Pakistan's Special Operations Forces: SSG | SSGN | SSW | SOW | SOG

[Always Neutral]

AN you didn't see any RPG's either but then RPG's would have been the wrong thing to use here. There was a picture here (on one of the threads) of the assault troops fully kitted out with body armour helmets and weapons.

Dear Keys,

Agreed a lot of things go unseen and my comments may not be in right context and before I post them I would like all the people to know I am not doubting the SSG mens capabilities.

I have been for long involved with beureaucrats and can read the double speak.

For eg : I read one Pakistani official saying (the Gen. also repeated it ) that they did not go and enter the LM in the night as they were negotiating and did not want any women casualties.

My Translation : the SSG had no 5the Gen night sights to mount such operations ?

For eg : I saw so many photos of your kids with AK's and gas masks in broad daylight.

My Translation : Either the SSG had no clear orders or just no good sniper rifles ?

The body armour of the SSG looked very worn and obselete to.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

Dear Keys,


For eg : I saw so many photos of your kids with AK's and gas masks in broad daylight.

Regards

SORRY I MEANT YOUNG KIDS. APOLOGIES AGAIN.

regds

 

[Keysersoze]

Dear Keys,

Agreed a lot of things go unseen and my comments may not be in right context and before I post them I would like all the people to know I am not doubting the SSG mens capabilities.

I have been for long involved with beureaucrats and can read the double speak.

For eg : I read one Pakistani official saying (the Gen. also repeated it ) that they did not go and enter the LM in the night as they were negotiating and did not want any women casualties.

My Translation : the SSG had no 5the Gen night sights to mount such operations ?

For eg : I saw so many photos of your kids with AK's and gas masks in broad daylight.

My Translation : Either the SSG had no clear orders or just no good sniper rifles ?

The body armour of the SSG looked very worn and obselete to.

Regards

Well to be honest AN whilst I agree that bureaucrats are full of crap. I think that you are reading too much into what they are saying.
Pak does have Nightvision equipment (I can personally buy some if I wanted (latest gen)) So I am sure the PA would have some. It does not mean that they are going to be the best thing to use in the circumstances.
The pictures of kids with masks etc were taken early on in the siege. SO to take that as a indication that they had no good sniper rifles would be again incorrect.
As to the body armour the same applies. If I could find the picture you would see the assault element was wearing full body armour, Kevlar helmets etc etc the full whack.....With the army as a whole the kit issue MAY have played an issue. however the Specialist units would have more than enough....

 

[smt]

i saw pictures of the comandoes using long rifles and gun of the sort. if they were in close quarter battle, shouldnt they have used cqb guns like the p90 or mp5? theyr lles combersome and would have helped manouvering around in rooms and narrow coridors of the masjid

 

[Keysersoze]

p-90 And mp5 are not "CQB guns"
If the enemy has body armour they would be next to useless.

 

[GOD OF WAR]

Key,

P90 and MP5 are adquete for CQB work. Agreed the 9mm round in the MP5 lacks the terminal velocity to punch through armoour. but ur forgetting AP rounds. 9mm AP rounds would have done the job.

Secondly the P90 ammo, 5.7mm is widely advertised and proven by independent sources as well as NATO standards to defeat titanium plates combined with upto 7 layers of kevlar.

Agreed that the cabine caliber is far more superior, the above two would have been adequate for the Lal Masjid Op.

 

[blain2]

I think the involvement of the SSG has to be understood before making comments.

There were a couple of components involved in the operation both from the SSG. The ones who went in for the initial room clearing and not even photographed were the operators from the Zarrar coy. I know and have seen their equipment and it is as high tech and similar as those worn by CT units around the world. They may not have the very latest NVGs, but what they have is more than sufficient. The guys in this company are fully trained in MoE type stuff and 1/2 of the casualties (5) happened when they were on the roof of the school (daylight had almost broken instead of starting off in the middle of the night as was planned due to prolonged negotiations).

