguarded, and have been for centuries. And according to Brian Cloughley the Americans failed to notified us, while conducting operations right across the border at Tora Bora...the forces we deployed there were off our own initiative, there was no coordination or cooperation primarily because the Americans didn’t bother with it at the time. The result was that the bulk of the scum was able to get through.
 
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I guess I'll say this- I wouldn't be counting on us to be the eyes and ears within your nation nor secure your borders for you. I can't imagine that you do or ever did so.

The sovereign responsibilities and consequences fall to you within your borders. Nobody else.

Your government chose to ignore the presence of the taliban on their soil then and functionally ignores the presence of PREDATOR now. The GoP's views of sovereignty are like yours, Neo- very ambiguous.

It's actually not America's fault one bit that the P.A. provided no resistance to the taliban's entry into Pakistan. In fact, we should have expected your forces on those borders ready to nail the invaders if you were commited allies. Neither is it America's fault at all that the P.A. failed to understand the full extent of militia entrenchment in Loe Sam before attacking at great cost to everybody concerned.
 
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"Not to mention the fact that everyone knows those borders were unguarded, and have been for centuries."

Bet they were guarded when the Soviets were on the other side. Doesn't matter though, on Sept. 12th a good ally would have rushed to the border with your divisions and prepared for the obvious given historical predilection. You didn't.

Maybe that's because the taliban/A.Q. anticipated a warm welcome not only from their brother tribesmen east of the Durand Line but from one of only three nations whom recognized them and the only which shared a common border and whose intelligence service had a relationship reaching back to at least 1996.

As I wrote earlier, it's clear what the Americans should have done in retrospect and, perhaps, it was possible. I'd certainly not count on afghan forces to close a border or perform any significant combat task on an important operation. The forces in-country were still small and there was undoubtedly some mis-placed adoration/infatuation with SOF/N.A. combos.

"The result was that the bulk of the scum was able to get through."

Ummm...you actually mean those who hadn't already left anywhere between Sept. 11, 2001 and mid-February 2002, don't you? I'm sure one or two went ahead to get things rollin'.
 
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i dont know wheather this is a section for this but i think we should all be proud of what our army has done in Sierra Leone

 
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This indeed is very sad and i am really happy and thankful to Aljazeera at the same time for finally covering a report that is so important and is being overlooked by the whole world. Its like the the whole world is turning a blind eye to what Pakistan is involved in.

No other News station covered the war in Bajaur so extensively as did Al-Jazeera clearly making it one of the best new channels in the world. Alot of the international media may not find this important but it is one of the most crucial battlegrounds right now. These FATA areas are the breeding grounds for terrorists and their heinous agendas. Any one on these boards who sympathize with Taliban should be ashamed of themselves.

Its also sad to see the morale of the troops so low and they have every right to be confused. This is alot more complicated than it seems, Pakistan was never involved in Guerrilla warfare before and has always trained for Conventional warfare but i think steps are being taken by the Military to train for Guerrilla warfare which i believe is a lot more crucial given the nature of this War on Terror.

Lets hope for the best and support our troops in what they are involved in. If or when you see a Soldier a simple smile or a salute goes a long way for these individuals who are risking their lives to protect the Pakistani's from these Forsaken Taliban and their ridiculous religious ideologies.

Cheers
 
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Most of our honorable friends at this forum consider the Al-Jazeerah documentary as the Testimony / Proof of Pakistan Army's commitment to the "War on Terror".

Debilitating losses suffered by our Army in Waziristan, Bajaur and Swat are being portrayed as a “Sacrifice”. Some commentators take pride in the fact that our “contribution” in men and materials are more than all the NATO members put together. Others are pointing to thousands of FATA Pushtoon casualties in the operations. Others are whining about the continued UAV attacks on Pakistani soil, and requesting the US to allow Pakistan Army to do their dirty job with greater efficiency!

As a nation we can claim the distinction of being the greatest “BEGANY SHAADI MEIN ABDULLAH DEEWANA”. We are ABDULLAH DEEWANAS with a difference …. We are creating a great show for the Western bedrooms by putting our own house on fire. We take pride in turning 30% of Bajaur’s population into internally displaced refugees.

