Pakistan’s PL-15 Missile Equipped JF-17 Block 3 is a Serious Game Changer - How India Can Respond to

[Daghalodi]

This applys to both platforms.

The BLOCK3 is coming with a HMD smething that does not exist on your existing fleet of 117 thunders
Also this is your first aesa radar
And the block 3 starts arriving next year its in final testing

LCAmark1a is same and will not start arriving until late 2022 or early 2023

You are right regarding HMU. But you are wrong when it comes to platform. Combat aircrafts arent worth it until they are flying and serving.

Tejas has long way to go to prove its battle ready. An american engine or an israeli radar doesnt mean its combat ready until it is trained and participates in real missions, which tejas has yet to see hence this platform is not mature enough compared to jf17.

You can brag about the dates and years for tejas but unless it sees some real action..it is a lemon.

Even the rafales you get will not be ready for combat until indian pilots can actually train them in action.

Training takes time which you are not taking into consideration.

The time and dates you are giving are not real time expectation and only good for nationalism and fanboy culture.

There is a difference in real world and bollywood.

 

[The Maverick]

What people don't realise that PL-15 is not just for Rafale.

Imagine what this missile will do to: SU-30MKI, Mirage-2000, MiG-27 and 29 (and this is the bulk of the IAF).

There's no mig27 left now buddy

The mig29smt and mig29k are both aesa equipped already with zhuk aesa radar . But I agree the r77 has failed to live up to expectation.

The block 3 will definitely be s real worry as per Chinese specs it looks superior to anything India has bar rafale and meteors.

Marks 1a tejas will match the block 3 imo the extended range derby bvr and Indian Astra combined with elta asea will be massive improvement over the obselete mig21 and even better than mirage2000 5 rdy400 mica combo.

Who sees first block 3 or rafale or tejas will be determined by radar cross section the ew suites the radar performance and not just the range advertised on the bvr itself.in this respect my money is on French Israeli combo over untested unproven Chinese

 

[JohnWick]

Deep down the falcon is still the best you have. You trust western equipment more..

With in 2 years jft blk3 will be our best equipment with AESA radar and PL-15.

The upgraded thunder block 3 looks good and pl15 bvr is good but lacks ram jet technology of the meteors.in Indian rafale

The operational range of MBDA meteor is just above 100km while that of Thunderbolt-15 (PL-15) is more than 300KM....go check Wikipedia.

Marks 1a tejas will match the block 3 imo the extended range derby bvr and Indian Astra combined with elta asea will be massive improvement over the obselete mig21 and even better than mirage2000 5 rdy400 mica combo.

Derby is better than R-77 but still not a match for PL-12 and PL-15 as all the Chinese missiles are designed specifically to out gun western ones.

The mig29smt and mig29k are both aesa equipped already with zhuk aesa radar . But I agree the r77 has failed to live up to expectation.

Mig-29 is out of business as USAF shot Iraqi Mig-29 as a sitting duck more than 30 years ago.

SU30MKI has over 100 indian workshops and still we cant get passed 60% avialability even today

Su-30 will be your new flying coffin like
Mig-21 with in 10 years.the maintenance issues and you will have not a choice except to fly them.

 

[The Maverick]

TOO MUCH misinformation and Bias being spouted about.

The Meteore has a range max range of 160km NOT 100km
Its not its range that is the killer its the NEZ and the ECCM that is fifth generation technology
Here is a neutral article on the Worlds BEST BVRs
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/top-10-bvr-missiles

A FEW things to note
Amraam C5 comes last
Meteore top
Indian Astra and Israeli derby considered superior to SD10
Also Did NOT realise India aleady has 400km novatar BVR in its arsenal of MKI weapons.

Re your point of MIG29 getting annilahated in desert storm .30 years ago.
These were basic MIG29 numbering 30 planes against USA air force of 1500 planes including 6 carrier battle groups F18 F15 F16 stealth bombers...…real time global positioning satalites and E3 AWACS. …….. of course the poor Iraqis where butchered

Indian MIG29SMT and K number 100+ are two decades ahead of those early models and form iraqi air force that back them up with rafale SU30MKI and Tejas And PAF is not USN or USA air force.

