Pakistan’s Monster

[Spectre]

If US is equal culprit why don't we hear Modi criticizing her with the same zeal and asking her to solve the mess she created?

For your info US wasn't equally involve she had 90% share. Had there been no billion of dollars from her and all the latest weapons nothing would happened in Afghanistan. Pakistan at max was in a supportive role to do whatever she was asked of.
Historical ties kindly elaborate?

Well Somalia , sudan , rest of Africa and dozens other places across globe are in more need for such "HUMANTARIAN AID' and are less dangerous for workers as well why not help them first and when things in Afghanistan improve then show your humanity here. Isnt it a more logical stance?

At home Modi and his Sanghis hate Muslims like hell and schemes like Ghar wapsi are getting momentum with every day so are you guy planning to covert Afghanis to Hinduism as well?

And before building roads in Afghanistan or Africa wouldn't it be fair to first do the same in your own country and bring her to a developed state status.

1. US didnt re-route this Afghanis to India, Pakistan did hence we have beef with Pakistan

2. So poor US paid billions of dollars and Pakistan was meek spectator who out of the goodness of heart followed orders blindly without having any agenda of strategic depth of it's own?

3. We help Afganistan because i they lie in our immediate neighborhood and a peaceful Afghanistan would be a great ally and a gateway for India to C. Asia. Somalia will not be.

Haha I would like to see RSS try their hands on converting the fiery Afghanis to Hinduism - Afghans would have RSS for breakfast. Thanks that had me cracking. Dont over-estimate RSS - they have some appeal I admit among limited section of Indians but reasons of BJP coming to power had nothing to do with Hindu extremism but more to do with naked corruption and lethargy exhibited by Congress. Put simply - Modi offered Indians development and Indians gave him a chance. He got elected on the premise of toilets and not temples.

4. Yes you make a good point but we believe we can do both develop our country and help our neighbors at the same time. We understand that the investment made in Afghanistan has potential to give us enormous returns and that is why we are invested in stability of Afghanistan

What happens inside Pakistan, covert or not, is Pakistan's responsibility to allow or stop, wouldn't you agree, Sir?

Ideally yes, but external influence of a Donor country is impossible to resist and in addition no one saw the rise of TTP like extremists who would harm Pakistan. As they say hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Tipu7]

This explains every thing again and again.....

 

[Vapnope]

For years—indeed, even today—the Pakistani generals imagined they could have it both ways: that they could support the Afghan Taliban while ignoring the Taliban inside Pakistan. The Pakistani military often aided the C.I.A.’s drone campaign in Pakistan, but, while the Americans wanted to go after both groups of Taliban, the Pakistanis typically only helped them with the Pakistani cells. The Pakistani generals were playing a double game inside a double game: they took the Americans’ billions and supported the Taliban fighters who were killing the Americans, and they secretly helped the Americans kill Pakistani Taliban in the C.I.A.’S drone war, letting the Pakistani civilian leaders take the heat.

I think author needs to check the deaths via drone attacks and confirm who actually was killed (How many Pakistani taliban leaders were killed by Drones), and why Pakistani army handed over Al Qaida top tier to American military is the question we should ask this author.

 

[Amaa'n]

Well US, Saudi and other external influences get a free pass because it is not their skin in the game. It is correct that blame must be appropriated and history should stand witness to all those who played their part in creating the monster of extremism and not just lay the whole thing on the shoulders of one or two parties.

However if we look forward then what are the dangers of allowing non state actors to flourish on Pakistani soil? I understand the Pakistani Military is right now overstretched in dealing with "TTP" but what after TTP is vanquished - and I believe it would be sooner or later.