Now just look at the end result. Great swaths of Pakistani territory in Balochistan, NWFP and FATA are essentially no-go areas for ordinary Pakistanis. Nobody is safe any more. Infrastructure has crumbled, economic activity has come to a halt. The Army has substituted its mission of defending the borders of Pakistan with fighting a phony War on Terror with which Pakistani nation has no concern or interest.

Bravo Al-Jazeerah for the excellent documentary.
 
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AgNoStIc MuSliM :
“”If no assets really did not or do not exist in Bajaur, the US should be moving her assets to where their impact actually counts, since they seem to be doing nothing more than inflaming public opinion in their current deployment locale.””

Predator UAV has a “straw eye view” of the world. Hellfire Cueing has its own attenuation limitations on most targets, LOBL is not always ensured. Flying in the north requires steep climb gradients; engines are limited by density altitude. Weather is also pretty much nasty. MQ-9 is pretty expensive to operate.

Why waste precious assets while the job can be done by PA troops for free!!!
 
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Most of our honorable friends at this forum consider the Al-Jazeerah documentary as the Testimony / Proof of Pakistan Army's commitment to the "War on Terror".

Debilitating losses suffered by our Army in Waziristan, Bajaur and Swat are being portrayed as a “Sacrifice”. Some commentators take pride in the fact that our “contribution” in men and materials are more than all the NATO members put together. Others are pointing to thousands of FATA Pushtoon casualties in the operations. Others are whining about the continued UAV attacks on Pakistani soil, and requesting the US to allow Pakistan Army to do their dirty job with greater efficiency!

As a nation we can claim the distinction of being the greatest “BEGANY SHAADI MEIN ABDULLAH DEEWANA”. We are ABDULLAH DEEWANAS with a difference …. We are creating a great show for the Western bedrooms by putting our own house on fire. We take pride in turning 30% of Bajaur’s population into internally displaced refugees.

Now just look at the end result. Great swaths of Pakistani territory in Balochistan, NWFP and FATA are essentially no-go areas for ordinary Pakistanis. Nobody is safe any more. Infrastructure has crumbled, economic activity has come to a halt. The Army has substituted its mission of defending the borders of Pakistan with fighting a phony War on Terror with which Pakistani nation has no concern or interest.

Bravo Al-Jazeerah for the excellent documentary.

Debilitating losses in Waziristan, Bajaur and Swat? Hardly.

Mehsud's men were being pummeled into the ground and driven from vast swathes of territory before the PPP led coalition came to power and another 'peace deal' ensued.

In Swat the militants were hounded and driven from any ground they tried to hold or defend, and the results of Bajaur are clear, with close to 2000 terrorists killed (and not just FATA Pushtuns as you cleverly try and dissemble, implying civilians), and close to a hundred soldiers martyred.

The original attempts in FATA, especially in Waziristan were half hearted and conducted with no real sense of the militants being the 'enemy'. Unit leaders being shot down while approaching surrounded militants because they thought they could talk sense into their 'brothers'. Units being surrounded and surrendering because of similar laxity in recognizing the level and extent of the threat.

A lot of that seems to have been rectified (though not all) as the barbarity of these terrorists has come to light, not just in their actions against soldiers, but also in how they have terrorized and oppressed civilians.

Soldiers are human too, and going through the hell of war is bound to have a strong psychological impact on them, and I hope the government provides the mental health services required by these men. But they signed up to defend Pakistan, and Pakistan is under threat from these terrorists who would force their perversion of Islam upon us, therefore Pakistan must be defended.

The terrorists have the solution right in front of them - disarm and do not challenge the writ of the state and the operations stop. Not one word from the likes of you directed at the terrorists and their actions, but then secretly perhaps you long for the women abusing, pedophile like tendencies of these Mullahs from hell. The only way to have this perverted ideology imposed in Pakistan is through force - and what better way than to have the military withdraw and allow these people to spread their tentacles freely throughout society.

Our house was put on fire by these perverts claiming divine guidance for their torture and violence. They can put the fire out by accepting the writ of the state.
 
