Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Zarvan]

What you posted is a lighted variant for Special Forces. for regular infantry its this;

as for handguns a MoU was signed with Beretta!

Yes we signed MOU with Berreta for both HandGun and also shortgun but no idea whether we are going to produce them at POF or not.

 

[Path-Finder]

Yes we signed MOU with Berreta for both HandGun and also shortgun but no idea whether we are going to produce them at POF or not.

Hazrat MoU/LoU is the next step or the first step after trials for discussions to begin for purchase and ToT transfer. It may not fall through is another factor!

 

[Zarvan]

Hazrat MoU/LoU is the next step or the first step after trials for discussions to begin for purchase and ToT transfer. It may not fall through is another factor!

Well it looks like a good gun I hope not only this but also CZ C-10 P is also produced in Pakistan and also launched in civilian markets.

Hazrat MoU/LoU is the next step or the first step after trials for discussions to begin for purchase and ToT transfer. It may not fall through is another factor!

Well it looks like a good gun I hope not only this but also CZ C-10 P is also produced in Pakistan and also launched in civilian markets.

 

[my name is nobody]

CZ is chambered in 7.62x39, therefore a replacement for the Type-56 and AKs. SCAR H is chambered in 7.62x51 and it'll replace the G-3. The competition is between the SCAR H and ARX-200.

CZ has won technical comparison over SCAR in 7,62x51. That is why FN is stagnant.

 

[Zarvan]

CZ has won technical comparison over SCAR in 7,62x51. That is why FN is stagnant.

They haven't won anything over SCAR and nothing is stagnant only thing is FN doesn't create that much sound. Work is going on quietly and things would be finalized soon.

 

[Arsalan]

What you posted is a lighted variant for Special Forces. for regular infantry its this;

as for handguns a MoU was signed with Beretta!

Yup, a MoU was signed indeed. That was not exactly a contract for guns but still.
Italy is also working on up gradation and modernization of POF.

 

[Tiger Awan]

I know for 100 % what Army is doing so nothing to laugh about. CZ won the competition for 7.62 X 39 but now one company which I mentioned is working day and night to come up with x 39 version which already was there but they are making few changes than they will bring it. Now they succeed or not that I don't know but in x 51 category there Rifle is leading and the Rifle you were favoring x 51 in category is out of the competition turns out my doubts about that Rifle accuracy were proven right.


A soldier carrying pamphlets of Rifle makes you think that Army will proceed with the rifle shows How you think ?

If CZ has won the competition for x39, the only reason army will go for another platform for x51 is that CZ was miserable in x51

Pakistan Army has a limited budget and there are a lot of things still unchecked in our shopping list, cant see why we will go for two different and expensive platforms (and yes CZ is expensive compared to our current riffles, SCAR is "VERY" expensive).

 

[Zarvan]

If CZ has won the competition for x39, the only reason army will go for another platform for x51 is that CZ was miserable in x51

Pakistan Army has a limited budget and there are a lot of things still unchecked in our shopping list, cant see why we will go for two different and expensive platforms (and yes CZ is expensive compared to our current riffles, SCAR is "VERY" expensive).

From day one it was two tenders not one. One tender was for Type 56 replacement and one tender was for G3 replacement. In other words one tender was for x39 caliber Guns and one was for x51 caliber. BREN has won x 39 caliber one in x 51 as @Horus has pointed out it's competition between SCAR and Beretta and SCAR is most likely going to win that one. And yes SCAR is expensive but we are ready to pay the price after all SCAR is for sure a 50 year investment with permission to export it's a great deal.

 

[Arsalan]

If CZ has won the competition for x39, the only reason army will go for another platform for x51 is that CZ was miserable in x51

Not exactly. Actually there are these two completely different and independent tenders. One is for the replacement of Type 56 gun and CZ 7.62x39mm is selected in that one. The second one is for replacement of G3 and is for 7.62x51mm. It would have been the case if army decided to ditch the 7.62x51mm for good but it is highly unlikely and we are all set to continue using the 7.62x51mm guns. However, I have been told about one interest clause in that procurement proposal (though it was mentioned with a funny smile so may be was meant as a tease alone) that there is a possibility that the numbers can go up to MILLIONS (that is, both the tenders are joined and ONE GUN is selected, this was mentioned as a possibility). Also personally, I do not think PA will drop the 7.62x51mm altogether.