Your PL15 has 300km but only against high value large targets like USA bombers or awacs
Fighter sized target range is less than 200km and even lower on low RCS fighters like rafale & Tejas.

its not as striaght forward as you make it.

BVR combat is complex invloves ECM and ECCM and jammers and going hot and cold by dropping and increasiing heights to make a BVR kill beyond 60km almost impossible despite advertised ranges of 100km plus. This is why durig operation swift resort PAF fired 5 amraams at SU30MKI they all missed their targets . I will post a separate thread on this story

 

[Akh1112]

TOO MUCH misinformation and Bias being spouted about.

The Meteore has a range max range of 160km NOT 100km
Its not its range that is the killer its the NEZ and the ECCM that is fifth generation technology
Here is a neutral article on the Worlds BEST BVRs
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/top-10-bvr-missiles

A FEW things to note
Amraam C5 comes last
Meteore top
Indian Astra and Israeli derby considered superior to SD10
Also Did NOT realise India aleady has 400km novatar BVR in its arsenal of MKI weapons.

Re your point of MIG29 getting annilahated in desert storm .30 years ago.
These were basic MIG29 numbering 30 planes against USA air force of 1500 planes including 6 carrier battle groups F18 F15 F16 stealth bombers...…real time global positioning satalites and E3 AWACS. …….. of course the poor Iraqis where butchered

Indian MIG29SMT and K number 100+ are two decades ahead of those early models and form iraqi air force that back them up with rafale SU30MKI and Tejas And PAF is not USN or USA air force.

Your PL15 has 300km but only against high value large targets like USA bombers or awacs
Fighter sized target range is less than 200km and even lower on low RCS fighters like rafale & Tejas.

its not as striaght forward as you make it.

BVR combat is complex invloves ECM and ECCM and jammers and going hot and cold by dropping and increasiing heights to make a BVR kill beyond 60km almost impossible despite advertised ranges of 100km plus. This is why durig operation swift resort PAF fired 5 amraams at SU30MKI they all missed their targets . I will post a separate thread on this story

Right, let me break down your post


"The Meteore has a range max range of 160km NOT 100km
Its not its range that is the killer its the NEZ and the ECCM that is fifth generation technology"

So i assume you know about the Meteor's ECCM/ECM capabilities? Can you please enlighten me as such things are closely guarded secrets and highly classified.

"Here is a neutal artcle on the Worlds BEST BVRs
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/top-10-bvr-missiles"

Could you just talk me through the authors credibility? His background, knowledge, the basis of the rankings etc? Its very clearly a stupid article, i am a part of many defense communities and have not heard anything about this "website" Looking through the rest of their aerospace articles, it looks like utter BS and is clearly portraying a certain narrative...


"Indian MIG29SMT and K number 100+ are two decades ahead of those early models and form iraqi air force that back them up with rafale SU30MKI and Tejas And PAF is not USN or USA air force."

Well, firstly, course theyre a few decades "ahead" but they still carry primitive Russian electronics and avionics, paired with a sub par radar and underperforming missiles, its safe to say Mig-29's are not exactly a major threat to the PAF fleet. You have ordered 36 Rafales, they arent going to protect your whole fleet are they. Once again, we have already established that as long as we stay around 60-70km away, we are reasonably safe from your SU-30's and their lackluster R-77's. Oh and on your final comment, PAF and the US have trained in the same way, and well, the US supposedly struggled against your mig-21's and well, it was clear the PAF didnt, so yes, we are not the USAF/USN.

"Your PL15 has 300km but only against high value large targets like USA bombers or awacs
Fighter sized target range is less than 200km and even lower on low RCS fighters like rafale & Tejas"


"Fighter Sized" typically refers to an RCS of 3m^2, thats roughly the RCS of the Tejas and the Rafale has an RCS roughly equivalent to a block 52 Falcon, if not, just slightly higher.

