Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[Nishan_101]

An interesting article about how effective an AIP equipped SSK can be....

Man if PN had joined the Germans on their U-212 program then we would have 7 of Agosta-90Bs along with 7 U-212 and going for 7 U-214s

 

[araz]

Man if PN had joined the Germans on their U-212 program then we would have 7 of Agosta-90Bs along with 7 U-212 and going for 7 U-214s

I think Pakistani and German ethos are so far apart that we will never be able to work with them. germans are everything now and well organized while Pakistanis are generally disorganized and everything manyana. If we could it would have indeed been a healthy and worthwhile relationship which would have led to PN developing into a potent force.
Araz

 

[Nishan_101]

I think Pakistani and German ethos are so far apart that we will never be able to work with them. germans are everything now and well organized while Pakistanis are generally disorganized and everything manyana. If we could it would have indeed been a healthy and worthwhile relationship which would have led to PN developing into a potent force.
Araz

What ever you say PN has done a great mistake along with GoP. That when they we were assembling the Agosta-90Bs in Pakistan they should have assembled two of them and also started on the construction on the 3rd shipyard. More over after that continue to produce these submarines two of them in 1.5 years on time till it reach 7. By the time before, they should have joined with Germans along with Turkish for R&D of U-212 to have fielded 7 of them starting after the construction of the last Agosta-90B that can be 2005.

 

[razgriz19]

What ever you say PN has done a great mistake along with GoP. That when they we were assembling the Agosta-90Bs in Pakistan they should have assembled two of them and also started on the construction on the 3rd shipyard. More over after that continue to produce these submarines two of them in 1.5 years on time till it reach 7. By the time before, they should have joined with Germans along with Turkish for R&D of U-212 to have fielded 7 of them starting after the construction of the last Agosta-90B that can be 2005.

i hope you realize that PN just assembled the sub, they did not make it by their selves. Parts, machines, engines, electronics, EW suite and everything else were bought from France.
Its not cheap to assemble a sub, specially when you don't make any parts at all. everything has to be bought.

PN cannot buy more than 3-4 subs.
and I'm talking about chinese subs, German are even more expensive.

 

[Nishan_101]

i hope you realize that PN just assembled the sub, they did not make it by their selves. Parts, machines, engines, electronics, EW suite and everything else were bought from France.
Its not cheap to assemble a sub, specially when you don't make any parts at all. everything has to be bought.

PN cannot buy more than 3-4 subs.
and I'm talking about chinese subs, German are even more expensive.

But you don't realize that we had money till 2008 and we can make use of it much earlier like # ship yard at KE&SWs and 7 Agosta-90Bs along with JV on U-212 or license production of 7 U-214Ps that can be started from 2006.

 

[james5]

Indian is getting scorpenes. if pak gets marlins, india will update scorpenes to marlins. since india is likely to get more sub sandwiches than pak, this will provide india the advantage.

 

[JohnyD]

This thread was started back in Feb 2008, this is Sep 2012, has there been any progress on shortlisting the vendor for Subs?

 

[Nishan_101]

This thread was started back in Feb 2008, this is Sep 2012, has there been any progress on shortlisting the vendor for Subs?

We had $16.5 Billion in 2008 and we can do a lot even much earlier like for the PN:

They should have started working on a 3rd Shipyard at KE&SWs along with modernizing the whole facility in 2000 and more over upgrading the Agosta-70s in 2000 as well to reach similar level to Agosta-90B.
Also concentrating on Agosta-90B to assemble/manufacture two of them at a time after gaining 1st one from France in 2001 to have a total of 7 Agosta-90Bs till 2007.

Also in the mean time they can join in with Germans on U-214 or even French on their Scorpion in 2000 and inducting it later after 2007.

 

[fatman17]

Brief History of Submarine Construction in Pakistan

Date of Issue (December 12, 2003)



Pakistan Navy Submarine Force was established in April 1964 with the acquisition of first Guppy class conventional submarine from US Navy. Subsequently 03 newly constructed Daphne class conventional submarines were acquired from DCN France in the year 1968-70. Another Daphne class submarines was acquired from DCN France.

