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Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

You know copy and pasting is never a good idea! Half the vessels you refer to were unarmed! The remaining ones were true loses just like your INSKhukri.

8 Dec 1971 INS Khukri frigate SUNK by PNS Hangor

Secondly, keep gloating about 1971, being overconfident always helps!! Read the article below and tell me why you are behind in inducting your subs??

If you think you will ever play catch up with Pakistan or be a role player in the Arabian sea, then that's nothing more than a dream. In reality you guys cant even parallel berth without hitting each other:
Submarines collide, lucky escape for sailors - The Times of India

So all this talk of 1971, save it!!! Just you guys being on this forum trolling tells me how much confidence you have in your Armed forces!

Indian Navy's submarine fleet in poor health: CAG
Indian Navy's submarine fleet in poor health: CAG - India News - IBNLive

Induction of Scorpene submarines delayed by three years
Press Trust Of India
New Delhi, February 23, 2011


The first of the six Scorpene submarines would now be inducted into the Navy by 2015 against the planned induction in December next year, the Defence Ministry said on Wednesday. Defence Minister A K Antony said the Government has also granted sanction for cost revision of the Project-75 contract signed with French company DCNS in 2004 under which the first submarine was scheduled to be delivered in 2012 and was to be followed up by delivery one vessel each year up to 2017.

"The first submarine is scheduled to be delivered in the second half of 2015. There has been a delay due to initial teething problems and absorption of technology," the Minister said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha.

The submarines are being built by the Mumbai-based Mazagon Dockyards Limited (MDL) in partnership with DCNS.

The Minister said that the cost revision was sanctioned keeping in mind the increase in cost of MPM items, related subheads and additional MDL infrastructure.

Antony said the Navy was bridging any submarine capacity gap through upgrades on the existing fleet of Russian and German-origin under water fleet.

He added that the government was also working on the proposal to construct six additional submarines for the Navy under Project-75 (India).

Induction of Scorpene submarines delayed by three years - Hindustan Times

i want to know one question from all pakistani member , why are you so worried about our armed forces? . when your own forces are in poor condition
 
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You just have to talk to the Pakistani Navy veterans of 1971 to really understand your grand statement. I'm pretty sure they remember.
But just to update you:

Date Ship Weapon Victim Victim type Status
3 Dec,1971 INS Rajput Depth charges PNS Ghazi Submarine Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nirghat Styx ASM PNS Khaibar Destroyer Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM PNS Shahjahan Destroyer Sunk*
4 Dec,1971 INS Veer Styx ASM PNS Muhafiz Minesweeper Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM Venus challenger Merchant*** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Talwar 4.5 " + 40mm Patrol craft** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM Harmattan Merchant Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM SS Gulfstar Freighter Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM PNS Dacca Tanker Damaged
8 Dec,1971 INS Brahmaputra 4.5 " 4x Patrol Craft Sunk¹

That summarises the PN losses. :P
You can correct your impressions.

By the way the "achievement" in the bold is highly doubtful/controversial and for me and many other people a complete farce.;)
 
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i want to know one question from all pakistani member , why are you so worried about our armed forces? . when your own forces are in poor condition

I want to ask ONLY one question from ALL the Indians on this forum: " IF you have so much confidence in your armed forces, what are you doing on this forum defending them? After all this is a Pakistani Forum not Indian!"


IF our forces were in poor condition, Pakistan would have been over run by you, by now.

Since that didn't happen, and you claim our Armed Forces are in poor condition, that tells me you guys are cowards and nothing but full of hot air!
 
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Its being admitted by ex-IN personnel now as well :yahoo:

Aray Bhai, when you didn't sink it, toe record kia khak hoega!! :hitwall:

Now, no record of Navy sinking Pak sub in 1971

Publication: The Times Of India Delhi; Date: May 12, 2010; Section: Front Page; Page: 3


Now, no record of Navy sinking Pak sub in 1971

Files Were Destroyed In 1980


Josy Joseph | TNN

New Delhi: The sinking of Pakistani submarine Ghazi in the 1971 Indo-Pak war may have been one of the high points of India’s first-ever emphatic military victory but there are no records available with naval authorities on how the much-celebrated feat was pulled off.

