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Pakistan's Overbearing Army

Civilian Institutions are in Danger--Are There Solutions?

by Malou Innocent
From Global Education, Vol. 30 (3) - Fall 2008

Malou Innocent is a Foreign Policy Analyst at the Cato Institute. She writes on US foreign policy toward Pakistan, China, and the Middle East, and recently came back from a fact-finding trip in Pakistan.

Fifty years ago this October 24, Pakistan’s first Army Commander in Chief overthrew the prime minister, imposed martial law, and abrogated the constitution. That jarring rotation from civilian rule to martial law spawned five decades of overhauled constitutions, three protracted periods of martial law, and the overthrow of four civilian governments. In Crossed Swords: Pakistan, its Army, and the Wars Within, renowned Pakistan expert and former New York Times journalist Shuja Nawaz examines the tumultuous history of Pakistan’s overbearing army. Nawaz gives an insider’s analysis of Pakistan’s civil-military relationship, explaining how the country’s most powerful and well-organized institution shapes, reflects, and suffocates this nuclear-armed, Muslim-majority nation.

Crossed Swords begins with a detailed narration of the subcontinent’s pre-modern history, proceeding to its modern history, where the military has ruled Pakistan for 38 of its 61 years. Historically, most Pakistani army officers believed that coups were needed to rescue Pakistan from its incompetent civilian political class. Nawaz notes that prior to the 1958 coup, its leader, “‘[General Ayub Khan] stated that the Pakistan Army will not allow the politicians to get out of hand, and the same is true regarding the people of Pakistan.’ Ayub’s view was that it was ‘the army’s duty to protect the country.”

Over time, Nawaz argues, the army “has penetrated the civilian sector and now controls large segments of civil administration,” exhibiting the ability to act autonomously in foreign affairs, control domestic political activity, and operate independently of elected civilian leaders.

Nawaz writes that the military’s unfettered access to state resources has let it overpower private sector industries. The military’s intrusion into the government has allowed it to allocate more government revenue for its own institutional expansion, including the purchase of sophisticated military equipment, facilities, and training schools. The author argues that over the decades, this bloated bureaucracy diminished government spending on health, education, and basic infrastructure—sectors of civil society essential for internal development.

Crossed Swords candidly appraises the failures of the army leadership. According to Nawaz, despite the professionalism of its lower ranks, the army’s upper echelons are prone to blunder. He cites the genesis of the military’s ineptitude as Ayub Khan’s coup half a century ago and his “role in institutionalizing the appointment of sycophantic and sometimes incompetent officers to the highest ranks who would not buck the trend or question any of his actions.” Nawaz adds that the army’s emphasis on careerism, centralization, and lack of proper delegation of authority has bled into the daily operations of civilian and political institutions.

He shows that during the 1947 First Kashmir War with India, Pakistan’s aim was to internationalize the Kashmir dispute. Pakistani leaders thought that invading Kashmir would precipitate a UN-mandated ceasefire and bring about a plebiscite in Pakistan’s favor. But as Nawaz notes, “In retrospect, Pakistan’s higher planning and leadership failed to clearly see the advantage of intervening in Kashmir and to gauge the Indian reactions in a manner that they could counter effectively. A guerilla operation was launched without trained manpower to direct and control the tribals, and certainly without laying the ground for local support in the valley of Kashmir.”

Army leadership again proved unprepared during Pakistan’s 1965 war with India. Following the clashes and a formal ceasefire, Ayub Khan proceeded to implement Operation Gibraltar, another gamble to seize Kashmir. Like the 1947-48 war, Gibraltar was based on the idea of infiltrating trained guerrillas into Indian-held Kashmir to foment local unrest. But once again, the reaction of the local people was not adequately considered. Though the operation was supposed to be executed in coordination with the army high command, Nawaz argues, “Even senior officers at the army headquarters were kept in the dark, as were the formation commanders. No prior ground work had been done with Kashmiri leaders in Indian-held Kashmir.”

Although Pakistan killed a great number of Indian troops and displayed a valiant defense of Punjab, military planners left their country’s entire frontier of East Pakistan exposed and “yet again, there appeared to be no attempt to draw their air force or the navy into the strategic planning for the impending war.”

