Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[hj786]

Now if we are still getting ready our mirage 3/5 and installing air to air refuelling probes on them, which then becomes something contradictory in itself. So---if mirage 3/5 can still be flying for the next 10--15 years---then the m2k's should be good for at least another quarter of a century---now shouldn't they be!!!

M2k is more suited to the strike role than air defence, why buy it if M3/5 will be flying strike missions "for the next 10-15 years"?

If M3/5 will still be flying for the next 10-15 years, why are their replacements being inducted right now? Why haven't they been upgraded with MICA like they were supposed to be under ROSE IV? Why is the AAR probe installation only a "pilot programme"?

You said yourself that PAF would need at least 5-10 years to master a new aeroplane, is it wise to use a jet for the next 15-20 years that your opponent has been flying for the last ~25 years? Why not get more F-16 that you have flown for the last 25 years?

JF-17 and J-10 will last a longer than 25 years for a fraction of the cost of M2k. Why not make a more long-term investment with them?

 

[notorious_eagle]

I think its about time that PAF lovers get over their obsession with M2K and F16's.

 

[MastanKhan]

hj786,

The story of Yousuf and Zulekha was being told all night long---in the morning when the story ended---one guy asked---so who was Yousuf---was he male---or was he female. ( and I apologize about the rhetoric in advance )

I guess you missed the part where I talked about people bragging about pakistni origin pilots fyling and maintaining qatari m2k's for years---keeping that perspective in mind, what could be a better plane to be put into service.

What I am getting out of this discussion is that most of the members on this board have no comprehension and understanding of getting prepared in advance from the enemy threat. Of the three wings of the pak millitary---the army has done its bit and is at par to do the job---the navy---our step-child is making headway with whatever it can get by---the only branch that should have been the point guard has had a stunted growth for the last 20 years---excuses set aside.

JF 17 is like a mirage in the desert to a starving nation---or it is like the bag full of water the bedouin brought to the court of Khalifah---was it Haroun or Mamoun Rashid---and stated ''YA amir I bring you the sweetest of water". The amir drank the water and gave the bedouin a reward and let him go. One of the wazirs drank the water and spat it out and stated " Amir---this water was very bitter---why did you reward the bedouin". The Amir replied---" from where this bedouin comes from, that water is extremely bitter---so this water tasetd very sweet to him---so he brought it for me".

Some of you may realize where I am headed for----we are a fighter / strike aircraft starved nation for the last 20 years---we have super star world class pilots---who at any given time can tear apart any competition---we have been deprived for so long that we now knowingly exeggerate the abilities of a system that is not even at its functional deployment stage yet---we have become a nation who would say---we can do this to you----to a nation---which says---we will do this to you when we get our aircraft---in the next 3--5 years.

Some or most of you young players cannot differentiate between the two---to some of them, the significance and the irony of the fact makes no difference. Sometimes---when a person starts bragging---he loses touch with reality and gets so engrossed in defending their statements ( to save face ) that even if they are shown the right path---they fail to change direction---it is very difficult to accept the loss of face.


We have agreed that m2k5 was a thing of the past---it is done with---it is gone----but the replacemnt aircraft the JF 17 is no magic bullet either.

 

[ejaz007]

What people forget is that even though Mirage 2000 is a previous generation aircraft it is still better than the ones we are operating. Also obtaining spared for Mirage III/V is more difficult than for Mirage 2000.

So overall I am still in favor of inducting these planes if possible.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

By reading the posts of ex fighter jocks----and the experience of pak origin pros maintaing those planes---m2k maynot be a brand new platform when it comes to integration.


Secondly---I am not in the habbit of denying anyone their right to argue nor do I have any right---but your statement is appalling---.


""""Mirage-2000 will not give us any edge over the IAF, it will be just like any another plane in our inventory something that the IAF already has and fully aware of how to use it to its full potential"""".

