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Pakistan's P-3C vs. India's P-8I :: India, Pakistan and the Naval Balance

nomi007

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Naval aviation is an important part of the naval strategy of India and Pakistan. The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Sea King helicopters fitted with anti-ship missiles.
Naval aviation is an important part of the naval strategy of India and Pakistan. The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Sea King helicopters fitted with anti-ship missiles. It also acquired the US supplied P3C Orion with Harpoon missiles.

Although the Indian naval leadership had acknowledged the role of and the need for long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) aircraft as force multipliers, these platforms were late entrants in the Indian naval force structure. The current Indian LRMP inventory comprises of the Russian origin Tupolev-142 and Ilyushin-38, which have been upgraded; and a few Dornier aircraft. There have been attempts to fit missiles on some of these platforms with mixed results.

In 2009, India signed a contract worth US$ 3.9 billion with Boeing to supply 8 P-8 Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA). The first P-8I (I for the Indian variant) was handed over to the Indian navy in December 2012 and is currently undergoing trials and crew training. The balance seven aircraft will be delivered in 2013 (two) and 2015 (seven). India is the first international customer for the P-8, and the acquisition of the platform is a good example of the growing Indo-US naval cooperation.

The on-board equipment of the P-8I is similar to that of the P-8A of the US navy, but a number of equipment and sub-assemblies developed by Indian Defence Public Sector Undertaking (DPSU) and private companies have been fitted. The P-8I has a range of over 1200 nautical miles, is capable of in-flight refuelling, and can remain on task at a station for 4 hours. Its weapon suite includes the Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile, Mk-54 torpedoes, and depth charges.

The Harpoon missile is not new to the Indian sub-continent and therefore merits attention. In 2005, the US transferred nine P3C Orion aircraft and 60 Harpoon (40 air-launched and 20 ship launched) missiles to Pakistan. The total package - including a ‘close-in-weapon system’ was worth US$ 970 million. There were concerns among Indian naval planners, as the US had defended the sale of the hardware citing Pakistan’s legitimate self-defence capability.

In May 2011, two Pakistan navy P3C Orion aircraft were destroyed in a terrorist attack on PNS Mehran naval airbase in Karachi. During the 21st meeting of the US-Pakistan Defence Consultative Group (DCG) in December 2012, Pakistan had requested the US for replacements of the P3C Orion aircraft to make up for the losses and it was noted, “The provision of three or four more such aircraft would also help increase the counterterrorism capacity of Pakistani navy.”

The P-8I aircraft is designed for a number of roles and missions including surveillance, reconnaissance, detection, and prosecution of surface and subsurface targets at sea, imaging targets in the littorals, and search and rescue. The Arabian Sea is likely to be high on Indian navy’s deployment priorities where it must contend with the Pakistan navy.

The Pakistan navy has acquired Augusta 90 B submarines fitted with AIP system and there are plans to equip these platforms with Harpoon Block II missiles. Interestingly, the Pakistan naval leadership has noted that these submarines can be modified to deliver nuclear weapons. There have been speculations that Israel may have developed technological capability to miniaturise a nuclear warhead to be fitted on a Harpoon missile. Apparently, the US navy had spotted missiles being tested by an Israeli submarine in the Indian Ocean. It is quite unlikely that Pakistan has the technological knowhow to develop a miniaturised nuclear warhead of such sophistication unless it can obtain assistance from China, which has supported its nuclear weapons programme.

At another level, it is interesting that the Indian navy did not explore the possibility of equipping the P-8I with the Brahmos missile. There could have been at least two reasons: first, the Brahmos is a joint project of the Indian and Russian companies called Brahmos Aerospace, and there may be contractual limitations precluding its fitment on US origin platforms. Second, India has been attempting to diversify its military acquisitions to avoid overdependence on a single source; and in that context, the US naval hardware is a good alternative.

Finally, the P-8I is a significant addition to the Indian navy's armoury. It is a force multiplier and can significantly augment the maritime air surveillance, reconnaissance, and combat capabilities of the Indian navy. It would have to be cleverly deployed keeping in mind that the Pakistan navy is also equipped with Harpoon missiles and has a good knowledge of the missile’s technical parameters and exploitation doctrine. However, the P-8I is a technologically advanced platform as compared to the P3C Orion, and can offer technological edge over the Pakistan navy.
Defence News - Pakistan's P-3C vs. India's P-8I :: India, Pakistan and the Naval Balance

Unit cost


45,000,000–45,000,000 USD (2013)

201,400,000–275,700,000 USD
Engine type
Allison T56
CFM International CFM56
Wingspan
30 m
38 m
Length
36 m
39 m
Cruise speed
750 km/h
815 km/h
First flight
November 25, 1959
2009
Manufacturers
Lockheed Corporation
Lockheed Martin
Boeing Defense, Space & Security
Introduced
1962
2013


498b2b66f4b1fef533e3754138807131.jpg
c74f765ffe2a1209ad19deba825b8935._.jpg
 
Last edited:
. . . .
Upgraded P-3C MPA and P-3B AEW models (equipped with Hawkeye 2000 AEW system) are too good
good for PN
 
. . .
Simply, P-8 was introduced 51 years later as of P-3


1- P-3C has MPA/ASW/ASuW/Reconnaissance roles; whereas P-8I Neptune has all these but in addition; it has a SIGINT package and a High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon system in it. Those two are game changers in naval aviation.