Nawaz also offers a variety of insights about contemporary Pakistani politics. For instance, while policymakers in Washington have recently been accusing the largest Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), of acting independently of Islamabad, Nawaz argues that this is a result of misdirection. Pakistan’s leadership blames its illegal or unpopular policies on “independent” agents of the ISI, he says.

He also notes that beginning this autumn, a conservative element within the army, known as “Zia Bharti,” or “Zia’s Recruits,” is due to take over many senior leadership positions as promotions occur. Encouraged by jihadist General Mohammad Zia ul Haq during the 1980s, many young Islamists are today reaching the pinnacle of their careers. This group may be disinclined to aid Americans: its members were deprived of advanced overseas military training at elite US institutions after Washington instituted sanctions following the discovery of Pakistan’s covert nuclear program.

Crossed Swords also offers recommendations on ways to scale-back the army’s creeping “Bonapartism.” One way presented is forcing military and ISI officials to testify before parliament. Nawaz also recommends that Pakistan’s regional commanders all be four-star generals and appointed by the same authority that currently appoints the Chief of Army Staff and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. This would distribute power among regional commanders and reduce the power of Chief of Army Staff. In addition, Nawaz insists that the army reexamine its expansive benefits such as its lifelong system of healthcare, especially in a country that “does not reward its civil servants well nor its educationists.” He also recommends that ISI personnel begin respecting legal norms and begin reprimanding cases of misconduct, such as random cases of vigilantism and incidents of autonomous handling of foreign relations.

While his recommendations are unique and tightly-focused, it remains to be seen why the military—taken strictly as a bureaucratic entity—would forfeit its institutional power to civilian leaders for which they have “an underlying disdain.” For instance, Pakistan scholar Ahmed Rashid accounts that ISI’s investigative arm, the National Accountability Bureau, allegedly compiled dossiers on the finances of the country’s politicians to pressure them into supporting technocrats sponsored by military-backed parties. Given the military and ISI’s pervasive grip, it remains unclear why they would willfully diminish their institutional power or whether Pakistan’s civilian rulers could force them to do so.


Nawaz sees the army’s next challenge in dealing with the low-intensity guerilla insurgency in its western tribal region, which the army is presently ill-equipped and untrained to fight. The author insists that in order to combat internal insurgencies and to deter conventional threats from India, Afghanistan, and Iran, the army must re-orient its force structure. “[T]o be truly effective, the army needs to be radically transformed into a leaner and highly mobile force, not the lumbering giant that it is today.”

His concern is well-placed. As often happens with conventional militaries, Pakistan’s army has suffered severe losses at the hands of elusive and adaptive militants. Since joining the so-called “war on terror,” their army has lost nearly 1,400 soldiers in clashes with insurgents. One soldier told the BBC, “This is a country where soldiers are slaughtered…Their bodies may be found, but not their heads.” In August 2007, Baitullah Mehsud, commander of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan and the alleged mastermind behind the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, captured over 200 Pakistani troops who offered little to no resistance. Some officers admit morale has not been this low since the army failed to stop East Pakistan’s secession in 1971.

Reshaping the Pakistani army’s cumbersome conventional force structure for more adaptive military campaigns may be a step in the right direction. But there exists concern that nimbler forces might be inadequate for conventional warfighting. A similar a debate is brewing over the US Army’s organizing principle: whether to focus future operations toward Iraq-style counterinsurgencies or on force-on-force conventional warfare maneuver. Military analysts caution that the US Army’s present infatuation with stability operations and nation building will erode its capacity for conventional warfighting. For Pakistan, a greater emphasis on a lighter force could leave it vulnerable to invasions by India, large-scale internal subversions, or political destabilization caused by economic problems.

In the end, Nawaz argues that Pakistan’s best defense against political and military implosion “lies in creating a powerful, pluralistic polity residing in a strong economy, built on a society that values education and the welfare of its population.” According to Nawaz, that requires a restoration of the balance between the army and civilians.
 
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In the end, Nawaz argues that Pakistan’s best defense against political and military implosion “lies in creating a powerful, pluralistic polity residing in a strong economy, built on a society that values education and the welfare of its population.” According to Nawaz, that requires a restoration of the balance between the army and civilians.

It is exactly what we have done and in the last 8 months have lost major chunk of our FOREX reserves & are weak at the core whiel facing India.