Pakistan Army has a limited budget and there are a lot of things still unchecked in our shopping list, cant see why we will go for two different and expensive platforms (and yes CZ is expensive compared to our current riffles, SCAR is "VERY" expensive).

Very true. Budget and financial issues are always a problem and they are so for ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. This cannot be denied. However the rifle replacement is not a one or two year project and will be spread to YEARS amount to decade or so. The costs will be distributed, these will be produced in house and the re-export and marketing is confirmed to be among the most important aspects in the business deal, the point where the final decision is now being made since both CZ and FN got the nod after trials for there respective guns.IN short, money is a problem but it is not something that wont be sorted. Still, anyone saying MONEY IS NO ISSUE AT ALL is stupid, as i said, MONEY IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE.

 

[Path-Finder]

From day one it was two tenders not one. One tender was for Type 56 replacement and one tender was for G3 replacement. In other words one tender was for x39 caliber Guns and one was for x51 caliber. BREN has won x 39 caliber one in x 51 as @Horus has pointed out it's competition between SCAR and Beretta and SCAR is most likely going to win that one. And yes SCAR is expensive but we are ready to pay the price after all SCAR is for sure a 50 year investment with permission to export it's a great deal.

SCAR was the best rifle in Trials

Not exactly. Actually there are these two completely different and independent tenders. One is for the replacement of Type 56 gun and CZ 7.62x39mm is selected in that one. The second one is for replacement of G3 and is for 7.62x51mm. It would have been the case if army decided to ditch the 7.62x51mm for good but it is highly unlikely and we are all set to continue using the 7.62x51mm guns. However, I have been told about one interest clause in that procurement proposal (though it was mentioned with a funny smile so may be was meant as a tease alone) that there is a possibility that the numbers can go up to MILLIONS (that is, both the tenders are joined and ONE GUN is selected, this was mentioned as a possibility). Also personally, I do not think PA will drop the 7.62x51mm altogether.


Very true. Budget and financial issues are always a problem and they are so for ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. This cannot be denied. However the rifle replacement is not a one or two year project and will be spread to YEARS amount to decade or so. The costs will be distributed, these will be produced in house and the re-export and marketing is confirmed to be among the most important aspects in the business deal, the point where the final decision is now being made since both CZ and FN got the nod after trials for there respective guns.IN short, money is a problem but it is not something that wont be sorted. Still, anyone saying MONEY IS NO ISSUE AT ALL is stupid, as i said, MONEY IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE.

In my thinking and in my most humble respectful opinion it may be worth exploring the option of multicalibre rifle rather than adopting two weapons platform that require two different expensive deals to be signed along with difficulty of maintenance and production for two systems. Defence spending is going down globally not to mention how many militaries operate two rifles? not many unless its mission specific or calibre specific for the ops. india is a great example who have considered multicaliber option and tried developing one at home and got foreign companies involved like CZ who made CZ 807 for indian requirements.

AR platform for example is being made multiclibre with change of upper or the barrel so you can use 300 blackout or 6.5 grendel with upper and magwell change. there are even gun makers who made AR that fires 556 and x39!!

Bottom line is we need a rifle but economic constraints mean acquiring two rifles from two vendors is not feasible under current economic restraints.

 

[Arsalan]

In my thinking and in my most humble respectful opinion it may be worth exploring the option of multicalibre rifle rather than adopting two weapons platform that require two different expensive deals to be signed along with difficulty of maintenance and production for two systems. Defence spending is going down globally not to mention how many militaries operate two rifles? not many unless its mission specific or calibre specific for the ops. india is a great example who have considered multicaliber option and tried developing one at home and got foreign companies involved like CZ who made CZ 807 for indian requirements.

AR platform for example is being made multiclibre with change of upper or the barrel so you can use 300 blackout or 6.5 grendel with upper and magwell change. there are even gun makers who made AR that fires 556 and x39!!

Bottom line is we need a rifle but economic constraints mean acquiring two rifles from two vendors is not feasible under current economic restraints.