As a debate rages over a TOI report on the destruction of all records of the 1971 Bangladesh war at the Eastern Army Command headquarters in Kolkata, it transpires that naval authorities also destroyed records of the sinking of Ghazi in 1980.

The troubling finding has been thrown up by a trail of communications among the naval brass.

Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi, regarded a major threat to India’s plans to use its naval superiority, sank around midnight of December 3, 1971 off Visakhapatnam, killing all 92 on board in the initial days of the war between India and Pakistan. The Indian Navy claims the submarine was destroyed by depth charges fired by its ship INS Rajput. Pakistani authorities say the submarine sank because of either an internal explosion or accidental blast of mines that the submarine itself was laying around Vizag harbour.

According to a set of naval communications made available to TOI by sources familiar with the Ghazi sinking, senior officers and those writing the official history of Navy exchanged a host of letters admitting to the fact that crucial documents of Ghazi were missing.

Immediately after Ghazi sank, Indian naval sailors had recovered several crucial documents and other items from the submarine, wreckage of which is still lying underwater off Vizag.

On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnambased Eastern Naval Command, told Vice-Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, “all-out efforts were made to locate historical artifacts of Ghazi from offices and organizations of this headquarters. However...I was unable to lay my hands on many of the documents that I personally saw during my previous tenure.”

The Ghazi story

PNS Ghazi was a US-made submarine that was leased to Pakistan in 1963

It was the first submarine operated by the Pak navy and saw action in the 1965 and 1971 wars In 1971, Ghazi sailed from west Pakistan to the east,

hunting for India’s aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

The Indian navy claims that INS Rajput, which had already been hunting for Ghazi, destroyed the submarine around midnight of December 3, 1971

Pakistan, and some observers, say Ghazi was destroyed by either an internal blast or an accidental blast of mines

when they were being laid All 92 on board Ghazi were killed, and the wreckage of the submarine still lies off Visakhapatnam

The sinking of the submarine helped India effect a naval blockage of the Bangladesh coast SINKING OF RECORDS Did we create false war heroes?

New Delhi: If the Army made a mess of preserving documents relating to the spectacular 1971 victory over Pakistan, the Navy’s not far behind. Records on the sinking of Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi have gone missing. On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnambased Eastern Naval Command, in a letter to Vice Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, said, “We are still continuing to search for old files and as and when they are located, I will send appropriate documents for your project.” Mohanrao also referred to inquiries with Commodore P S Bawa (retd), who worked with the Maritime Historical Society, to find out about the artifacts. Here also, the Navy drew a blank.

What Mohanrao’s letter does not disclose is the letter written by Bawa himself in 1980. On December 20, 1980, Bawa, then a commander with the Maritime Historical Society, said, “In Virbahu, to my horror I found that all Ghazi papers and signals were destroyed this year. Nothing is

now available there.” He was writing after a visit to Virbahu, the submarine centre at Vizag, where the documents, signals and other artifacts recovered from Ghazi were stored. His letter (MHS/23) was addressed to Vice Admiral M P Awati, the then chief of personnel at the naval headquarters.

Over the years, in the 1990s, as Vice Admiral Hiranandani sat down to write the official history of Navy, he made several efforts to get the Ghazi documents, records show. In one of his letters to the then chief of eastern naval command, Vice Admiral P S Das, he sought the track chart of the Ghazi, the official report of the diving operations on the Ghazi from December 1971 onwards and any other papers related to the submarine. But none of it was available for the official historian of the Navy.

A retired Navy officer, who saw action in 1971, said the destruction of the Ghazi papers and those of Army in Kolkata are all fitting into a larger trend, many of them suspected about Indian war history, of deliberate falsification in many instances. It is high time the real history of those past actions were revealed. “We have enough heroes,” he said. “In the fog of war, many myths and false heroes may have been created and many honest ones left unsung,” he said.
 
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Aray Bhai, when you didn't sink it, toe record kia khak hoega!! :hitwall:

Now, no record of Navy sinking Pak sub in 1971

Publication: The Times Of India Delhi; Date: May 12, 2010; Section: Front Page; Page: 3


Now, no record of Navy sinking Pak sub in 1971

Files Were Destroyed In 1980


Josy Joseph | TNN

New Delhi: The sinking of Pakistani submarine Ghazi in the 1971 Indo-Pak war may have been one of the high points of India’s first-ever emphatic military victory but there are no records available with naval authorities on how the much-celebrated feat was pulled off.