He also notes that beginning this autumn, a conservative element within the army, known as “Zia Bharti,” or “Zia’s Recruits,” is due to take over many senior leadership positions as promotions occur. Encouraged by jihadist General Mohammad Zia ul Haq during the 1980s, many young Islamists are today reaching the pinnacle of their careers. This group may be disinclined to aid Americans: its members were deprived of advanced overseas military training at elite US institutions after Washington instituted sanctions following the discovery of Pakistan’s covert nuclear program.

I think that's the major concern of US & it's think tank that with age those military officers would be taking up important positions in Pakistan, who have served US interested in Afghanistan with blood & sweat and has seen how US / West used them & left them like a used condom without any support. If that was not enough they were sanctioned & our arch enemy elevated to "preferred friend" status and this will leve many people sleepless in seattle !! hahah ..

Well .. welcome to "what you sow is what you reap" !
 
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I'd rather have the Zia-group if they plan on standing up against American aggression and restore Pakistani sovereignty. However the new group of generals must also equalize the social treatment of officers, jawans and generals onto a single standard...hence all have opportunity and support.

I also support the push to greater mobility and superior training...we need to focus on our air force and navy...as well as logistical support & inter-service communication.

Personally I think the future Pakistan Army should be reduced to 250 000 regulars...all very well trained, fully equipped and capable of handling all situations - ranging from conventional war-fighting to counter-insurgency to peace-keeping/occupation.

If a full war with India or anyone does occur, we should have a system of mandatory conscription or war-time reserves. This "reserve" can be produced during peace-time by selecting healthy men and putting them through a paid 8-month training program; and a 1 month per year "exercise" program for a certain number of years. Equipment for another 250 000 can be prepared and kept in storage until a war occurs. Exercise can be kept in rotation so that we maintain a total of 300 000 troops at any given period. This may also be a cheaper option in the future as we maintain less troops per year.

Ultimately we must rely on our Imaan and not worry too much about numbers when we can focus on quality, training and technological progression...a lethal combination. Internal divisions are caused by ideological rifts caused by nationalism, ethnocentrism or super-ficial thinking...we need to get beyond that. We must accept that Pakistan was built on Islam and for Islam...and then move forward to developing a nimble but devastating military force.
 
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Nawaz writes that the military’s unfettered access to state resources has let it overpower private sector industries.
Bullsh!t!!!:rofl: there was no private sector to begin with, Bhutto wiped all of that out with his nationalization campaign and destroyed Pakistan's industrial backbone! the only significant enterprises/companies to exist in Pakistan today, are either state-owned, army-owned, or chinese.

While his recommendations are unique and tightly-focused, it remains to be seen why the military—taken strictly as a bureaucratic entity—would forfeit its institutional power to civilian leaders for which they have “an underlying disdain.” For instance, Pakistan scholar Ahmed Rashid accounts that ISI’s investigative arm, the National Accountability Bureau, allegedly compiled dossiers on the finances of the country’s politicians to pressure them into supporting technocrats sponsored by military-backed parties. Given the military and ISI’s pervasive grip, it remains unclear why they would willfully diminish their institutional power or whether Pakistan’s civilian rulers could force them to do so.


Nawaz sees the army’s next challenge in dealing with the low-intensity guerilla insurgency in its western tribal region, which the army is presently ill-equipped and untrained to fight. The author insists that in order to combat internal insurgencies and to deter conventional threats from India, Afghanistan, and Iran, the army must re-orient its force structure. “[T]o be truly effective, the army needs to be radically transformed into a leaner and highly mobile force, not the lumbering giant that it is today.”

His concern is well-placed. As often happens with conventional militaries, Pakistan’s army has suffered severe losses at the hands of elusive and adaptive militants. Since joining the so-called “war on terror,” their army has lost nearly 1,400 soldiers in clashes with insurgents. One soldier told the BBC, “This is a country where soldiers are slaughtered…Their bodies may be found, but not their heads.” In August 2007, Baitullah Mehsud, commander of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan and the alleged mastermind behind the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, captured over 200 Pakistani troops who offered little to no resistance. Some officers admit morale has not been this low since the army failed to stop East Pakistan’s secession in 1971.