I for one am truly shocked at the insensitivity of the statement---it is fact known all over the world that PAF---a first class air force has third class planes in its fleet---it is also a well known fact that m2k5 would neutralize any IAF air superiority except for the SU 30's. People on this board brag about PAF pilots superior to any indian pilots or otherwise---well if they are so good then they should have no problem winning every battle with similiar aircraft----the man behind the machine will make the difference analogy should come into force---then where lise the problem.

I say again---WHO BENEFITS for PAF not getting the m2k5's---if it is india----then we pakistanis are losers for the upteenth time. Our young ones and older ones still have not learnt their lessons well.

That is the absolute bottomline---that is the truth serum---that is the litmus test---regardless of what anyone says---if india benefits---then we have failed.

 

[hj786]

Dear MastanKhan, those on this board bragging that PAF can maintain M2k just as they have maintained M3/5 are the ones who have lost touch with reality. The fact of the matter is this: M2k has nothing in common with M3/5 except the manufacturer. These posters are simply wrong, you know it and if they read a few articles on M2k and M3/5, they will know it too. It is an entirely new aeroplane. Just read some Wikipedia articles and you will see that.

JF may taste bitter to you, but PAF can make it into an MKI-killer for a fraction of the cost of buying, operating, maintaining and upgrading second-hand M2k. This is not an exaggeration, it's true. "we will do this to you when we get our aircraft---in the next 3--5 years." Then PAF must wait for 3-5 years, that is the path they are taking. They (and I) feel it is worth the risk.

 

[LCA]

JF may taste bitter to you, but PAF can make it into an MKI-killer for a fraction of the cost of buying, operating, maintaining and upgrading second-hand M2k. This is not an exaggeration, it's true. "we will do this to you when we get our aircraft---in the next 3--5 years." Then PAF must wait for 3-5 years, that is the path they are taking. They (and I) feel it is worth the risk.

Would you tell how you made JF into a MKI killer in next 3-5 years?

do u think that MKI will be same spec. in 3-5 years and no fighters included into this time period(MMRCA)?



may be you still unable to understand the difference b/w

we can do this..........
and
we will do this...........

by MastanKhan

 

[Zob]

Ok LCA u pounced on the story of this and that....see iwill tell u something David killed Goliath...in the same aspect a JF can kill the MKI....and thirdly if a Stelath bomber can be shot down over Yougosalavia ur MKI is no alien tecnology....ok now coming to the whole argument about the M2K being with the enemy....see like i have said before u can't expect MICHEAL SCHUMCAHER....to win a race in his sedan car that he drives to work.... he has 2 be in a ferrari to win it....same way we rather fight the enenmy head on in an M2K which they might have rather then go up against the enemy in an F7PG...Having B*lls is good...but just having b*alls is plain stupidity.... so i throw my lot with getting M2K...HOWEVER ONLY IF WE CAN GET THEM FOR 9 MILLION A PLANE or gifts!!! but spending above 20 million for them is stupidity...

 

[nikhil]

see iwill tell u something David killed Goliath...in the same aspect a JF can kill the MKI

LOL...what kind of logic is that.


as far as i can see, the only problem of mki is its RCS. na?
but that can be compensated by its radar N011BARS> this baby is there in to-be-inducted su35 and to-be-introduced PAKFA only. cool huh?

 

[LCA]

Ok LCA u pounced on the story of this and that....see iwill tell u something David killed Goliath...in the same aspect a JF can kill the MKI....and thirdly if a Stelath bomber can be shot down over Yougosalavia ur MKI is no alien tecnology....ok now coming to the whole argument about the M2K being with the enemy....see like i have said before u can't expect MICHEAL SCHUMCAHER....to win a race in his sedan car that he drives to work.... he has 2 be in a ferrari to win it....same way we rather fight the enenmy head on in an M2K which they might have rather then go up against the enemy in an F7PG...Having B*lls is good...but just having b*alls is plain stupidity.... so i throw my lot with getting M2K...HOWEVER ONLY IF WE CAN GET THEM FOR 9 MILLION A PLANE or gifts!!! but spending above 20 million for them is stupidity...

