Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.

Pashto is a language hardly anyone can speak in Pakistan.

It is Urdu and English that truly matters.

By the way Pashto is a worthless language, and everyone in Pakistan should speak Urdu.

There are nearly triple the amount of native Pashto speakers compared to native Urdu speakers.

Urdu is a Hindustani language developed in North India, it was roughly alien to Pakistan until the British introduced it in the 1880's under a process to amalgamate their newly conquered but linguistically diverse subjects.

Pashto on the other hand is a native language with a deep and rich history that is interwoven with this land.

English and Urdu serve their purpose as a lingua franca, leave it at that. But to insult one's mother tongue in favor of languages that were enforced onto us by a foreigner's sword is a sad and embarrassing level of self-loathing.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

A lot of Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani ones to be "desified", but even then you sound like a textbook larper. Unless you are an Islamist who doesn't care about ethnicity and puts religion over all.

The world is a crazy place, I used to get called "Gul Khan" by Afghans and now my fellow Pakistanis think I am some hidden Indo-Afghan terrorist sympathizer

There are nearly triple the amount of native Pashto speakers compared to native Urdu speakers.

Urdu is a Hindustani language developed in North India, it was roughly alien to Pakistan until the British introduced it in the 1880's under a process to amalgamate their newly conquered but linguistically diverse subjects.

Pashto on the other hand is a native language with a deep and rich history that is interwoven with this land.

English and Urdu serve their purpose as a lingua franca, leave it at that. But to insult one's mother tongue in favor of languages that were enforced onto us by a foreigner's sword is a sad and embarrassing level of self-loathing.

He is not Pashtun LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

In Pashtunwali your tribe comes from your dad's side not your mom's side and you aren't seen as a real Pashtun if you can't speak Pashto as @TNT said.

He calls Pashto a useless language but desperately tries to cling to the "pAtHaN" label.

Extreme inferiority complex.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

Every illegal immigrant is also a stark reminder of your own shortcomings and failures while, at the same time, you're forced to face this hurting reality.

I understand that this can be emotionally burdening. All I can say is that we shouldn't underestimate this topic as a potential source of hazard, but it is not a breaking point of our relationship.

Also because the culture promotes a weird fetishizing of Turkish women which people in Pakistan actually believe if they go to Turkey they will find a Haleema for themselves. And lets not forget about this really weird and disturbing action that is being promoted by a news channel as a "love story"

 

[Ssan]

The point of Pakistan is spelled out in the Objectives Resolution. Pakistan is the most interesting experiment in Islamic democracy- Jinnah understood this well too btw.

If as some of our posters are saying, we turn towards secularism, there is nothing special about Pakistan and the Pakistani nation will disintegrate into 5 separate ethnic nations. Not to speak about the Indian immigrants. Of which Jinnah belonged. The biggest Achilles heal for us has been our demographic make up- pre-71, when the bengalis decided to become secular, they could simply vote for bengalism and where did that leave the rest of west Pakistan. Now, imagine if Punjab openly decides to just vote on ethnicity or secular identity, where will that leave the rest of us.

So no, the goal is not to be some insular ethnic nationalist country based on some indus cradle identity. The only reason we have held together is because of our religious (Islamic) identity. We should espouse to be more than this too. We can be what Prussia was for the hundreds of small Germanic states that it absorbed if we become strong and independent.

Allama Iqbal understood this well. He wrote in jawab ashikwa that famous stanza - he also invited Leopold Weiss, converted to Muhammad Asad to join and represent Pakistan in UN. What does an Austrian Jew have to do with Pakistan except for this very idea of an Islamic democracy.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

Very interesting point, though, you shouldn't single out the Pakistani state. There are many ethnic, religious and linguistic sub-identities that states like Germany, France, Turkey, China, Italy or even Sweden have physically and socially erased over time to forge a somewhat homogeneous and functioning nation out of a demographic "mess".

In fact, Pakistan is incredibly tolerant and lenient when it comes to local identities. One might say even too lenient and tolerant at times...which some people use as a faulty excuse to point out the 'artificial' character of Pakistan.

The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.

Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.

Fair point. Excellent post.

 

[BordoEnes]

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Turks know what to expect from Pakistan and the Pakistani people. There is no image and perception problem that could have contributed to the rift, rather its seems to be solely from the Pakistani side where much misconception is derived from. The truth is that you seem to have put us on some pedestal of a country you should strive to be, whilst we ourselves are not content or particularly happy with our direction. Its just like you said, when you associate yourselves with Erdogan and his highly Islamized views/ideology you are subject to the same criticism that are directed at him as well. Turks don't like Erdogan anymore, period. So when you keep talking about him like he is the next fucking messiah whilst not experiencing the economic hardship and his dictatorial rule that he brought with him we are understandably extremely upset. Enjoy Turkish media to your liking, but understand that that's who were in the past and not who we are now. I mean we all have told you countless times that Turkish TV series were absolute fictional garbage for a reason. Seriously I personally on many occasions have pointed it out throughout the years on this forum.