 

[The Maverick]

Right, let me break down your post


"Fighter Sized" typically refers to an RCS of 3m^2, thats roughly the RCS of the Tejas and the Rafale has an RCS roughly equivalent to a block 52 Falcon, if not, just slightly higher.

Rafale globally recognised as the best low observable non 5th generation fighter on the planet . Due mainly to Spectra EW suite & composite designed airframe . F16 a 1980s designed fighter has three times the RCS of a rafale when fully loaded

Another WEBSITE for best BVR
https://www.airforce-technology.com...s-most-effective-air-to-air-missiles-4167934/

Meteore again TOP.
no chinease missle in list
French USA Russian & Israeli only

 

[JohnWick]

Your PL15 has 300km but only against high value large targets like USA bombers or awacs
Fighter sized target range is less than 200km and even lower on low RCS fighters like rafale & Tejas.

its not as striaght forward as you make it.

But your main fighter mki RCS is very high with its massive size and two large engines , it is a truck when compared to jft, tejas and even rafale....PL-15 makes it highly vulnerable.

.

Re your point of MIG29 getting annilahated in desert storm .30 years ago.
These were basic MIG29 numbering 30 planes against USA air force of 1500 planes including 6 carrier battle groups F18 F15 F16 stealth bombers...…real time global positioning satalites and E3 AWACS. …….. of course the poor Iraqis where butchered

There were stories of dogfights that two
F-15s top gun pilots take on a whole sqd of mig-29.
2 vs 4 are very common dog fights stories in operation desert storm.

This is why durig operation swift resort PAF fired 5 amraams at SU30MKI they all missed their targets . I will post a separate thread on this story

PAF got a confirmed kill of mki....Here is its Memorial in a PAF base.

Indian MIG29SMT and K number 100+ are two decades ahead of those early models and form iraqi air force that back them up with rafale SU30MKI and Tejas And PAF is not USN or USA air force.

Yes very upgraded

Despite aAll the avionics of a plane are regularly upgraded after 5 years....within 5 years all the jfts will be upgraded to the blk3 standards.

TOO MUCH misinformation and Bias being spouted about.

The Meteore has a range max range of 160km NOT 100km
Its not its range that is the killer its the NEZ and the ECCM that is fifth generation technology
Here is a neutral article on the Worlds BEST BVRs
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/top-10-bvr-missiles

You know China has its own internet....that's the reason many information of their military tech remains inside the great firewall....And also on 27/2 IAF was out gunned by PAF due to range of missiles....and in that case PL-15 has twice the range of MBDA meteor.

A FEW things to note
Amraam C5 comes last
Meteore top
Indian Astra and Israeli derby considered superior to SD10
Also Did NOT realise India aleady has 400km novatar BVR in its arsenal of MKI weapons.

Novatar is an abandoned project and not even tested....Here is a 3 year old article about upgradation of SD-10 missiles with ramjet to extend its range more then 200miles.It surely has been done by 2020.
https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-r...Vaw1KU14EX22VWnlFo9EL5q-L&cshid=1590261782903
If you want your delusional indian information then go to indian media or twitter handle of some indians.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Mig-29K cockpit looks something like this
http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/12/indian-navys-mig-29k-tactical-simulator.html

 

[HAIDER]

Indian new worry....

JF-17 vs Rafale: Why Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Poses A Serious Threat To Indian Rafale Fighter Jets?

 

[PakAlp]

I must ask a question, why did India send their planes to Pakistan during Feb27th if they thought their planes have lesser missile range, why only after getting shot down your all making big comments that Rafael is here, Meteor is here, Tejas is here, long range missiles are here etc. You keep repeating history, when I joined this forum all indians were claiming su30mki is a beast and could wipe all of Pakistan airforce, then jf17 came and you called it old junk fighter but Feb 27th proved something else, the Indian airforce should have had complete air superiority but they failed, they could not be a threat to PAF.
This conflict answered alot of questions,

The PAF never claims they have better fighter jets or technology than the mighty indian airforce, their aim is to deny IAF air superiority during any conflict, this is exactly what was done during Feb27th conflict. The PAF will continue to do this, I am surprised how Indians are claiming Jf17block 3 doesn't give Pakistan an edge over IAF, the PAF never claims that, they know IAF is alot bigger than PAF, the budget, technology access is greater, PAF only wants to deny Indian airforce from dominating us, we are not aiming to attack India, its the other way around.

