Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions

[Super Falcon]

Being a nuke armed country we wasted lot of time

 

[Basel]

Pakistan should develop/acquire SSKs like Israeli latest Dolphins class subs and then go for SSGNs which could also be used to launch JL-2 class missile if needed.

For all those who think that PN will not need SSBN/SSGN/SSN they should know that this time IN will have to stay away from coast line of Pakistan as PN have good firepower to hit them at long distances from coastal batteries, can go after them with SSKs, MPAs, Ships etc.

That is why IN will try to enforce blockade near Gulf of Aden which is far away from Pakistani coast and PN have to come out far for the fight where as per current status will favor IN. and IN will also try to blockade Strait of Hormuz which is near Gawadar, this will divide PN & PAFs assets which are already little in numbers therefore PN will need a force of SSKs and SSGN to put pressure on IN because SSGN can roam around Indian coastline and hit targets with 2500km range CMs in conventional war and run away far n deep in ocean to avoid so called mighty IN.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

You are quoting my post out of context Sir. Yes they are building new SSNs but who is doing it and for what political objective?

First & foremost is the cost of building/acquiring a nuclear submarine. Second being what are going to do with it?

Answer to the first is simple, Pakistan Navy in particular is cash starved and Pakistan can easily buy up to 3 or even more conventional subs at the cost of one nuclear submarine. Hence it does not make economic sense.

Second is the utilization of such an expensive asset. Global powers such as US, Russia & China need to exert power far beyond their shores. Submarine is a stealth weapon and its mission success demands that it remains undetected.
Chinese or Russian subs need to lurk near US shores to be effective, thus need to traverse very long distances without being detected and quickly.

Main shortcoming of an SSK compared to SSN is the size which in turns limits its weapon load and stores carrying capacity; thus shorter endurance. SSN can maintain higher speeds longer, quickly reaching the target and also get away from danger.

Longer endurance also requires more staff. Even a small SSK such as Augusta 90B with a complement of about 40 would require a lot of food if it were to remain at sea for a couple of months without resupply.

In Indian/ Pakistan scenario, distances are not that much. Hence in our case as long the submarine is very quiet and can remain under the surface for a couple of weeks or more, it would be sufficient to meet theatre requirements. For example at 10 knots submerged, an SSK based at Karachi can reach Visakhaptnam, HQ Eastern Command of IN, in about 10 -11 days. This means about 3 weeks under water endurance is enough. Thus a German 214 with max speed of 20 knots submerged; if modified to fire cruise missile would fulfill all of Pakistan Navy needs.

I have to admit that I have been reading about SSN versus modern SSK’s for quite a few years. Each arguably has advantages over the other depending upon the naval objectives. This discussion here is in the context of need for Pakistan for an SSN. I stand by my contention that there is none.

Submarine noise is very relative subject. The noise depends on ambient noise, and sound propagation characteristics of the AOO. With the littoral and coastal waters of of the Indian Ocean being unique in their propagation characteristics, characterising submarine noise in dBs as good or bad is really irrelevant. Many in the field know how notorious our Diesel Electrics are in shallow waters, and they are virally undetectable, as demonstrated to USN many times.

 

[Blue Marlin]

according to general kidwai he said Pakistan is not developing nuclear subs. but the will follow a Israel styled approach by nuclear arming a conventional sub via cruise missile and launched via torpedo tube. this i think is a good idea as nuclear subs are very expensive to run and maintain. and also aip sub are more stealthier than nuclear, as nuclear sub have to have large pumps to cool the reactor. stick to aip subs and develop them to a high standard. then build a nuclear subs. i read that pak has developed a nuclear propulsion module for subs. it would be quite easy to attach this model on to a s20. but i doubt this will happen.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

To learn about sub warfare---people need to read up on some good works of fiction----.

The thing is that the diesel subs have predictability of where they will be. It is a known that when they launch----then with their average speed it is very well know the radius of area that it can reach---it can also be calculated that in the area that it will pop up----it is also known that the where about of it to come up to breath---then it needs to refuel as well after sometime.

The best thing these subs do is to lie in wait if someone is coming your way----pop up---let go and disappear.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

To learn about sub warfare---people need to read up on some good works of fiction----.

The thing is that the diesel subs have predictability of where they will be. It is a known that when they launch----then with their average speed it is very well know the radius of area that it can reach---it can also be calculated that in the area that it will pop up----it is also known that the where about of it to come up to breath---then it needs to refuel as well after sometime.

The best thing these subs do is to lie in wait if someone is coming your way----pop up---let go and disappear.

The sea is a very big place to worry about "predictability". Till now, we have a covert doctrine and coastal defense role. As we move into "second strike" capability, Subs with longer submerged ranges become relevant.

 

[MastanKhan]

The sea is a very big place to worry about "predictability". Till now, we have a covert doctrine and coastal defense role. As we move into "second strike" capability, Subs with longer submerged ranges become relevant.

Hi,

No---it is not sir-----and your ccomments are in error. Even submarines travel thru mapped areas----they simply just don't dive underwater and chose whatever direction they want to.