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Some people AM, just hate America more than they love Pakistan. They're alright with seeing Pakistan burn as long as our inaction is a source of even the mildest annoyance to the US. The Taliban/AQ are destroying our country, and will destroy our country given the chance, they are an affront to Jinnah's vision of Pakistan...even a blind man can see that. What is fighting against that, in defence of your country and deen, if not noble sacrifice? Pakistani soldiers who have given their lives on the line are indeed making the highest of sacrifices, it is sad indeed to see people like Anwar2 belittling their purpose through cynicism and ridicule. But these attitudes are likely to change once the bombs come nearer to home.
 
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It is a most difficult war which is being fought by our troops and sadly the locals are always critical of Pak Army.
The Pakistani Taliban are just different heartless and coldblooded mobs operating under the guise of Islam which disgusts me. Anybody who does not agree with them is a spy and is executed.
I have many family members and friends serving in the Army and the main issues being faced are poor intelligence (something being worked on but needs a lot of effort and resources) and the fact that our soldiers wait till any suspect turns hostile since of course this is not hostile territory in the classic sense where you shoot on sight.
The fact that the tribals have an unbroken tradition of every male being armed also contributes in making it a nightmare to distinguish the hostiles.
Also the tribal hospitality and customs are not understood by most people who are quick to criticize .The tribals sheltered many people during the Soviet Afghan war and these are now their declared brothers.
When they were fighting USSR they were the Mujahideen whom even hollywood glorified (Rambo)!
Now each and everyone is declared a threat and needs to be eliminated?
Such 180 degree turns do not bring about a solution.
Many of the current foreign elements were trained by Uncle Sam and are highly skilled fighters who are still fighting the Afghan war against a foreign power.
These guys tore asunder a superpower like USSR so why does the world and US in particular assume that with some quick actions all of the troublemakers will vanish?

While we need to clean our house we also need to strongly tell the world what the difficulties are so that they realize the gravity of the situation instead of always saying DO MORE!

I will quote a few examples citing the complexity:-
A friend was patrolling in North Waziristan and in the troubled area when he saw a few men praying Maghreb. He went by and was shot in the back by the very same men but luckily escaped with his life.
Another friend was ordered to attack a compound and at night in a terrible storm when grenade in hand he climbed the wall leading his men, to his dismay he found women and children in the compound.
My cousin (belongs to Armour corps) was in command of a border area and after flag meeting the Americans were leaving his post when one of the local FC chaps upon the urging of another FC soldier opened fire on the Americans.
This led to a very bitter standoff.

We have to understand that it is a very difficult battle and our troops are paying a heavy price both physically and mentally.

I always feel that our political efforts are non existent.

The local population needs to be isolated from the extremists by all means and for this we need a political dialogue and reconstruction being handled by senior and well respected politicians/diplomats with whom the locals can relate to.

In parallel and iron hand needs to throttle the terrorists who are abusing our religion of peace and tolerance to infect this nation with suicide bombers and bloodthirsty demons.

A three pronged approach should be used here

1) Religious isolation of extremists by declaring their suicide (prohibited in Islam) bombing a fitna.
I really feel a fatwa needs to be propagated via all channels of the media....why this is not being done is beyond me...even the imam of holy kaaba can be asked to give his statement barring the suicide attacks.
I am sure many local people will as a result distance themselves from the ranks of the extremists. The point also needs to be driven home that fighting against a Muslim State and killing Muslims is not a Jihad.

2) Political isolation of extremists by starting major reconstruction (health, education, roads etc.) with local participation creating jobs and making the people realize that they can have a better life without these gun trotting tehriks who do nothing but cause major damage to all facilities and infrastructure in addition to killing civilians.

3) Precise and totally committed military actions against the extremists elements who do not want to surrender.

All these three aspects should be covered, only then will this War be successful.

I personally salute the brave soldiers who gave their lives, it is not easy to face the
bullets for the sake of your countrymen especially if many do not even appreciate it.
 