Immediately after the acquisition of first submarine, foundation of submarine maintenance infrastructure was laid at PN Dockyard Karachi. Over the years this infrastructure was expanded with state of the art machinery, tools, jigs & fixtures and skill of the work force was also enhanced. The decision for major overhauling of submarines in PN Dockyard proved to be a turning point in the history of submarine force. Till today PN Dockyard has on its credit 30 major overhauls of the submarines.

This rich experience of submarine maintenance coupled with special repairs of pressure hulls of PNSM HANGOR and PNS/M SHUSHUK in 1991-92 and naval construction experience of midget submarines, PNS LARKANA, and auxiliary crafts raised the confidence level of the decision makers to embed the elements of transfer of technology in the acquisition of future submarines. As a result in September, 1994 a contract was signed with DCNI of France to build 03 submarines.

The first submarine was to be completely built in France. Pakistan Navy engineers and workmen were to be trained and qualified in the construction processes. DCN was to assist PN Dockyard to upgrade the infrastructure for construction of submarine. To optimize the available infrastructure some works were shared with KS&EW as well. The first submarine joined PN Fleet in December 1999 as PNS/M KHALID.


The transfer of technology level for next two submarines was to be raised gradually in second and third submarine. This was also necessary to immediately put to use the new acquired construction skills. Based on this principle, three pressure hull sections of submarine No. 2 (PNS/M SAAD) were built in France and delivered in 1998. This enabled the engineers and workmen trained in France to quickly organize and put to use their skills. Even before the delivery of sections of submarine No. 2 the work on major structures was started in December 1997. The three sections were transferred to Section Building Hall using Dual Walking Beams and were pre-outfitted for one year. These sections were lowered in Graving Dock in December 1999 and junction together. The outfitting phase in Graving Dock included 14000 equipment and foundations, 6000 pipes, 40 kilometers of cables and 38000 connections. Approximately 30000 quality checks were performed during the construction of submarine No. 2. The second submarine was launched on 24 August 2002 and started its harbor and sea trials. This submarine has completed over 1200 harbor and sea trials and on successful completion this has been commissioned as PNS/M SAAD on 12 December 2003.

The maximum transfer of Technology was envisaged in submarine No. 3. The cylindrical part of the pressure hull was to be built from raw plates. All major structures and appendages were to be built in Pakistan. The work of pressure hull construction also started in 1997, was shared between PN Dockyard and KS&EW. PN Dockyard provided the material after cutting to size and shape on NC cutting machine to KS&EW. This kit of material was rolled/formed and welded to make 12 subsections. These subsections were taken to Section Building Hall in PN Dockyard to make 03 large sections. On completion of pressure hull these three sections were pre-outfitted with decks, bulkheads and large structures. Based on similar construction methodology these sections along with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system MESMA, have been lowered into Graving dock on 19 August 2003 and outfitting has started.

The submarine construction at PN Dockyard Department is now fully qualified as per ISO-2000 and its product has been proven and validated. This will meet the need of Pakistan Navy for decades to come.

PPO

 

[fatman17]

Hangor Class (Fr Daphne)


French Daphne Class Submarines HANGOR, MANGRO, SHUSHUK and GHAZI have served actively in Pakistan Navy from 1967 till 02 January 2006, when the Daphne submarines were decommissioned from Pakistan Navy, after the relentless contribution in the defence of the motherland for four decades. These were the machines of great resilience and they served the Navy untiringly with full vigour yet silently. These boats had seen wars and crisis alike and performed extremely arduous sea duties with their moments of excitement and prolonged operational deployments. Daphne submarines were relatively simple war machines but they placed great demands on their officers and crew as they operated with stealth and attacked with swiftness and surprise. During war deployment in 1971, HANGOR sailed to sink INS KHUKRI and damaged INS KIRPAN. HANGOR and MANGRO returned from a successful mission during this war. The valiant crew of HANGOR was rewarded 04 Sitara-e-Jurrat, 06 Tamgha-e-Jurrat and 24 Imtiazi sanads in total.