2- AN/APY-10 multifunctional radar beats anything that P-3C Orion has.

3- Poseidon has 11x hardpoints for weapons, Orion has 10.

Those are the most remarkable differences only.
 
. .
I reckon the best replacement for the PN for p3c would be the spanish C295 MPA.

C295 Maritime Patrol Aircraft - Naval Technology

I guess this is the only modern turbo prop bases solution.Jet based derivates for PN would be an overkill /too costly for PN as they only have a small coastline to defend.Given the fact the PN operated relatively close to its shores, a deep in the sea ASW aircraft with no air cover makes no sense.Also, most other ASW platforms have moved on to Jet solutions.SOme obviously wont beavailable to pakistan for sale.

Also note the fact that the P3, even the "C" version is quite old now. Critical Structural issues would face you in the face in by the mid of next decade. Read up on this article from 2002

Navy Ponders Options for P-3 Replacement

One is time tested and the other is new but unproven system.
Capability needs to be tested or else it is useless.
Tha logic did not stop you from adopting the JF17 as the back bone of ur present and future fleet , in lie u of better platform like the F16. Cant afford ..more like it??
 
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Also, P3 has more on station time and range than the jet powered P8.


BTW, any Pakistani members here, I've noticed quite a few P3C flights passing over my house daily, in the morning and night time. One just buzzed as i type this. I live about 5 mins from the coast, in DHA Karachi.

I reckon the best replacement for the PN for p3c would be the spanish C295 MPA.

C295 Maritime Patrol Aircraft - Naval Technology

I guess this is the only modern turbo prop bases solution.Jet based derivates for PN would be an overkill /too costly for PN as they only have a small coastline to defend.Given the fact the PN operated relatively close to its shores, a deep in the sea ASW aircraft with no air cover makes no sense.Also, most other ASW platforms have moved on to Jet solutions.SOme obviously wont beavailable to pakistan for sale.

Also note the fact that the P3, even the "C" version is quite old now. Critical Structural issues would face you in the face in by the mid of next decade. Read up on this article from 2002

Navy Ponders Options for P-3 Replacement


Tha logic did not stop you from adopting the JF17 as the back bone of ur present and future fleet , in lie u of better platform like the F16. Cant afford ..more like it??

Pakistan needs defense items for minimal deterrence. We have no threats from the western side or north. So it is geared to offer India a fight. P3Cs are more than enough for that role. Same thing with F-16s and JF-17s. We need capability that we can damage India enough that they think twice before any stupid move. 2001 and 2008 are a proof of that. Despite India having numerical superiority which it always had, no war or active confrontation took place. Now imagine if the same scenario was India vs China, India vs Bangladesh or India vs Srilanka.
 
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Sorry for asking dumb question, is it meant for destroying submarines ? heard it somewhere not sure though.
 
.
Naval aviation is an important part of the naval strategy of India and Pakistan. The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Sea King helicopters fitted with anti-ship missiles.
Naval aviation is an important part of the naval strategy of India and Pakistan. The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Sea King helicopters fitted with anti-ship missiles. It also acquired the US supplied P3C Orion with Harpoon missiles.

Although the Indian naval leadership had acknowledged the role of and the need for long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) aircraft as force multipliers, these platforms were late entrants in the Indian naval force structure. The current Indian LRMP inventory comprises of the Russian origin Tupolev-142 and Ilyushin-38, which have been upgraded; and a few Dornier aircraft. There have been attempts to fit missiles on some of these platforms with mixed results.

In 2009, India signed a contract worth US$ 3.9 billion with Boeing to supply 8 P-8 Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA). The first P-8I (I for the Indian variant) was handed over to the Indian navy in December 2012 and is currently undergoing trials and crew training. The balance seven aircraft will be delivered in 2013 (two) and 2015 (seven). India is the first international customer for the P-8, and the acquisition of the platform is a good example of the growing Indo-US naval cooperation.

The on-board equipment of the P-8I is similar to that of the P-8A of the US navy, but a number of equipment and sub-assemblies developed by Indian Defence Public Sector Undertaking (DPSU) and private companies have been fitted. The P-8I has a range of over 1200 nautical miles, is capable of in-flight refuelling, and can remain on task at a station for 4 hours. Its weapon suite includes the Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile, Mk-54 torpedoes, and depth charges.