Reshaping the Pakistani army’s cumbersome conventional force structure for more adaptive military campaigns may be a step in the right direction. But there exists concern that nimbler forces might be inadequate for conventional warfighting. A similar a debate is brewing over the US Army’s organizing principle: whether to focus future operations toward Iraq-style counterinsurgencies or on force-on-force conventional warfare maneuver. Military analysts caution that the US Army’s present infatuation with stability operations and nation building will erode its capacity for conventional warfighting. For Pakistan, a greater emphasis on a lighter force could leave it vulnerable to invasions by India, large-scale internal subversions, or political destabilization caused by economic problems.
wasn't this, Nawaz guy, along with Ahmed Rashid appointed as advisors? if so, then that pretty much sums up what the US policy towards Pakistan will be. After all, Shuja Nawaz writes this crap, and Ahmed Rashid is staunch critic of the ISI and publicly was ready to commit treason. Who are these people, sitting in the US cabinet, drawing up plans on how the army should be controlled like a dog?

he probably thinks he has divine writ over the world now that he's a part of US policy. this falls exactly into the policy of "cutting" down on pakistan's army, and turning it into a counter-insurgency force incapable of fighting india.

Shuja Nawaz's brother, who was in the army, was killed. he takes it out on the entire army by propaganda. Now he will take it out on them through US policy. Ahmed Rashid, a staunch ISI critic and always maintains an anti-army posture. wonder why, Gen Petraeus would specifically appoint them as advisors?
 
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Pakistan's Overbearing Army

While his recommendations are unique and tightly-focused, it remains to be seen why the military—taken strictly as a bureaucratic entity—would forfeit its institutional power to civilian leaders for which they have “an underlying disdain.” For instance, Pakistan scholar Ahmed Rashid accounts that ISI’s investigative arm, the National Accountability Bureau, allegedly compiled dossiers on the finances of the country’s politicians to pressure them into supporting technocrats sponsored by military-backed parties. Given the military and ISI’s pervasive grip, it remains unclear why they would willfully diminish their institutional power or whether Pakistan’s civilian rulers could force them to do so.

[/B]

IMO the suggestions regarding civilian institutional power are easy to make, but are impractical for Pakistan in the near- and medium- term. Why? Look at the pathetic level of governance all across South Asia: India, SL, BD included. South-Asian governments are probably only just better than African governments when it comes to accountability, misuse of public funds, general lethargy and utter indifference towards the people who elected them.

In India, we have had 50+ years of almost continuous democracy, but there have been times when, inspite of my Western education and exposure, I've just wished a General stepped in and kicked the dumba**es out. I've admired China for the focus due to its single party model, and the US for its unique Presidential form of system where the President can appoint the best to his cabinet without them standing for elections.
No wonder we look up to the Army. They are ready to die for the country, are disciplined, perceived as squeaky clean, the very antithesis of politicians. Notice the mass protests after Mumbai attacks against politicians for being responsible for systemic failure at all levels.

Now lets look at Pakistan. The current civilian government is so clueless that it is apparent in TV interviews. Public gaffes are committed when leaders announce something and retract it hours (e.g. ISI under Interior Min, India visit of ISI chief). Pres Zardari is not exactly known for his clean track-record. How can the population and Army trust these guys? It will take years for Pakistan's politicians to earn the respect of their people and their Army. And the instability in the region will simply delay the process further. After 50 years of democracy, India has still not got it right, Pakistan has yet to begin the process!:tsk:
 
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Pakistan's Overbearing Army

Civilian Institutions are in Danger--Are There Solutions?

by Malou Innocent
From Global Education, Vol. 30 (3) - Fall 2008

Malou Innocent is a Foreign Policy Analyst at the Cato Institute. She writes on US foreign policy toward Pakistan, China, and the Middle East, and recently came back from a fact-finding trip in Pakistan.

Fifty years ago this October 24, Pakistan’s first Army Commander in Chief overthrew the prime minister, imposed martial law, and abrogated the constitution. That jarring rotation from civilian rule to martial law spawned five decades of overhauled constitutions, three protracted periods of martial law, and the overthrow of four civilian governments. In Crossed Swords: Pakistan, its Army, and the Wars Within, renowned Pakistan expert and former New York Times journalist Shuja Nawaz examines the tumultuous history of Pakistan’s overbearing army. Nawaz gives an insider’s analysis of Pakistan’s civil-military relationship, explaining how the country’s most powerful and well-organized institution shapes, reflects, and suffocates this nuclear-armed, Muslim-majority nation.