PNS/M HANGOR Pakistan Navy Submarine was the first of the Daphne type submarines acquired by Pakistan Navy from France. It was commissioned on 1st December 1969 and arrived in Pakistan on 20th December 1970. Since its induction in the Pakistan Navy, PNS/M HANGOR had always been an efficient unit of the squadron and the Navy. She has actively participated in all the major exercises at home and abroad. The submarine has shown the Pakistan Flag at various foreign ports which includes Toulon, Puero de Laluz, Las Palmas, Dakar, Launda, Lounanco Marques, Diego Suarez, Bandar Abbas (Iran), Dubai, Abu Dahbi and Muscat (1993).

PNS/M MANGRO was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on 5th Aug 70 at France. In Pakistan, she has accomplished a variety of operational tasks & patrols and participated in many exercises with different countries. PNS/M MANGRO was a promising unit of Pakistan Fleet for more than 30 years and also participated in 1971 war. The submarine was equipped with variety of torpedoes and sub-surface launch missiles.

PNS/M SHUSHUK was commissioned in Pakistan Navy on 12 Jan 70 at France. In Pakistan, she has accomplished a variety of operational tasks & patrols and participated in many exercises with different countries. PNS/M SHUSHUK was a promising unit of Pakistan fleet for more than 30 years and also participated in 1971 war. The unit has the distinction in the war and to be the first ever S/Ms to enter Kamafuli River (B.D) and Yanfoonriver (Myanmar). The submarine was equipped with variety of torpedoes and sub-surface launch missiles.

PNS/M GHAZI (S-134) was the second submarine of this name. She was a Daphne type submarine built by France for Portuguese Navy in 1969. She flew Portuguese flag for 8 years as CACHALOTE (S-166), meaning Sperm Whale. The submarine was sold to Pakistan through France and commissioned as PNS/M GHAZI on 17 January 1977. The submarine was given a major refit and equipment updating at Toulon, France before being handed over to Pakistan. She joined the Pakistan Navy Submarine Force in April 1977. GHAZI was a Diesel-Electric propelled submarine and was fitted with the most modern electronic devices for detection and reliable weapons for attacking. She has been equipped to carry Sub Harpoon Anti-ship Missiles in subsurface to surface configuration. Her lethality has thus overtaken her old age and she now commands a new respect from the enemy. GHAZI was a high performance submarine which can operate deep, silent and for extended period at sea. GAHZI has taken part in various national and international maritime exercises in Arabian Sea and the Gulf.

These submarines played a pivotal role during the Indo-Pak war of 1971. PNS/M HANGOR sank Indian Navy Frigate KHUKRI and damaged KIRPAN in the outskirts of the Indian Ocean in vicinity of enemy waters. During 1971 Indo-Pak war, the burden of Pakistan Navy's was offensive effort hinged on the small but effective submarine force. PN Submarine HANGOR sailed in the early hours of 22 November 1971 to patrol off the Indian Kathiawar coast under the command of Commander Ahmed Tasnim S.J.
On 9 Dec, in an effort to locate the evasive enemy, HANGOR extended her patrol northward to investigate some radio transmissions intercepted on her sensors. Two contacts were picked up on passive sonar and were identified as warships. The initial range was 6 to 8 miles. A pursuit of the enemy began but the first attempt to attack these ships failed due to speed disadvantage. The submarine however managed to forecast target ships movement and succeeded in taking up a tactically advantageous position on the path of the patrolling frigates by 1900. At 1957 the submarine fired a down the throat shot with a homing torpedo at the northerly ship from a depth of 40 meters.

The torpedo was tracked but no explosion was heard. The second torpedo was therefore fired immediately on the incoming southerly ship and this was followed by a tremendous explosion. The torpedo had found its mark. The other enemy frigate came straight for the submarine when a third torpedo was fired. A distant explosion was heard subsequently and the submarine turned west towards deeper waters for evasion.