The Harpoon missile is not new to the Indian sub-continent and therefore merits attention. In 2005, the US transferred nine P3C Orion aircraft and 60 Harpoon (40 air-launched and 20 ship launched) missiles to Pakistan. The total package - including a ‘close-in-weapon system’ was worth US$ 970 million. There were concerns among Indian naval planners, as the US had defended the sale of the hardware citing Pakistan’s legitimate self-defence capability.

In May 2011, two Pakistan navy P3C Orion aircraft were destroyed in a terrorist attack on PNS Mehran naval airbase in Karachi. During the 21st meeting of the US-Pakistan Defence Consultative Group (DCG) in December 2012, Pakistan had requested the US for replacements of the P3C Orion aircraft to make up for the losses and it was noted, “The provision of three or four more such aircraft would also help increase the counterterrorism capacity of Pakistani navy.”

The P-8I aircraft is designed for a number of roles and missions including surveillance, reconnaissance, detection, and prosecution of surface and subsurface targets at sea, imaging targets in the littorals, and search and rescue. The Arabian Sea is likely to be high on Indian navy’s deployment priorities where it must contend with the Pakistan navy.

The Pakistan navy has acquired Augusta 90 B submarines fitted with AIP system and there are plans to equip these platforms with Harpoon Block II missiles. Interestingly, the Pakistan naval leadership has noted that these submarines can be modified to deliver nuclear weapons. There have been speculations that Israel may have developed technological capability to miniaturise a nuclear warhead to be fitted on a Harpoon missile. Apparently, the US navy had spotted missiles being tested by an Israeli submarine in the Indian Ocean. It is quite unlikely that Pakistan has the technological knowhow to develop a miniaturised nuclear warhead of such sophistication unless it can obtain assistance from China, which has supported its nuclear weapons programme.

At another level, it is interesting that the Indian navy did not explore the possibility of equipping the P-8I with the Brahmos missile. There could have been at least two reasons: first, the Brahmos is a joint project of the Indian and Russian companies called Brahmos Aerospace, and there may be contractual limitations precluding its fitment on US origin platforms. Second, India has been attempting to diversify its military acquisitions to avoid overdependence on a single source; and in that context, the US naval hardware is a good alternative.

Finally, the P-8I is a significant addition to the Indian navy's armoury. It is a force multiplier and can significantly augment the maritime air surveillance, reconnaissance, and combat capabilities of the Indian navy. It would have to be cleverly deployed keeping in mind that the Pakistan navy is also equipped with Harpoon missiles and has a good knowledge of the missile’s technical parameters and exploitation doctrine. However, the P-8I is a technologically advanced platform as compared to the P3C Orion, and can offer technological edge over the Pakistan navy.
Defence News - Pakistan's P-3C vs. India's P-8I :: India, Pakistan and the Naval Balance
Unit cost

45,000,000–45,000,000 USD (2013)

201,400,000–275,700,000 USD
Engine type
Allison T56
CFM International CFM56
Wingspan
30 m
38 m
Length
36 m
39 m
Cruise speed
750 km/h
815 km/h
First flight
November 25, 1959
2009
Manufacturers
Lockheed Corporation
Lockheed Martin
Boeing Defense, Space & Security
Introduced
1962
2013


View attachment 112019 View attachment 112020
Yes..The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique in 1976...
But that clear edge was already covered.. Now we are a generation ahead( by the introduction of p8I in IN)and the gap is widening( both quantity and quality)..
 
.
Also, P3 has more on station time and range than the jet powered P8.


BTW, any Pakistani members here, I've noticed quite a few P3C flights passing over my house daily, in the morning and night time. One just buzzed as i type this. I live about 5 mins from the coast, in DHA Karachi.



Pakistan needs defense items for minimal deterrence. We have no threats from the western side or north. So it is geared to offer India a fight. P3Cs are more than enough for that role. Same thing with F-16s and JF-17s. We need capability that we can damage India enough that they think twice before any stupid move. 2001 and 2008 are a proof of that. Despite India having numerical superiority which it always had, no war or active confrontation took place. Now imagine if the same scenario was India vs China, India vs Bangladesh or India vs Srilanka.
Don't know why you guys think that when it should be quite obvious, but conventional forces of Pakistan DID NOT deter India, either in 02', 08' or even Kargil. Matter of fact, they have never done so. India has both, qualitative and quantitative edge over Pakistan. It is the threat of MAD and international pressure that got India to back off.
 
.
Don't know why you guys think that when it should be quite obvious, but conventional forces of Pakistan DID NOT deter India, either in 02', 08' or even Kargil. Matter of fact, they have never done so. India has both, qualitative and quantitative edge over Pakistan. It is the threat of MAD and international pressure that got India to back off.

Bla bla bla. A fake superpower got deterred by international pressure? LOL
Kargil? India deterred? Pakistan went all the way in India, killed hundreds, caught India off guard, lost none of it's own territory, while India ran out of it's 155mm shells, got two of it's migs shot down and called it a victory. Nice. Only India can do it.

Yea, the threat of MAD keeps the likes of your in your senses.
 
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