Turkey and Pakistan are going to stay friends and partners regardless, and make no mistake we are still very aware and appreciate the sacrifices the Indian Muslims and Pakistani's did during the times of the Caliphate but a relationship should be constructive and go both ways. We like Pakistani people, but we are not going out of our way to avoid talking about the problems that our country faces, unfortunately for you we simply no longer can afford to have an open-border policy as evidenced by the countless issues that come along with having close to 10 million refugees/immigrants, among them many Pakistan men it seems. It does not help that even in this forum you people are highly Islamized and fundamentally opposed to secularism it seems. Even the people living in the West have the audacity to criticize much of its institutions and rule of law, but have no problems hypocritically enjoying the many advantages of them. This reality check was bound to happen, and truth be told many of us at least tried to warn you to some extent. If you love Turkey and Turks, then you should love the foundations and its fundamental secular identity, not to mention the social values and norms that come with it cough woman cough. There is no conditional love with us, its total nonsense.

You need to understand that identities are extremely fluid. Historically it used to be based on religion, and that goes for the Turks as well. We used to be sworn enemies with our own ethnic Azerbaijani Turks kin based solely on adhering to different sects of Islam, but now we are nothing short of a united single people with two states, because we moved past it. Hell even now as we speak we are moving away from an ethnic identity and moving towards as civic/national based one where minorities become more involved and inclusive. We kept moving forward and chancing, and your identity foundation remained the same. If it works for you, that's fine its not my place to judge but it does matter to our perception of you. Be proud of your history and all the ties we share, but move past them.

TLDR:
You have fetishized your own islamist ideology in a weird form of historical nostalgia and have imposed your views in countries and people that do not share it.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

So no, the goal is not to be some insular ethnic nationalist country based on some indus cradle identity. The only reason we have held together is because of our religious (Islamic) identity. We should espouse to be more than this too. We can be what Prussia was for the hundreds of small Germanic states that it absorbed if we become strong and independent.

Do it the Iran way. Promote Islam to counter cultural Marxism while also acknowledging and being proud of our ethnicities that reside in this land.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

YOOOOO LMFAOOOOOOOO

@TNT @WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @akramishaqkhan

Please look at this

No point in arguing. We are what we believe.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

No point in arguing. We are what we believe.

Der sha rora

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

No point in arguing. We are what we believe.

So Filipinos and indians living in the UK who call themselves english are now english people?...............

 

[Maula Jatt]

Do it the Iran way. Promote Islam to counter cultural Marxism while also acknowledging and being proud of our ethnicities that reside in this land.

does Ali Zafar count? , he is the only who thinks from that angle nowadays

Although he was kinda criticized on this forum or made fun of cause its very cringy - but it what it is at least he is trying

 

[Mirzali Khan]

does Ali Zafar count? , he is the only who thinks from that angle nowadays

Although he was kinda criticized on this forum or made fun of cause its very cringy - but it what it is at least he is trying

I respect Ali Zafar for making a song in PASHTO! 10 years ago that would've been UNTHINKABLE! It became a hit in Pakistan!

It shows we have the roots and seeds there we need to actually act on it.

Ali Zafar triggered Afghans so hard that they started comparing it to that donkey Ahmed Zahir's version. Ahmed Zahir's version straight up sounds like a dying donkey. Some started claiming Pakistan is stealing culture and appropriating it

Countless tik toks were made calling it "fake" while it started to unite Pakistanis. The original song was a folk song that was made by Gulnar Begum in the 50's.

Larsha Peshawar by Ali Zafar and Kanyaari from Coke Studio were well received by the Pakistani populace too.

 

[Ssan]

Do it the Iran way. Promote Islam to counter cultural Marxism while also acknowledging and being proud of our ethnicities that reside in this land.

We can’t do it like Iran. Iran itself is an ethnic nationalist country at the root of it. The name itself means “Aryan” in Persian. Historically, the Safavid state converted what used to be a Sunni country to Shia’ism and then promoted a version of Shia theology called Usulism to control large swathes of shia population outside of Iran proper.

Our experiment is different, we have no single overwhelming ethnicity, but we do have an idea of islamic democracy where we can try to celebrate everyone’s differences while granting everyone equal rights under the umbrella of an islamic civil state. If we do this, we would become truly exceptional.

 

[Faqirze]

The world is a crazy place, I used to get called "Gul Khan" by Afghans and now my fellow Pakistanis think I am some hidden Indo-Afghan terrorist sympathizer

That must mean you are doing something right

Also because the culture promotes a weird fetishizing of Turkish women which people in Pakistan actually believe if they go to Turkey they will find a Haleema for themselves. And lets not forget about this really weird and disturbing action that is being promoted by a news channel as a "love story"

Oh boy, did you read the comments on that video from Pakistanis?

 

[Mirzali Khan]

We can’t do it like Iran. Iran itself is an ethnic nationalist country at the root of it. The name itself means “Aryan” in Persian. Historically, the Safavid state converted what used to be a Sunni country to Shia’ism and then promoted a version of Shia theology called Usulism to control large swathes of shia population outside of Iran proper.

Our experiment is different, we have no single overwhelming ethnicity, but we do have an idea of islamic democracy where we can try to celebrate everyone’s differences while granting everyone equal rights under the umbrella of an islamic civil state. If we do this, we would become truly exceptional.

We are similar to Iran in terms of ethnic diversity they just know how to deal with insurgencies and know how to use Islam as a glue but not as a way to erase others identity.

Oh boy, did you read the comments on that video?

Turkish people are rightfully angry.