In this spectacular action, INS KHUKRI, the ship of the Squadron Commander of Indian 14th Frigate Sqn was sunk within two minutes after receiving a hit in the magazine where explosives were held. 18 Officers and 176 sailors including the Commanding Officer lost their lives. This came as a shattering blow to the Indian Navy. Hangor was the first submarine since World War II, to torpedo and sink another ship. HANGOR's action demonstrated Pakistan Navy's tactical superiority in sub-surface warfare and after the war even the BBC commentators praised Pakistan Naval effort. Considering the shape and size and age of the ships at its command, they said that the Pakistan Navy had acquitted itself well against the Indian Navy.

Prior to acquiring the Agosta class submarines, Pakistan's Navy had four Daphne class submarines which have been retired. All four boats were simultaneously decommissioned in January 2006. The Navy was in negotiations to transfer three to the Bangladesh Navy, while the fourth submarine was kept for the Navy museum. The Navy transferred its recently retired Submarine Hangor to Pakistan Maritime Museum in Karachi.

Specifications

Length 57.8m
Beam 6.8m
Draught 4.6m
Displacement surfaced 869 tons
Displacement dived 1043 tons
Complement 7 Officers, 47 Sailors
Sensors Radar, ESM, Periscopes
Armament 12 21-inch torpedo tubes (8 bow, 4 stern; 12 torpedos) (533mmTT (L-5HWT))
Harpoon USGW 4

Ships
Name No Builder Launched Commissioned Decomm

Hangor S131 DCN 28-6-1969 12-01-1971 Jan 2006
Shushuk S132 DCN 30-07-1969 12-01-1971 Jan 2006
Mangro S133 DCN 07-02-1970 08-08-1972 Jan 2006
Ghazi S134 DCN 23-09-1968 01-10-1976 Jan 2006


GSOrg

 

[Manticore]

Questions have arisen about the efficacy of German submarines just before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chancellor Angela Merkel sit down for talks in Berlin late this week when arms trade will be a certain, but underplayed, segment of the discussions.

A submarine tender is too lucrative one to covet and like all big ticket military hardware deals, sees tremendous undercutting of the rival’s position. This time the contest among French, German and Russian submarines promises to be no different. The last tender, close to Rs. 20,000 crore, was bagged by the French. The Germans were not considered due to a corruption charge that was rejected by the courts here.

Technical problems

Fingers are being pointed at the poor performance of German submarines in the South Korean and Greek navies. The Hindu has independently verified that allegations about persisting technical problems with the Korean’s HDW Type 214 submarines are correct. The informed sources also confirmed that a prototype Greek submarine of German design too suffered from serious problems.

But the Indian Navy, badly short of submarines and struggling to complete the French Scorpene project, does not have any complaints about its four German submarines. Sources in the Navy said the four HDW submarines were working fine and they were satisfied with their performance. The sources expressed ignorance about HDW submarines malfunctioning in South Korea. But Korean diplomatic sources admitted there were problems.

The German submarines with the Indian Navy seemed to have followed the same trajectory as the VIP AgustaWestland helicopters. Of the 12 choppers, three have arrived while the import of the remaining has been suspended due to bribery charge. Similarly, in the case of the German submarines, two arrived from the OEM and the other two were assembled here. Then the bribery charge struck and the option to build two more was withdrawn.

Vital shortcoming

According to the sources, Korean submarines Son Won II, Jeongji and Jung-geun were immobilised after the first submarine was badly damaged on the high seas. It has also been alleged that the submarines suffer noise problems. This is a vital shortcoming in a submarine which has to be as noiseless as possible to avoid detection. Or, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Independent sources, however, said the noise levels of the German submarines were lower than the requirement but higher than what the manufacturers – ThyssenKrupp Marine Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) – had promised. The sources making the allegations also claimed HDW were fined for the persisting technical problems but none could independently verify the charge.

In the case of Greek submarine Papanikolis, the sources backed their claims with video footage that showed an unusual tilt as it dived. The Germans worked on the Papanikolis but the government has raised other issues.