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When I see your moniker, I can't help but think of the American soul singer, Al Green.:)

You're the first Pakistani who's related the flag meeting incident. There's actually been two separate instances. One killed a U.S. Army major. Another had severely wounded a senior N.C.O.

Your friends appear to be knee-deep in the muck of this war. The issues you raise are profound. There is an intense amount of intimidation present in the situation and a "gun culture" that's made impossible separating combatants from the populace. Much of the young adult male population in FATAland is, frankly, mobilized on behalf of somebody or another at this point though.

Whether A.Q. and the taliban militias are defeated at this point is almost moot. As much as anything, it highlights for myself how difficult it shall be to deliver the writ of state to FATA even without these catalysts.

And that must happen.

Hate to say it but I can afford to as a yank- there'll be no change which affects perceptions of opportunity and real hopes to compete commercially until the full writ of state is established, FATA's autonomy is removed, and tribal governance as a mechanism of control is dismantled to "one man- one vote".

"US in particular assume that with some quick actions all of the troublemakers will vanish?"

Action is long since required. Quick or not is another matter. Professionals in America and elsewhere don't anticipate rapid change with "quick actions" but do expect that something must begin to take place...

...and that's starting to happen.

Unfortunately, the enemy may be operating inside yours and, in Afghanistan, our decision cycles. When that happens, you react to them.

Korengal might be a great example. We defeat Rehman handily in the fall of 2007 but don't closely track his subsequent movements back into Bajaur nor do we specifically cue the P.A. to do so. He becomes lost in the mix, recovers his equilibrium and reconstitutes his forces and carves out a new home-literally- in Loe Sam.

Now he dictates the conditions. Imposes sharia, taxes road commerce, press-gangs recruits, intimidates locals generally and shuts down the region...while waiting and preparing for battle. As such, when battle comes we fight on his terms for only so long as he wishes before breaking contact temporarily.

The fight will end when he chooses to withdraw altogether or you do.

Both America and Pakistan are behind the eight-ball and playing "catch up". There's a world of practical knowledge and real solutions but this isn't an easy process to disseminate valuable lessons to needful end-users.

We need regular troops in villages and small towns. Platoon presences ink-blotted among communities with none out of manuever range of the others and reaction forces within moments reach. We need assistance from locals but that's really dangerous. It confuses the battlefield and empowers those who may not wish to be unempowered later-especially if armed. ESPECIALLY if we've armed them.

Being present with well-trained, respectful soldiers and eager to fight in the communities will gain local networks. It's proven time and again that if your guys will lay it on the line for the locals, help starts coming your way. But you gotta go there and prove it first and then stay to reap the rewards.

That takes troops. Imagine how many. Small enough to provide coverage to the people over a wide area. Large enough to survive an assault until help arrives. An uneasy balance which, btw, puts the stamp of the army on the neighborhood overwhelmingly so you'd better behave.

Where we do it well in Afghanistan, we have success. It's really worked in Iraq but incentives and motivations are different there. Obviously, at present we don't have enough troops to do it everywhere in Afghanistan and the ANA aren't entirely reliable. Pakistan may not either and I don't know the true reliability or skill of the F.C. I suspect not much on either.

This is an alternative approach to combat operations of a more kinetic sort which we see now in Bajaur. I think there it's unavoidable given the extensive preparations and fortifications. Rehman's men intended to fight for this area. I still wonder why when there are other areas to which he might retreat.

Perhaps he may yet do so. I don't know.
 
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Platoon presences ink-blotted among communities with none out of manuever range of the others and reaction forces within moments reach.

The US seems to be doing that fairly well in some areas, based on articles in vanity fair etc.

How do these smaller units sustain themselves in the face of large Taliban assaults, and what sorts of 'reaction forces' and 'reaction times' are you talking about?

How quickly and how often does CAS deploy?

I am not interested in exact times, but a more general idea of what sorts of support the smaller units count on to survive.
 
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Al Green hmmm...i personally liked "ain't no sunshine".