Crossed Swords begins with a detailed narration of the subcontinent’s pre-modern history, proceeding to its modern history, where the military has ruled Pakistan for 38 of its 61 years. Historically, most Pakistani army officers believed that coups were needed to rescue Pakistan from its incompetent civilian political class. Nawaz notes that prior to the 1958 coup, its leader, “‘[General Ayub Khan] stated that the Pakistan Army will not allow the politicians to get out of hand, and the same is true regarding the people of Pakistan.’ Ayub’s view was that it was ‘the army’s duty to protect the country.”

Over time, Nawaz argues, the army “has penetrated the civilian sector and now controls large segments of civil administration,” exhibiting the ability to act autonomously in foreign affairs, control domestic political activity, and operate independently of elected civilian leaders.

Nawaz writes that the military’s unfettered access to state resources has let it overpower private sector industries. The military’s intrusion into the government has allowed it to allocate more government revenue for its own institutional expansion, including the purchase of sophisticated military equipment, facilities, and training schools. The author argues that over the decades, this bloated bureaucracy diminished government spending on health, education, and basic infrastructure—sectors of civil society essential for internal development.

Crossed Swords candidly appraises the failures of the army leadership. According to Nawaz, despite the professionalism of its lower ranks, the army’s upper echelons are prone to blunder. He cites the genesis of the military’s ineptitude as Ayub Khan’s coup half a century ago and his “role in institutionalizing the appointment of sycophantic and sometimes incompetent officers to the highest ranks who would not buck the trend or question any of his actions.” Nawaz adds that the army’s emphasis on careerism, centralization, and lack of proper delegation of authority has bled into the daily operations of civilian and political institutions.

He shows that during the 1947 First Kashmir War with India, Pakistan’s aim was to internationalize the Kashmir dispute. Pakistani leaders thought that invading Kashmir would precipitate a UN-mandated ceasefire and bring about a plebiscite in Pakistan’s favor. But as Nawaz notes, “In retrospect, Pakistan’s higher planning and leadership failed to clearly see the advantage of intervening in Kashmir and to gauge the Indian reactions in a manner that they could counter effectively. A guerilla operation was launched without trained manpower to direct and control the tribals, and certainly without laying the ground for local support in the valley of Kashmir.”

Army leadership again proved unprepared during Pakistan’s 1965 war with India. Following the clashes and a formal ceasefire, Ayub Khan proceeded to implement Operation Gibraltar, another gamble to seize Kashmir. Like the 1947-48 war, Gibraltar was based on the idea of infiltrating trained guerrillas into Indian-held Kashmir to foment local unrest. But once again, the reaction of the local people was not adequately considered. Though the operation was supposed to be executed in coordination with the army high command, Nawaz argues, “Even senior officers at the army headquarters were kept in the dark, as were the formation commanders. No prior ground work had been done with Kashmiri leaders in Indian-held Kashmir.”

Although Pakistan killed a great number of Indian troops and displayed a valiant defense of Punjab, military planners left their country’s entire frontier of East Pakistan exposed and “yet again, there appeared to be no attempt to draw their air force or the navy into the strategic planning for the impending war.”

Nawaz also offers a variety of insights about contemporary Pakistani politics. For instance, while policymakers in Washington have recently been accusing the largest Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), of acting independently of Islamabad, Nawaz argues that this is a result of misdirection. Pakistan’s leadership blames its illegal or unpopular policies on “independent” agents of the ISI, he says.

He also notes that beginning this autumn, a conservative element within the army, known as “Zia Bharti,” or “Zia’s Recruits,” is due to take over many senior leadership positions as promotions occur. Encouraged by jihadist General Mohammad Zia ul Haq during the 1980s, many young Islamists are today reaching the pinnacle of their careers. This group may be disinclined to aid Americans: its members were deprived of advanced overseas military training at elite US institutions after Washington instituted sanctions following the discovery of Pakistan’s covert nuclear program.