As a debate rages over a TOI report on the destruction of all records of the 1971 Bangladesh war at the Eastern Army Command headquarters in Kolkata, it transpires that naval authorities also destroyed records of the sinking of Ghazi in 1980.

The troubling finding has been thrown up by a trail of communications among the naval brass.

Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi, regarded a major threat to India’s plans to use its naval superiority, sank around midnight of December 3, 1971 off Visakhapatnam, killing all 92 on board in the initial days of the war between India and Pakistan. The Indian Navy claims the submarine was destroyed by depth charges fired by its ship INS Rajput. Pakistani authorities say the submarine sank because of either an internal explosion or accidental blast of mines that the submarine itself was laying around Vizag harbour.

According to a set of naval communications made available to TOI by sources familiar with the Ghazi sinking, senior officers and those writing the official history of Navy exchanged a host of letters admitting to the fact that crucial documents of Ghazi were missing.

Immediately after Ghazi sank, Indian naval sailors had recovered several crucial documents and other items from the submarine, wreckage of which is still lying underwater off Vizag.

On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnambased Eastern Naval Command, told Vice-Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, “all-out efforts were made to locate historical artifacts of Ghazi from offices and organizations of this headquarters. However...I was unable to lay my hands on many of the documents that I personally saw during my previous tenure.”

The Ghazi story

PNS Ghazi was a US-made submarine that was leased to Pakistan in 1963

It was the first submarine operated by the Pak navy and saw action in the 1965 and 1971 wars In 1971, Ghazi sailed from west Pakistan to the east,

hunting for India’s aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

The Indian navy claims that INS Rajput, which had already been hunting for Ghazi, destroyed the submarine around midnight of December 3, 1971

Pakistan, and some observers, say Ghazi was destroyed by either an internal blast or an accidental blast of mines

when they were being laid All 92 on board Ghazi were killed, and the wreckage of the submarine still lies off Visakhapatnam

The sinking of the submarine helped India effect a naval blockage of the Bangladesh coast SINKING OF RECORDS Did we create false war heroes?

New Delhi: If the Army made a mess of preserving documents relating to the spectacular 1971 victory over Pakistan, the Navy’s not far behind. Records on the sinking of Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi have gone missing. On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnambased Eastern Naval Command, in a letter to Vice Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, said, “We are still continuing to search for old files and as and when they are located, I will send appropriate documents for your project.” Mohanrao also referred to inquiries with Commodore P S Bawa (retd), who worked with the Maritime Historical Society, to find out about the artifacts. Here also, the Navy drew a blank.

What Mohanrao’s letter does not disclose is the letter written by Bawa himself in 1980. On December 20, 1980, Bawa, then a commander with the Maritime Historical Society, said, “In Virbahu, to my horror I found that all Ghazi papers and signals were destroyed this year. Nothing is

now available there.” He was writing after a visit to Virbahu, the submarine centre at Vizag, where the documents, signals and other artifacts recovered from Ghazi were stored. His letter (MHS/23) was addressed to Vice Admiral M P Awati, the then chief of personnel at the naval headquarters.

Over the years, in the 1990s, as Vice Admiral Hiranandani sat down to write the official history of Navy, he made several efforts to get the Ghazi documents, records show. In one of his letters to the then chief of eastern naval command, Vice Admiral P S Das, he sought the track chart of the Ghazi, the official report of the diving operations on the Ghazi from December 1971 onwards and any other papers related to the submarine. But none of it was available for the official historian of the Navy.

A retired Navy officer, who saw action in 1971, said the destruction of the Ghazi papers and those of Army in Kolkata are all fitting into a larger trend, many of them suspected about Indian war history, of deliberate falsification in many instances. It is high time the real history of those past actions were revealed. “We have enough heroes,” he said. “In the fog of war, many myths and false heroes may have been created and many honest ones left unsung,” he said.

that's weird but wow.........!!!!!!
 
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It could be a Nuclear Submarine

1101187332-1.gif
 
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Emerging threat: Cabinet to consider Chinese subs – The Express Tribune

/**********************************************/
Emerging threat: Cabinet to consider Chinese subs
By Rauf Klasra
Published: March 9, 2011
Ministry of Defence informs cabinet that Pakistan Navy is facing critical force imbalance of submarines and ships.