The multi-caliber could have been a smart option but was not very aggressively pursued from the start. We may see a limited application of that but not all guns will be the same. There are chances we opt two different guns, one in 7.62x39 and other in 7.62x51mm. (though i would love standardization and if only one need to be selected i will vote for 7.62x39mm but that might not be the case in real)

 

[Path-Finder]

The multi-caliber could have been a smart option but was not very aggressively pursued from the start. We may see a limited application of that but not all guns will be the same. There are chances we opt two different guns, one in 7.62x39 and other in 7.62x51mm. (though i would love standardization and if only one need to be selected i will vote for 7.62x39mm but that might not be the case in real)

ahem the part in red.

 

[Arsalan]

ahem the part in red.

I know you are talkign about CZ and there history and a new possibility of a multi-caliber option for us as well but what i am saying is that from the very start these are being treated as two different parallel projects. So it is likely that it stays that way. However, as i mentioned, there is this interesting clause in the recommendation proposal increasing the number multi fold indicating that both the requirements have some possibility (though unlikely) of being joined and there fore the number going up multiple times. Now if that happens in a situation where PA opts for one single caliber, favoring one over another or it comes in shape of as multi-caliber option remains to be seen and your guess on this will be as good as mine.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Not exactly. Actually there are these two completely different and independent tenders. One is for the replacement of Type 56 gun and CZ 7.62x39mm is selected in that one. The second one is for replacement of G3 and is for 7.62x51mm. It would have been the case if army decided to ditch the 7.62x51mm for good but it is highly unlikely and we are all set to continue using the 7.62x51mm guns. However, I have been told about one interest clause in that procurement proposal (though it was mentioned with a funny smile so may be was meant as a tease alone) that there is a possibility that the numbers can go up to MILLIONS (that is, both the tenders are joined and ONE GUN is selected, this was mentioned as a possibility). Also personally, I do not think PA will drop the 7.62x51mm altogether.


Very true. Budget and financial issues are always a problem and they are so for ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. This cannot be denied. However the rifle replacement is not a one or two year project and will be spread to YEARS amount to decade or so. The costs will be distributed, these will be produced in house and the re-export and marketing is confirmed to be among the most important aspects in the business deal, the point where the final decision is now being made since both CZ and FN got the nod after trials for there respective guns.IN short, money is a problem but it is not something that wont be sorted. Still, anyone saying MONEY IS NO ISSUE AT ALL is stupid, as i said, MONEY IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE.

With same company providing guns for both x39 and x51 there will be parts that are same in both. No a lot of similarity because chances of a multi-caliber gun are low as you mentioned. But still same company, similarity in parts and manufacturing process and with the numbers of gun we are looking to procure cost will come down compared to riffles from 2 different companies where not only parts and manufacturing process will be different but order will be cut into ... lets say half.

So what I was saying ( and it is just my opinion ) is that if CZ is done deal in x39 it makes it the front runner in x51 too. Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).

 

[Arsalan]

With same company providing guns for both x39 and x51 there will be parts that are same in both. No a lot of similarity because chances of a multi-caliber gun are low as you mentioned. But still same company, similarity in parts and manufacturing process and with the numbers of gun we are looking to procure cost will come down compared to riffles from 2 different companies where not only parts and manufacturing process will be different but order will be cut into ... lets say half.

So what I was saying ( and it is just my opinion ) is that if CZ is done deal in x39 it makes it the front runner in x51 too. Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).

Which CZ model are you proposing for 7.62 x 51mm option? Was it part of the trials?

I understand what you and others are saying and fully agree with it, however to break it all down;

PA seem to be looking for both x39 and x51 guns.

1. Though the requirement may merge at some later point it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to happen and it seems certain that we will buy both x39 and x51, meaning two guns
2. A multi-caliber gun could have been an option but PA never look aggressive about pursuing that option, not so far at least.
3. Both guns from one source makes a lot of sense but what source? CZ did showed a gun chambered for 7.62x51mm at IDEAS 2016 to make things interesting.

Now will the selection of CZ 807 in 7.62x39mm category be a reason enough to convince the PA top brass to consider the same supplier and a similar gun for there 7.62x51mm remains to be seen but as of now it is all guess work since officially CZ have ONLY been selected thus far and it is for 7.62x39mm.

Doesn't mean SCAR is out of the game but Army would surely want to deal with SCAR first. Only way it is out of the competition for x51 is if it has performed very bad or didn't perform well in extreme cold or desert (or something like that).

I think you meant to say that "army would surely want to deal with CZ first"

And no, the CZ did excellent in the field trials and was given approval nod ALONG WITH FN SCAR.