It is tough going indeed and a heavy burden to bear.
The regular soldiers in Pakistan Army are very professional but with FC the training needs to be improved and their local ties/bonds which were acting as a weakness so far should be turned into their strength but it shall require some excellent planning and motivational moves.
I think there was something in the air about US helping train/equip FC...was something started on these lines?
Since FC recruitment is mostly local so if they can be made more efficient it shall be a major step.

The terrain in these areas is as tough as it gets.
Back in the afghan war my father was posted in Parachinar and he showed me such caves in which 200 men can easily hide without anyone finding out.
The militants are not only well versed with the terrain but are excellent veteran fighters and well armed, rather too well armed.
These guys are using/recruiting the tribals who are natural born commandos due to their rigid and martial lifestyle. They are crack shots and lethal in Close Quarter Combat.

I heard about a lot of latest gadgets and night fighting equipment being used by these guys so it is very very tough going indeed.
This needs to be investigated as maybe other countries are covertly involved in arms supply to serve their own vested interests. Whoever is found involved should be dealt with on priority.

The numerous Indian consulates and staff in Afghanistan do not make the situation better, if RAW wants to fuel the fire then i am afraid they are not seeing the bigger picture here as this fire can spread to them as well.

Recently some initiatives are being taken to improve intelligence sharing ... which is the key here.

Previously there was lack of rapid air support and not even rapid artillary support was available...
There was an instance (year or two back) where 100s of Uzbeks and Tajiks attacked a recently occupied fort by a few dozen soldiers and despite many hours of desperate fighting there was no artillery support (the commander even requested that his coordinates be barraged by heavy artillery so that he goes down with the enemy troops besieging the fort) and obviously the militants were victorious at the cost of the brave soldiers who were willing to sacrifice themselves and even wanted to take down the militants with an artillery barrage on themselves.
What more can a country expect from her sons in uniform?

With artillery and air support and the enhancement of PAF F-16s (with advanced munitions) we can expect more precise ground attacks which shall definitely add much needed decisiveness to the encounters.

:pakistan:
 
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"The US seems to be doing that fairly well in some areas, based on articles in vanity fair etc."

No. We are TRYING in Kunar and we do employ our units there in platoon cantonments (or COP-combat outposts) but the reality is that our relationships in the Korengal and Kunar are still really acrimonious. It IS enemy central insofar that the locals are subject to the most virulent radicalization and are already acculturalized as intensely independant, criminal, and warlike- even by Pashtu standards.:lol:

Long legacy of lumber wars and control of smuggling routes there. Truly Hatfield and McCoy stuff by our analogy. Terrain is unique insofar as I can tell also-even by Afghan standards of isolation. There's rugged and then there's truly ridiculous.

Iraq appears to have greater population densities that accomodate the control of large numbers of folks by a relatively small contingent of troops. Lots of bang for the buck. Road links between these troops are better thus facilitating the movement of reinforcements where necessary.

"How do these smaller units sustain themselves in the face of large Taliban assaults, and what sorts of 'reaction forces' and 'reaction times' are you talking about?"

Goes back to our arguments about intelligence. Starts there. Part of surviving to greet the next morning entails building networks that can feed you at least SOME clues now and again.

Part of our failure last summer was not recognizing some clues and being so new to that locale that we'd neither entrenched fully nor had any local relationship. The taliban moved fast with a good plan while they still could. They located us, mobilized, and attacked before we were dug and fully wired in. They did so with the help of the adjacent village and did so quickly in accordance with their objectives. So they exploited a brief window of opportunity very adroitly.

In Musa Qala some time ago, there was a platoon of Brit paras, I believe, that ended up in a fight that lasted some days where ammo was convoyed in armored vehicles to a platoon house that was otherwise surrounded. Same thing again with them near Basra.

In Afghanistan, it might be some time before you've a reaction force to assist you. Troops available. Lift available. Suitable routes or landing zones. All that might come to play. Ink-blotting builds some risk into the equation. Resource gaps show up in the worst ways.

"How quickly and how often does CAS deploy?"

Allowances are made for diverting aircraft to units in contact. They still must be cleared hot IAW ROEs once on station. CAS is quick. Not as quick as mortars or artillery.

I wouln't wish to go further here.:agree:
 
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