ISLAMABAD:
The Ministry of Defence has asked the federal cabinet, which meets today (Wednesday), to approve purchase of conventional Chinese submarines on grounds of “emerging threats” that the country faces. It will also pave the way for the joint development of conventional submarines, officials have said.

The defence ministry has informed members of the cabinet that the Pakistan Navy is facing a critical force imbalance in terms of submarines and ships. The capability gap is widening exponentially with the passage of time, the navy adds. Keeping in view such urgent naval requirements, the issue was also part of the talking points for President Zardari during his visit to China in 2009 and subsequently the matter was also discussed during the Chinese prime minister’s visit to Pakistan in 2010.

The cabinet has been also been told that Naval Headquarters had pursued the matter of acquisition of submarines with the concerned Chinese authorities. A mutually agreed draft protocol is to be signed between the Pakistan Navy and the relevant Chinese department as a first step towards joint development of conventional submarines.

Published in The Express Tribune, March 9th, 2011.
 
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Aray Bhai, when you didn't sink it, toe record kia khak hoega!! :hitwall:

Now, no record of Navy sinking Pak sub in 1971

Publication: The Times Of India Delhi; Date: May 12, 2010; Section: Front Page; Page: 3


Now, no record of Navy sinking Pak sub in 1971

Files Were Destroyed In 1980


Josy Joseph | TNN

New Delhi: The sinking of Pakistani submarine Ghazi in the 1971 Indo-Pak war may have been one of the high points of India’s first-ever emphatic military victory but there are no records available with naval authorities on how the much-celebrated feat was pulled off.

As a debate rages over a TOI report on the destruction of all records of the 1971 Bangladesh war at the Eastern Army Command headquarters in Kolkata, it transpires that naval authorities also destroyed records of the sinking of Ghazi in 1980.

The troubling finding has been thrown up by a trail of communications among the naval brass.

Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi, regarded a major threat to India’s plans to use its naval superiority, sank around midnight of December 3, 1971 off Visakhapatnam, killing all 92 on board in the initial days of the war between India and Pakistan. The Indian Navy claims the submarine was destroyed by depth charges fired by its ship INS Rajput. Pakistani authorities say the submarine sank because of either an internal explosion or accidental blast of mines that the submarine itself was laying around Vizag harbour.

According to a set of naval communications made available to TOI by sources familiar with the Ghazi sinking, senior officers and those writing the official history of Navy exchanged a host of letters admitting to the fact that crucial documents of Ghazi were missing.

Immediately after Ghazi sank, Indian naval sailors had recovered several crucial documents and other items from the submarine, wreckage of which is still lying underwater off Vizag.

On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnambased Eastern Naval Command, told Vice-Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, “all-out efforts were made to locate historical artifacts of Ghazi from offices and organizations of this headquarters. However...I was unable to lay my hands on many of the documents that I personally saw during my previous tenure.”

The Ghazi story

PNS Ghazi was a US-made submarine that was leased to Pakistan in 1963

It was the first submarine operated by the Pak navy and saw action in the 1965 and 1971 wars In 1971, Ghazi sailed from west Pakistan to the east,

hunting for India’s aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

The Indian navy claims that INS Rajput, which had already been hunting for Ghazi, destroyed the submarine around midnight of December 3, 1971

Pakistan, and some observers, say Ghazi was destroyed by either an internal blast or an accidental blast of mines

when they were being laid All 92 on board Ghazi were killed, and the wreckage of the submarine still lies off Visakhapatnam

The sinking of the submarine helped India effect a naval blockage of the Bangladesh coast SINKING OF RECORDS Did we create false war heroes?

New Delhi: If the Army made a mess of preserving documents relating to the spectacular 1971 victory over Pakistan, the Navy’s not far behind. Records on the sinking of Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi have gone missing. On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnambased Eastern Naval Command, in a letter to Vice Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, said, “We are still continuing to search for old files and as and when they are located, I will send appropriate documents for your project.” Mohanrao also referred to inquiries with Commodore P S Bawa (retd), who worked with the Maritime Historical Society, to find out about the artifacts. Here also, the Navy drew a blank.