Ok Zob

i got my answer that JF is total crap in front of MKI.
and you people don't have any logic to defend your saying.

Only thing you can do is .

 

[araz]

I guess you missed the part where I talked about people bragging about pakistni origin pilots fyling and maintaining qatari m2k's for years---keeping that perspective in mind, what could be a better plane to be put into service.

What I am getting out of this discussion is that most of the members on this board have no comprehension and understanding of getting prepared in advance from the enemy threat. Of the three wings of the pak millitary---the army has done its bit and is at par to do the job---the navy---our step-child is making headway with whatever it can get by---the only branch that should have been the point guard has had a stunted growth for the last 20 years---excuses set aside.

Sir Mastan Khan.
Now that you have had your say let me say a few things with deepest of respect to you.
Sir, contrary to your thinking we have understood your thinking all along. I have even agreed to it to a certain extent. However, it is your insistence that we have not understood the problem which is a bit too much. I would have hoped that you would have given us some credit!!

JF 17 is like a mirage in the desert to a starving nation---or it is like the bag full of water the bedouin brought to the court of Khalifah---was it Haroun or Mamoun Rashid---and stated ''YA amir I bring you the sweetest of water". The amir drank the water and gave the bedouin a reward and let him go. One of the wazirs drank the water and spat it out and stated " Amir---this water was very bitter---why did you reward the bedouin". The Amir replied---" from where this bedouin comes from, that water is extremely bitter---so this water tasetd very sweet to him---so he brought it for me".

Sir, the fact is your opinion aside, all the news coming out is highly suggestive of the fact that the Thunder is really evolving into a very capabler platform. I would not deny that it is new and has had teething problems, but this is now behind us and it will be the first platform with BVR (Officially) in PAF. The first squadron is due for induction towards the mid of this year . Even if we delay it by six months it is not bad. It may be a mirage, but it is the best that we will have and I think whether we like it or not we will have to be conntented with it. Even though in its present form it will be better than any of the planes in your inventry, things will get better with the next tranche and we will have western origin weapons on it. Even if we assume that SD10 is not upto par, it is better than anything that we have currently.

Some of you may realize where I am headed for----we are a fighter / strike aircraft starved nation for the last 20 years---we have super star world class pilots---who at any given time can tear apart any competition---we have been deprived for so long that we now knowingly exeggerate the abilities of a system that is not even at its functional deployment stage yet---we have become a nation who would say---we can do this to you----to a nation---which says---we will do this to you when we get our aircraft---in the next 3--5 years.

Sir, with all due respect even if we bought he Mirage M2K5 from Qatar, it is naive to think that they will load them on to a plane and send them over tommorrow. even negotiations will take a year or so, with all the tooing and froing. Then the UAE Mirages will not be available before 2012, given the UAE sign a contract this year. Secondly, where are we going to get the money from and how are we going to errect the infrastructure. Thirdly in between all this chaos, we will be inducting JF17 ,and f16s as well. I dont know of any airforce that inducts/has inducted 3 platforms simultaneously. Even after that what technological advantage do we get . These Planes have been mothballedif I remember correctly, so we cannot just start flying them straight away. Then if they need spares, France will have a golden opportunity to fleece you, something that they are famous for. You know this as well as anyone on this forum that they will not let go of any opportunity to do so. At the end of it all we have a 12 yr old plane bought at a very high price, which will need upgrading. It is right to think that it gives us no advantage over India because they have been flying this baby for 25 yrs. Whereas for us it will be a new platform. i dont think it will take us 10 yrs, to master it but it will take us 2-3 yrs to devise a strategy for its use and master it. Then we are developing FC20. So how do we find the money to buy this plane which will definately give us an upper hand in the Indo Pak arena. I think it is wishful thinking that pakistan will step out of its financial woes in 2-3 yrs. So whether we like it or not the argument of having capability in 2-3 yrs falls on its face vis a vis M2K5.