The stats would like to disagree with you on this, the soil may be ours but we are also the country suffering outmost from Terrorism, the fight against terrorism being fought on this soil so i do not see how non state actors are flourishing on Pakistani soil ---
we have "OUR' own interests to look after at first and then we can look after others, and our interest are in kicking out jihadis and their sympathizers that are killing innocent Pakistanis every day ---
Once we have accomplished that goal then we can move forward to tackle OTHER's interest

An example to here would be of LeJ chief who was waging war on Pakistani Shias - well we arranged his meeting with our Creator, and many senior commanders of his league have been taken to task every day ----- so Pakistan is trying to kill this monster ---- it is a different thing that the Pace is not right -----

To All kids --- If you want to hear from sane voices and need constructive arguments from seniors like Irfan Baloch and Syed Haider then better stick to the topic and throw out this India - Afghanistan, LeT , JeM bs crap ----

 

[illusion8]

by the way, the article is retarded. to make its point and strengthen its conclusion. the author makes the omission of the following

Saudi and American full involvement in the making of Taliban
and the fact that it was done during Secular democratic government of pro West Benazir Bhutto

shamefully omitting that... the entire blame is put on ISI.
this is what you call a popular view, that gets you approval. its called toeing the line.


in very simplistic brief
the troubles of Islamic terrorism in Pakistan are due to Saudi/ Iran proxy wars. its NOT because of Quetta Shura or JeM or LeT... as copy pasted by convenient foreign writers who check what Indians are saying and fix up their report for their channels as a reason for any new attacks inside Pakistan.

the Shia Islamic revolution of Iran and the Soviet invasion coincided in almost the same years and Saudis used the Afghan Jihad to counter the Iranian ambitious plan of exporting their revolution, Pakistan became the hist of two conflicting ideologies. the religious intolerance and violence was always there but not so profound in Pakistan....what you see as TTP, Taliban or Daesh now were originally anti Shia outfits who restricted their hate and deadly violence towards shia community only.
the Afghan jihad and then the 911 gave them the room to expand themselves further. while they dutifully filled the ranks of Afghan Jihadis on the sideline they never forgot their real mission which was anti shia and much fuelled and supported by Saudi funding.

as for RAW bashing, it may or may not be valid. any hostile agency worth its money will use a difficult position of its target country to its advantage . its a murky world where morality and decency dont count. if Saudis or Iranians wont hesitate in their own covert operations inside Pakistan then no one else will (to put it mildly).

now... a repeated copy pasted and retarded comments made by some commentators is that Pakistan is facing these issues because it is only targeting TTP in the tribal areas..

how unfortunate isnt it? I mean the Americans should have invaded Iran or China because Al Qaeda and taliban antagonised them yea?

since Afghans dont feel compelled going after the TTP or BLA and were even caught hosting TTP leader Latifullah Mehsood by Americans ... its really strange that they expect Pakistan to prioritise their enemy over the Pakistani enemy they are currently hosting.

an underlying message in some foreign news postings (in BBC why these attacks are happening) is that the attacks are the response to Pakistan for not going after Indian specific organisations. so TTP might get the patronage of Indians as well as Saudis too. as far as Sectarian Arab regimes are concerned, ends justify means... as long as TTP and other similar ideological organisations are confronting Iran specifically and shias in general .. they are fine with the chaos in Pakistan. the happy time for TTP is that it sees potential supporters from other "unlikely" quarters as well that can use the situation to their advantage.

I see Pakistanis blaming India for all their woes - given that RAW gets paid to control terrorism against India by anti Indian terrorist groups operating out of Pakistan, one cannot discount RAW's involvement at some level.

"Americans supported taliban" would be a wrong statement, Americans supported the mujjis..

The taliban was a Pakistan spin off. Hamid Gul, ISI chief was called the "father of the taliban" and "patron in chief" of the taliban for a reason.

Pakistani intelligence and it's army aided the taliban takeover of Afghanistan - according to most experts, and I believe it as well.

Al Qaeda, TTP and OBL figures at some point in the whole jihad mess.. Those were the side reactions of a bad experiment called the taliban jihad.

The Afghan taliban experiment provided such lucrative benefits for the Pakistani intelligence that they figured it would be handy against its other adversaries and prolonged the experiment for too long..

But then. ..A bad experiment with evil intentions do tend to go bad for the experimentor. The hydra monster went out of Pakistani control and other vested interests started taking advantage.