What Mohanrao’s letter does not disclose is the letter written by Bawa himself in 1980. On December 20, 1980, Bawa, then a commander with the Maritime Historical Society, said, “In Virbahu, to my horror I found that all Ghazi papers and signals were destroyed this year. Nothing is

now available there.” He was writing after a visit to Virbahu, the submarine centre at Vizag, where the documents, signals and other artifacts recovered from Ghazi were stored. His letter (MHS/23) was addressed to Vice Admiral M P Awati, the then chief of personnel at the naval headquarters.

Over the years, in the 1990s, as Vice Admiral Hiranandani sat down to write the official history of Navy, he made several efforts to get the Ghazi documents, records show. In one of his letters to the then chief of eastern naval command, Vice Admiral P S Das, he sought the track chart of the Ghazi, the official report of the diving operations on the Ghazi from December 1971 onwards and any other papers related to the submarine. But none of it was available for the official historian of the Navy.

A retired Navy officer, who saw action in 1971, said the destruction of the Ghazi papers and those of Army in Kolkata are all fitting into a larger trend, many of them suspected about Indian war history, of deliberate falsification in many instances. It is high time the real history of those past actions were revealed. “We have enough heroes,” he said. “In the fog of war, many myths and false heroes may have been created and many honest ones left unsung,” he said.

I know from past experience, that when an incident like this happens, records are made step by step, and at least a dozen departments within the concerned Armed Service painstakingly analyze it, document it, and subsequently revise tactics and SOP both accordingly.

Further to it, if the event was truly an exceptional event, it is made a case study, and taught at the respective academy.

Now in this particular case NOTHING like this happened, and the only record that existed was in the ARCHIVES. SO what does that tell you?
 
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Slightly old but good news indeed as it adds new teeth in an old jaw :)



TOULON, France - French naval company DCNS won a contract this summer to supply two Subtics combat management systems for Pakistan's Agosta 70 diesel-electric submarine fleet, industry executives said.

DCNS signed in June a contract for modernization of Agosta 70 boats, described as "very old subs," for an Asian country, Alain Cursat, DCNS marketing manager for submarine combat systems, told journalists. Cursat declined to identify the country. But other industry sources said Pakistan was the customer. One industry executive said the prospect of selling new submarines to Pakistan had gone cold as the Navy was modernizing its existing Agosta fleet, while a second executive said Pakistan was the only operator of the Agosta boat in the region. akistan bought two Agosta diesel-electric submarine, built by DCNS, in 1978 and had been looking to add to its fleet with more modern boats.

DCNS had pitched the Marlin, a submarine derived from the Scorpene boat co-developed with Spain, but the Pakistan Navy favored the rival U214 boat from German archrival Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW). The Pakistan Navy has not signed with HDW.

DCNS is expecting other contract wins for the Subtics system, notably among the fleet of U209 boats operated by South American navies, as operators look to implement a midlife upgrade of their conventional (SSK) submarines, Cursat said.

DCNS expects to capture about 10 more modernization contracts for its Subtics system over the next 10 years, he said.

A sale to Pakistan of new submarine technology is a sensitive issue as DCNS sold six Scorpene submarines to India for $3.9 billion in 2005. The boats are being built locally by Mazagon Docks but the program has fallen behind because of technical problems.

Subtics stands for submarine tactical integrated combat system. The system, which integrates sensors and weapons, can be retrofitted on boats of different manufacture, including Russian build, Cursat said.

DCNS last year signed a deal for the supply of four Scorpene type submarines to Brazil, and is helping the Brazilian Navy to design and build the non-nuclear parts of a nuclear powered submarine. The Brazilian submarine deal, including construction of a shipyard and naval base with the local joint venture partner Oderbrecht, is worth 6.7 billion euros, of which four billion goes to DCNS.


DCNS Wins Sub Contract With Pakistan - Defense News
 
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Why a country manged to murder 17 French Engineers in Karachi a few years ago? These engineers were manufacturing Agosta SUBs in Karachi.
Why our Navy is being attacked again and again in Karachi? Recently 3 Buses are attacked.
Why some one is so scared from Pak Navy?

Probably answers of all these questions can be found in following ink:

Howard Bloom Warning of Nuclear Threat from Pakistan
 
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