Crossed Swords also offers recommendations on ways to scale-back the army’s creeping “Bonapartism.” One way presented is forcing military and ISI officials to testify before parliament. Nawaz also recommends that Pakistan’s regional commanders all be four-star generals and appointed by the same authority that currently appoints the Chief of Army Staff and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. This would distribute power among regional commanders and reduce the power of Chief of Army Staff. In addition, Nawaz insists that the army reexamine its expansive benefits such as its lifelong system of healthcare, especially in a country that “does not reward its civil servants well nor its educationists.” He also recommends that ISI personnel begin respecting legal norms and begin reprimanding cases of misconduct, such as random cases of vigilantism and incidents of autonomous handling of foreign relations.

While his recommendations are unique and tightly-focused, it remains to be seen why the military—taken strictly as a bureaucratic entity—would forfeit its institutional power to civilian leaders for which they have “an underlying disdain.” For instance, Pakistan scholar Ahmed Rashid accounts that ISI’s investigative arm, the National Accountability Bureau, allegedly compiled dossiers on the finances of the country’s politicians to pressure them into supporting technocrats sponsored by military-backed parties. Given the military and ISI’s pervasive grip, it remains unclear why they would willfully diminish their institutional power or whether Pakistan’s civilian rulers could force them to do so.


Nawaz sees the army’s next challenge in dealing with the low-intensity guerilla insurgency in its western tribal region, which the army is presently ill-equipped and untrained to fight. The author insists that in order to combat internal insurgencies and to deter conventional threats from India, Afghanistan, and Iran, the army must re-orient its force structure. “[T]o be truly effective, the army needs to be radically transformed into a leaner and highly mobile force, not the lumbering giant that it is today.”

His concern is well-placed. As often happens with conventional militaries, Pakistan’s army has suffered severe losses at the hands of elusive and adaptive militants. Since joining the so-called “war on terror,” their army has lost nearly 1,400 soldiers in clashes with insurgents. One soldier told the BBC, “This is a country where soldiers are slaughtered…Their bodies may be found, but not their heads.” In August 2007, Baitullah Mehsud, commander of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan and the alleged mastermind behind the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, captured over 200 Pakistani troops who offered little to no resistance. Some officers admit morale has not been this low since the army failed to stop East Pakistan’s secession in 1971.

Reshaping the Pakistani army’s cumbersome conventional force structure for more adaptive military campaigns may be a step in the right direction. But there exists concern that nimbler forces might be inadequate for conventional warfighting. A similar a debate is brewing over the US Army’s organizing principle: whether to focus future operations toward Iraq-style counterinsurgencies or on force-on-force conventional warfare maneuver. Military analysts caution that the US Army’s present infatuation with stability operations and nation building will erode its capacity for conventional warfighting. For Pakistan, a greater emphasis on a lighter force could leave it vulnerable to invasions by India, large-scale internal subversions, or political destabilization caused by economic problems.

In the end, Nawaz argues that Pakistan’s best defense against political and military implosion “lies in creating a powerful, pluralistic polity residing in a strong economy, built on a society that values education and the welfare of its population.” According to Nawaz, that requires a restoration of the balance between the army and civilians.

After reading brief history of Pakistan politics, why have a democracy in Pakistan at all. It is very clear, that the step taken by any politicians depends upon military likes and dislikes. Let the military just form a new party and rule Pakistan, that would be more effective then the current quagemire that it running at.
 
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A single party system similar to Cold War era South Korea and Singapore would be nice, but certainly not the best solution for Pakistan. As Muslims it is our duty to re-establish the Caliphate, and Shariah at the grand scale - i.e. politics, economy & ethics - is vital. The issue I find with Pakistanis is that they want to cast a vote, but do not want to deal with the consequences of poor legislation. Islamic Law will relieve that issue, and the people may still elect their leaders...the rulers will literally be subject to following the law.
 
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^^ Wishful thinking.
Don't worry about it, enjoy the break...

There have been only 1 hard instance prior to this era that there was no Islamic Caliphate; when the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him was still in Makkah. This era is simply a blip in history and not part of the norm of having an Islamic Caliphate...which through several seats took up 1400 years and a huge portion of Muslim history.

Now we can argue other issues...I don't need to bring up prophecies and what not, it wouldn't matter to you anyways. For it to be of hard substance, we'll need to logically argue that God exists and that Islam is the right religion. To be frank, for people who sleep with the times, regardless of its merits and ills, this would be an irrelevent discussion.