These problems mean it will not be easy sailing for the German submarines when they make a pitch for the Indian Navy tender.

Currently, the Ministry of Defence is looking at the configuration for supply with circumspection and some more time might be required before a firm decision is taken to call for bids.

Ironically, the allegations against the Germans have originated from one of its close allies, thus indicating the cut-throat competition that is always an integral component of such large military tenders.
Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu

 

[Mian H Amin.]

yeah i also read it today. and harpone missiles are an efficient weapon of Pak navy. i personally think its the time we need to develop our navy aswell.

 

[fatman17]

Questions have arisen about the efficacy of German submarines just before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chancellor Angela Merkel sit down for talks in Berlin late this week when arms trade will be a certain, but underplayed, segment of the discussions.

A submarine tender is too lucrative one to covet and like all big ticket military hardware deals, sees tremendous undercutting of the rival’s position. This time the contest among French, German and Russian submarines promises to be no different. The last tender, close to Rs. 20,000 crore, was bagged by the French. The Germans were not considered due to a corruption charge that was rejected by the courts here.

Technical problems

Fingers are being pointed at the poor performance of German submarines in the South Korean and Greek navies. The Hindu has independently verified that allegations about persisting technical problems with the Korean’s HDW Type 214 submarines are correct. The informed sources also confirmed that a prototype Greek submarine of German design too suffered from serious problems.

But the Indian Navy, badly short of submarines and struggling to complete the French Scorpene project, does not have any complaints about its four German submarines. Sources in the Navy said the four HDW submarines were working fine and they were satisfied with their performance. The sources expressed ignorance about HDW submarines malfunctioning in South Korea. But Korean diplomatic sources admitted there were problems.

The German submarines with the Indian Navy seemed to have followed the same trajectory as the VIP AgustaWestland helicopters. Of the 12 choppers, three have arrived while the import of the remaining has been suspended due to bribery charge. Similarly, in the case of the German submarines, two arrived from the OEM and the other two were assembled here. Then the bribery charge struck and the option to build two more was withdrawn.

Vital shortcoming

According to the sources, Korean submarines Son Won II, Jeongji and Jung-geun were immobilised after the first submarine was badly damaged on the high seas. It has also been alleged that the submarines suffer noise problems. This is a vital shortcoming in a submarine which has to be as noiseless as possible to avoid detection. Or, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Independent sources, however, said the noise levels of the German submarines were lower than the requirement but higher than what the manufacturers – ThyssenKrupp Marine Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) – had promised. The sources making the allegations also claimed HDW were fined for the persisting technical problems but none could independently verify the charge.

In the case of Greek submarine Papanikolis, the sources backed their claims with video footage that showed an unusual tilt as it dived. The Germans worked on the Papanikolis but the government has raised other issues.

These problems mean it will not be easy sailing for the German submarines when they make a pitch for the Indian Navy tender.

Currently, the Ministry of Defence is looking at the configuration for supply with circumspection and some more time might be required before a firm decision is taken to call for bids.

Ironically, the allegations against the Germans have originated from one of its close allies, thus indicating the cut-throat competition that is always an integral component of such large military tenders.
Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu

type 212 has a much superior performance record.

We had $16.5 Billion in 2008 and we can do a lot even much earlier like for the PN:

They should have started working on a 3rd Shipyard at KE&SWs along with modernizing the whole facility in 2000 and more over upgrading the Agosta-70s in 2000 as well to reach similar level to Agosta-90B.
Also concentrating on Agosta-90B to assemble/manufacture two of them at a time after gaining 1st one from France in 2001 to have a total of 7 Agosta-90Bs till 2007.

Also in the mean time they can join in with Germans on U-214 or even French on their Scorpion in 2000 and inducting it later after 2007.

this 16.5 bill is not to purchase weapons systems - there is a defence budget allocations - reserves are required to pay for import bills which run the economy.

 

[Asian.Century]

Pakistan needs Chinese and German Submarines as soon as possible !!!!!

 

[BannuTorkham]

aa jayengi toh acha rahega yaar