There are underwater routes, roads and highways-----.

Don't wing it please.

 

[Caprxl]

Hi,

To learn about sub warfare---people need to read up on some good works of fiction----.

Sir,
Could you recommend something ? To read or watch ?

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
Could you recommend something ? To read or watch ?

Hi,

If you have not read it---then start with the book--- The Hunt for Red October ----by Tom Clancy.

If you can get your hands on Joe Buff's works of fiction---that is entertaining. He has aronund 4 or 5 books on latest sub warfare---.

There are so many others---I have not kept a track of them.

In one of these works of fiction---not too long ago----I read that the newest U S submarine literally has the technology to practically see outside of the submarine when it is under water on a flat panel TV screen.

Let me put it to you this way-----whatever I had read in these works of fiction 20-30 years ago---is coming true in this day and age.

 

[Caprxl]

Hi,

If you have not read it---then start with the book--- The Hunt for Red October ----by Tom Clancy.

If you can get your hands on Joe Buff's works of fiction---that is entertaining. He has aronund 4 or 5 books on latest sub warfare---.

There are so many others---I have not kept a track of them.

In one of these works of fiction---not too long ago----I read that the newest U S submarine literally has the technology to practically see outside of the submarine when it is under water on a flat panel TV screen.

Let me put it to you this way-----whatever I had read in these works of fiction 20-30 years ago---is coming true in this day and age.

Yes I have watched the movie --The Hunt for Red October -- but will go for the book for sure as it's a whole new experience n a lot to learn. Will also read Joe Buff.
I am seeing it this way that the gadgets mentioned by Ian Fleming in Bond series decades ago are now a reality. Same analogy would go for subs I guess as you mentioned.
Thnx. Much appreciated.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes I have watched the movie --The Hunt for Red October -- but will go for the book for sure as it's a whole new experience n a lot to learn. Will also read Joe Buff.
I am seeing it this way that the gadgets mentioned by Ian Fleming in Bond series decades ago are now a reality. Same analogy would go for subs I guess as you mentioned.
Thnx. Much appreciated.

Hi,

When you read hunt for red October----just clear your mind of any technical clutter---just imagine yourself living in a world where there was no concept of cell phones---lap tops desk tops etc etc etc----

 

[Caprxl]

Hi,

When you read hunt for red October----just clear your mind of any technical clutter---just imagine yourself living in a world where there was no concept of cell phones---lap tops desk tops etc etc etc----

Sure sir , I got your point
I do understand the era in which it was conceived and only true enjoyment of reading it would be as you told-- will definitely keep ur advice in mind.

 

[sohail.ishaque]

I somewhere read that UAVs are also being used on Subs now by some countries... i tried to google it but found nothing.. can u plz share some knowledge regarding this.. as is it possible for UAVs to b used on subs and if yes, whats there mission could be and if PN can also capable of it or not ??

Hi,

To learn about sub warfare---people need to read up on some good works of fiction----.

The thing is that the diesel subs have predictability of where they will be. It is a known that when they launch----then with their average speed it is very well know the radius of area that it can reach---it can also be calculated that in the area that it will pop up----it is also known that the where about of it to come up to breath---then it needs to refuel as well after sometime.

The best thing these subs do is to lie in wait if someone is coming your way----pop up---let go and disappear.

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

If you have not read it---then start with the book--- The Hunt for Red October ----by Tom Clancy.

If you can get your hands on Joe Buff's works of fiction---that is entertaining. He has aronund 4 or 5 books on latest sub warfare---.

There are so many others---I have not kept a track of them.

In one of these works of fiction---not too long ago----I read that the newest U S submarine literally has the technology to practically see outside of the submarine when it is under water on a flat panel TV screen.

Let me put it to you this way-----whatever I had read in these works of fiction 20-30 years ago---is coming true in this day and age.

What I know is Pakistan is in advance talks with China for two nuclear Submarines and even bigger news is that these two sub's will have Pakistani nuclear system in it

 

[niaz]

What I know is Pakistan is in advance talks with China for two nuclear Submarines and even bigger news is that these two sub's will have Pakistani nuclear system in it

To the best of my knowledge Pakistan does not possess technical know-how to design & build completely indigenous nuclear power reactor. Pakistan’s reactors have been designed & manufactured abroad and installed in Pakistan.

Understand Plutonium manufacturing Heavy Water reactors at Khushab even though constructed by PAEC, had lot of technical input from China. The latest ACP-1000 Pressurized Water reactors are of also Chinese make. The manufacturer is China national nuclear Corporation and the subcontractor is China Zhongyuan Engineering Company.

Nuclear submarines are mostly powered by ‘long lived core’ pressurized water reactor. French Rubis class submarines power unit needs no refuelling for 30 years. The propulsion system also needs to be 'Quite' (not very noisy).

Miniaturization of nuclear reactor to fit in a submarine and which does not need refuelling for 10 years or more is arguably beyond Pakistan’s capability

Pakistan may lease or purchase nuclear submarines but saying that these would have Pakistan’s nuclear systems; that is, Pakistani designed & manufactured nuclear propulsion system is hard to accept.