TTP was a spin off from the original taliban, the overall jihadi action prevalent in the world at the moment can also be attributed to the taliban movement and the prevalent sectarian divide in the Muslim world.

Pakistani intelligence tried all it could with peace talks, roping in the US , Chinese or Russians to strengthen their anti TTP actions, even going to war...

In Pakistan...The anti India and the anti Afghanistan jihad squad is intact though, and that's a plus for Pakistan.

I personally see it just going from bad to worse.

This might be different than the Pakistani narrative...but this is how the world at large - Pakistani neighbors and the western media analyses it as..

 

[spinghar]

What's the difference - both Talib and hikmatyar are Jihadi extremists who were fighting for the spoils of the war. Once it became clear - he would loose to Talib, Pakistan hedged with Talib. Simply the matter of choosing the winning terrorist instead of the loosing one

lot of difference. warlord hikmatyar was pure Islamist deriving their ideology from islamic brotherhood, they were pure interventionist. taliban was opposite of them, they were the product of traditional conservative pashtun society where islamic interpretation was based on old values and inline with pashtun strict code. they are against foreign intervention and don't consider it necessary that islam need to be interpreted inline with modern values.

 

[illusion8]

The stats would like to disagree with you on this, the soil may be ours but we are also the country suffering outmost from Terrorism, the fight against terrorism being fought on this soil so i do not see how non state actors are flourishing on Pakistani soil ---
we have "OUR' own interests to look after at first and then we can look after others, and our interest are in kicking out jihadis and their sympathizers that are killing innocent Pakistanis every day ---
Once we have accomplished that goal then we can move forward to tackle OTHER's interest

An example to here would be of LeJ chief who was waging war on Pakistani Shias - well we arranged his meeting with our Creator, and many senior commanders of his league have been taken to task every day ----- so Pakistan is trying to kill this monster ---- it is a different thing that the Pace is not right -----

To All kids --- If you want to hear from sane voices and need constructive arguments from seniors like Irfan Baloch and Syed Haider then better stick to the topic and throw out this India - Afghanistan, LeT , JeM bs crap ----

Perpetrator should feel the pain that he is inflicting with his jihadi actions against his neighbors..and that's a fair thing.

The one that kills others should be prepared to get his own and himself getting killed.

 

[Spectre]

To All kids --- If you want to hear from sane voices and need constructive arguments from seniors like Irfan Baloch and Syed Haider then better stick to the topic and throw out this India - Afghanistan, LeT , JeM bs crap ----

Easy with the condescension. Just because you would like to wish away LeT and JeM you cannot do so. These groups are the part of extremist system which sow so much destruction.

lot of difference. warlord hikmatyar was pure Islamist deriving their ideology from islamic brotherhood, they were pure interventionist. taliban was opposite of them, they were the product of traditional conservative pashtun society where islamic interpretation was based on old values and inline with pashtun strict code. they are against foreign intervention and don't consider it necessary that islam need to be interpreted inline with modern values.

So these conservative pashtun Taliban are alight even if they murder innocent children, lynch women, ban education, music and sports and rape, destroy and pillage with abandon? In my book there is no difference b/w them and ISIS, TTP etc. All rotten to the core, subhuman animals.

 

[TMA]

Did I not say that US is equally culpable in the creation of these terrorists in my previous posts?

India has historical ties with Afghanistan and is involved in a huge way in reconstruction of Afghanistan as a friendly country. We build schools, hospitals, parliaments, dams, roads etc in Afghanistan thus earning as good will and necessitating a presence of significant diplomatic staff for the convenience of 1000s of Indians workers and engineering.

Regards

But is Bharati input into Afghanistan limited to what you have written about?
Ajit Doval may have something to say about this.

 

[Amaa'n]

Easy with the condescension. Just because you would like to wish away LeT and JeM you cannot do so. These groups are the part of extremist system which sow so much destruction.