So you keep on your occupation, and we'll let time reveal itself.
 
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wasn't this, Nawaz guy, along with Ahmed Rashid appointed as advisors? if so, then that pretty much sums up what the US policy towards Pakistan will be. After all, Shuja Nawaz writes this crap, and Ahmed Rashid is staunch critic of the ISI and publicly was ready to commit treason. Who are these people, sitting in the US cabinet, drawing up plans on how the army should be controlled like a dog?

Shuja Nawaz's brother, who was in the army, was killed. he takes it out on the entire army by propaganda. Now he will take it out on them through US policy. Ahmed Rashid, a staunch ISI critic and always maintains an anti-army posture. wonder why, Gen Petraeus would specifically appoint them as advisors?

Assad,

I have Shuja's book. Its a very decent work and is not just all critique. The book is balanced. It talks about areas in which the Army can improve. It also does not take everything that Ayesha Siddiqa dished out at face value. There is a lot of research on the background as to why Army went into some of these ventures and why they are good for the Army and why bad.

Overall its a good book. Ahmed Rashid for me personally has lost all credibility. It seems he likes to write things to earn a paycheck from the highest bidder. I have yet to see anything serious come from him aside from his usual cry wolf rants every other month. The reaction is "yawn, tell me something new".

Having Shuja Nawaz on a US board is a good thing for Pakistan and the Pakistan Army. He is absolutely supportive of allowing Pakistan to maintain a credible deterrence against India. Overall he is a credible but an independent voice for the Pakistani security establishment.
 
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Personally I think the future Pakistan Army should be reduced to 250 000 regulars...all very well trained, fully equipped and capable of handling all situations - ranging from conventional war-fighting to counter-insurgency to peace-keeping/occupation.

i would definately support this without the Zia-ist element since i have "lived" that culture!
 
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Assad,

I have Shuja's book. Its a very decent work and is not just all critique. The book is balanced. It talks about areas in which the Army can improve. It also does not take everything that Ayesha Siddiqa dished out at face value. There is a lot of research on the background as to why Army went into some of these ventures and why they are good for the Army and why bad.

Overall its a good book. Ahmed Rashid for me personally has lost all credibility. It seems he likes to write things to earn a paycheck from the highest bidder. I have yet to see anything serious come from him aside from his usual cry wolf rants every other month. The reaction is "yawn, tell me something new".

Having Shuja Nawaz on a US board is a good thing for Pakistan and the Pakistan Army. He is absolutely supportive of allowing Pakistan to maintain a credible deterrence against India. Overall he is a credible but an independent voice for the Pakistani security establishment.
I sit corrected. That may be so, however, their advice to the US administration regarding Pakistan, is to "console any insecurities vis-à-vis india through kashmir". we both know nothing will come out of this except lip service. india will still be given a free hand to do whatever it wants in afghanistan, thus the saga will continue.

as for Ahmed Rashid, I know you'll enjoy this
 
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This era is simply a blip in history and not part of the norm

Yes, I know there has been a nominal Caliphate till the end of the WW-1. I also know that many within the Islamic world accorded no consequence to that including the Mughals in India (not sure if they paid token obeisance) and I am sure the same was true for the Muslims of SE Asia (Indonesia specifically). So that takes care of the vast majority of the world's Muslims.

There is enough literature on the characters of the Turkish Sultans who became Caliphs including their mental state, their drinking binges, their being locked away in walled rooms for years and years as princes because of the threat of them assassinating the Sultan if they were let loose. I can go on....

The mere presence of Caliphate should not be enough I would guess. We have to see how it performed. When Muslims themselves claim that the ideal Islamic rule lasted no more than 40 years and Shias would raise a doubt about most of that 40 years, what are we talking of!
 
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Personally I think the future Pakistan Army should be reduced to 250 000 regulars...all very well trained, fully equipped and capable of handling all situations - ranging from conventional war-fighting to counter-insurgency to peace-keeping/occupation.

i would definately support this without the Zia-ist element since i have "lived" that culture!
Thing is...Zia himself was from that old culture which gave birth to those who carried out 1971 and in some form supported the Waderas. Post-Zia elements I think are a lot more rational, I know a few who have been huge proponents of indigenous defence, not towing foreign lines as well as maintaining a strong but coherent counterinsurgency.
 
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