Before India had 200+Su30mkis, Miraaj2000s, Mig29s and PAF countered it with older f16s and Mirage 5s, now India has upgraded su30mkis, Rafael and upcoming mighty Tejas. Pakistan will counter it with f16 block 52s and Jf17 block 3s, the major benefit for Pakistan is that we are able to install technology inside jf17 block 3 which will keep our enemies guessing, the chinese have advanced alot since the pre 1990s, in 2020 they can offer very powerful missiles and technology.

I would however point out that Rafael/Meteor is cutting edge tech acquired by IAF and we cannot deny this, the chinese maybe not have better technology but 100 jf17 block 3 with Aesa/pl15 will be enough to deny rafael entering Pakistan air space, and yet we still have our most advance fighter F16 block 52s.

 

[ziaulislam]

Indian Answer to JF17 block 3 which will/may carry PL15 will be as follows

1. Rafale x 36 fighters RBE2 Aesa Radar with Meteore Ramjet missle range 160km
2. 83 Tejas mark1a with Elta 2052 Aesa Radar and Derby IR range 100km or Astra BVR 100km
3. SU30MKI upgrade to Super MKI includes Ibris Aesa Radar and K77 BVR range 190km

option 3 may not start until post 2025 even later
Rafales are arriving now as we speak
Tejas mark1a is arriving 2022-2023

My understanding PAF block 3 will take 5 years to deliver 50 J17 block 3

Tejas is a big IF..it still on paper order wont come before 2021 and integration and work is yet to be done
Su30 is not even on paper

Count your chickens when they hatch or IF they have hatch

When i was kid i use to hear tejas will come now i am an old man

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

As complementary staffs the following shouldn't be neglected:

 

[m52k85]

Here is one of my posts from earlier discussion.

Since 2000 IAF (excluding INAF) has lost 30 4th generation fighter jets
9 Mig-29
10 Mirage-2000
11 Su-30
from 360 4th generation fighters inventory.

Thats 1 crash for every 11 jets

Compared to PAF

1 JF-17
2 F-16
From 200 4th gen

1 crash for every 66!

PAF clearly has much better record then IAF.
_____________________

UPDATE:


Despite sanctions on Pakistan in 1990s PAF managed to clock 270+ hours per F-16 from 1994 to 2005. This has significantly increased knowing PAF has sufficient spare parts supply after new F-16 deal.

F-16 Fighting Falcon News
Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours

October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.



Here is something interesting

So IAF Su-30 total service life is just 6000 hours

For 30 years in service would be 200 hours per year
or 40 years of service would be just 150.


https://www.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html
A Su-30MKI is overhauled after flying 1,500 hours or 14 years, whichever is earlier. Over its total service life of 6,000 flying hours or 30-40 years, each fighter undergoes three overhauls. Eventually, the IAF's fleet of 272 Su-30MKIs will undergo 816 overhauls - three per fighter.

So our original f-16s from 1985 even with Falcon STAR upgrade to ensure 8,000 hours would be up for retirement by now assuming 250 hours per year per airframe?

 

[aziqbal]

dont think we need Ultra long range missiles

we aren't going to be taking out long range bombers over vast distances

nor AWACSs for that mater

 

[Khan vilatey]

dont think we need Ultra long range missiles

we aren't going to be taking out long range bombers over vast distances

nor AWACSs for that mater

p8-I s ,
tankers
C-17s
C-130s
I’m-76
Su-30
And more

wanted to steal some glory from a perfect response @aziqbal

kv