.

first part of my post has answered your question already ---- read it again

 

[koolio]

Pakistan's monster is home grown ISI rogue agencies . This is what happens when the government doesn't hold enough power over the military . And the military is playing with powers they can't control .[/QUOTE

What are you doing on this forum? Since you own prime minister is a rogue mass murderer, you should be condemning him for committing grace crimes against humanity.

 

[spinghar]

So these conservative pashtun Taliban are alight even if they murder innocent children, lynch women, ban education, music and sports and rape, destroy and pillage with abandon? In my book there is no difference b/w them and ISIS, TTP etc. All rotten to the core, subhuman animals.

this is just propaganda shit, they did not murder innocent children or lynch woman, neither did they ban education they have always protected educational institution and other development projects. all of these are qualities of inhuman warlords and private militia. you have absorbed too much negative propaganda against them

 

[Spectre]

this is just propaganda shit, they did not murder innocent children or lynch woman, neither did they ban education they have always protected educational institution and other development projects. all of these are qualities of inhuman warlords and private militia. you have absorbed too much negative propaganda against them

We dont even have to look long back, just the latest example of Taliban's development projects

Afghanistan: Harrowing accounts emerge of the Taliban’s reign of terror in Kunduz | Amnesty International

You can fool gullible Pakistanis but not us for we will forever remember the time when you gave sanctuary to the hijackers of IA plane

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I see Pakistanis blaming India for all their woes - given that RAW gets paid to control terrorism against India by anti Indian terrorist groups operating out of Pakistan, one cannot discount RAW's involvement at some level.

"Americans supported taliban" would be a wrong statement, Americans supported the mujjis..

The taliban was a Pakistan spin off. Hamid Gul, ISI chief was called the "father of the taliban" and "patron in chief" of the taliban for a reason.

.

hold it right there.. you are one of my favored Indian posters so I am compelled to correct you.

Hamid Gul had long retired.
Taliban experiement was discussed and approved between Saudis, USA and Pakistan during Benazir time.
Gen Nasir the PPP interior minister is termed father of Taliban, Gen Gul was long retired and barred from planning quarters.

Benazir gave the final approval from Pakistani side and the motive was to bring "rationality" in the Afghan warring factions. literally everyone was fighting everyone , even those commanders that later formed the Northern alliance against the Taliban. (Saudis and Iranian proxy war continued there too). .

RAW is side show. don't be too sensitive to its mention. I already apologised for it saying that as a hostile agency it will be fool not to take advantage and use the groups that are anti Pakistan in nature.

in my view.. the main antagonist is the unfortunate timing of Iran revolution coinciding with Soviet Invasion .. first resulted in the Aggressive ideological expansion from Iranian ayatollahs and the second gave the Arab wahabi world a chance to counter the Shia onslaught,


fast forward......> Soviet withdrawal..> Afghan civil war........> repeated failed mediations......> taliban emergence...........> Taliban victory & oppressive regime.> Al Qaeda partnership with Taloban...> 911.> toppling of Taliban.......> taliban resurgence after the marginalisation of Afghan Pashtons and Northern alliance commanders blanket brutality towards the Pashtons....> emergence of Pakistani taliban in the name of punishing Pakistan for ditching Taliban and joining American war on terror.....> present

We dont even have to look long back, just the latest example of Taliban's development projects

Afghanistan: Harrowing accounts emerge of the Taliban’s reign of terror in Kunduz | Amnesty International

You can fool gullible Pakistanis but not us for we will forever remember the time when you gave sanctuary to the hijackers of IA plane

there is no point arguing there. just remind your self to gruesome executions in the Kabul football stadium of men and women

 

[khail007]

In condeming the main factor, Indian always stay short of main reasons. They know very well, that it will economically hurt them so that their so called claim of rising economy will collapse like twin tower.
Further Pakistan bashing is their favourite subject until there are morons in power in Pakistan.
They were always afraid on doing this until Musharraf was in power, because Musharraf always hit back with appropriate response. Present civilian government and their relatives has many trading/investing projects with BANIA. They are so weak due their vested interests they even unable to protect Pakistan by giving any statement in favour of Pakistan.