There are very few pictures of the Zarrar Company operators since the media was completely barred by that time. Once the initial clearing was done then operators from Special Operations Bn (I believe SOTF is formed of operators from this bn) went in (these guys were the ones who were photographed the most) and essentially they were very lightly kitted. All of the Zarrar company operators are equipped with CQB weapons.

I am not sure what having an AMR would have done when the problem was sorting out the militants amongst women and other non-combatants. Sniper rifles were used (pictures are available of SSG69 etc.).

Overall, by any analysis, the SSG did a fine job. Had the operation started in the middle of the night, the casualties in my opinion at least would have been even lower.

SSG has a FIBUA syllabus and certain units within the SSG tasked with these types of operations undergo considerable training in this aspect. The whole reason the Special Operations Bn was raised is due to this need.

 

[Bull]

Can you post some of those pics you were mentioning, probably in the multimedia section.

 

[blain2]

Can you post some of those pics you were mentioning, probably in the multimedia section.

Its of the injured operators being brought into the hospital. They are the ones with black overalls. Just search on yahoo news or getty images.

Here are a few of the Zarrar company's getup in general, not specific to LM:

 

[Bull]

Thanks dude, i will search and if i get good snaps i shall post it here.

 

[blain2]

Here is one:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/753...4AD9FDB9CF193550E821156FDE6122130272DFEBE15F0

 

[Keysersoze]

Key,

P90 and MP5 are adquete for CQB work. Agreed the 9mm round in the MP5 lacks the terminal velocity to punch through armoour. but ur forgetting AP rounds. 9mm AP rounds would have done the job.

Secondly the P90 ammo, 5.7mm is widely advertised and proven by independent sources as well as NATO standards to defeat titanium plates combined with upto 7 layers of kevlar.

Agreed that the cabine caliber is far more superior, the above two would have been adequate for the Lal Masjid Op.

I think you guys are suffering from shiny kit syndrome...... The weapons they used were perfectly fine.
Since most soldiers around the world train for CQB with the standard weapons they are issued with, the idea that they need specialist weapons is spurious.

 

[smt]

i agree that the ssgs did a good job, but i read in the news that over 160 operatives went into the mosque. according to the media, around 80 militants were killed, so the special forces outnumbered the militants 2 to 1. doesnt anyone think even 9 comando casualties was a bit high? corect me if im wrong.

 

[blain2]

i agree that the ssgs did a good job, but i read in the news that over 160 operatives went into the mosque. according to the media, around 80 militants were killed, so the special forces outnumbered the militants 2 to 1. doesnt anyone think even 9 comando casualties was a bit high? corect me if im wrong.

Right but the success of the mission has nothing to do with ratio. This is not an issue of personal courage (how many did each person bag). In order to be successful, you have to use utmost resources and personnel for maximum effect and quickest results.

Secondly, depending on the site where the operation was conducted, 160 operators does not mean all of them moved in at the same time. They were probably broken into separate teams and given different objectives (school, women's hostel, etc. etc.). So the number of operators vs. defenders is not a valid way of assesing success at least in my opinion.

The casualties, even one is one too many. I have listed the reason as to why at least 5 operators were hit. Maybe if the operators had more time and darkness on their side, the casualties would have been less. It seems the room clearing was done with precision (even though that is the most difficult part) and as a result many were injured but not very many KIA.

In all honesty, I feel sorry writing all of this...I write this from an analytical standpoint, but those killed were all Pakistanis and there is nothing that can change the sorrow for those (regardless of how misguided or zealous they were). I feel that many of our very finest died in trying to dislodge these folks and many of these folks who died defending their stand were just misled.

 

[smt]

blain, the injured comando in the picture you posted looked kind on in bad shape. i saw other pics of comandoes severely injured. do you know if these guys made it, or were the KIA injured operatives who later diceased in hospitals, or were they KIA during the operation.