Some or most of you young players cannot differentiate between the two---to some of them, the significance and the irony of the fact makes no difference. Sometimes---when a person starts bragging---he loses touch with reality and gets so engrossed in defending their statements ( to save face ) that even if they are shown the right path---they fail to change direction---it is very difficult to accept the loss of face.

Agreed . There is no proof to suggest that we will be in a position to rub IAFs face in the ground, except in the heart of the enthusiasts and the young. However, when has that ever been the case. we ahve always fought our wars with a numerical and capbiltiy wise inferior poosition. We have fought hard and the Indians respect us for that. in many ways this is what keeps them away rather than the equipment. Whether it remains the case in future or not has to be seen. I hope for pakistan and India's case that there is no war as it would have catastrophic consequences for both. And also it is very debatable that Qatari M2K5s will in any way, shape and form change this line of thinking. If you are looking at a fleet of M2k9s, it will not materialize before 2016-19 in significant numbers(UAE +French origins).

We have agreed that m2k5 was a thing of the past---it is done with---it is gone----but the replacemnt aircraft the JF 17 is no magic bullet either.

Agreed. However, capability wise the thunder comes pretty close to M2k5 with BVR and it is capable of growing past that stage, where as M2K5 is at the end of its development cycle. It may not be our magic bullet , but it is the only thing we have to contend with. I say let M2K5 die out its natural death and lets develope what we have. it is the Thunder that has the potential to grow, not M2K5.
I apologize in advance if anything that I have written offends you. WaSalam
Araz

 

[Zob]

OK LCA....let me come down to some facts to defeat ur ALIEN technology...even thouh i am not well versed as Marxz,Mastan khan andalot more on this forum who deserve alot of respect...but see a JF-17 over Lahore and an SU30 that take off from Amritsar....both are BVR capable.... we will have our AIM120-C5 and u will have ur R-77s now the question comes down 2 the A2A missle....yes yes yes i know like most indians here u will start about detection range and all but my friend in a PAF vs IAF fight the detection range wll not be an issue because both our front bases areclose 2 the border....so now tell me how "INFERIOR" is JF-17 to the SU-30....if it is so inferior i assure u PAF would have had alot of sleepless night and IAF would have carried out its surgical strikes way back in december. but then i can be wrong and we can surel discuss this issue...but please don't jump to conclusions saying hey SU30 wins and u guys can't fight it....!!! and to know more please go to the thread about SU30 vs JF-17 and for crying out loud stop posting on this forum about PHALCON the best in the world SU30 is ALIEN TECHNOLOGY...

 

[LCA]

OK LCA....let me come down to some facts to defeat ur ALIEN technology...even thouh i am not well versed as Marxz,Mastan khan andalot more on this forum who deserve alot of respect...but see a JF-17 over Lahore and an SU30 that take off from Amritsar....both are BVR capable.... we will have our AIM120-C5 and u will have ur R-77s now the question comes down 2 the A2A missle....yes yes yes i know like most indians here u will start about detection range and all but my friend in a PAF vs IAF fight the detection range wll not be an issue because both our front bases areclose 2 the border....so now tell me how "INFERIOR" is JF-17 to the SU-30....if it is so inferior i assure u PAF would have had alot of sleepless night and IAF would have carried out its surgical strikes way back in december. but then i can be wrong and we can surel discuss this issue...but please don't jump to conclusions saying hey SU30 wins and u guys can't fight it....!!! and to know more please go to the thread about SU30 vs JF-17 and for crying out loud stop posting on this forum about PHALCON the best in the world SU30 is ALIEN TECHNOLOGY...

Are we playing any game or what ?,JF-17 only from lahore and MKI from amritsar

i don't know about JF but MKI can come from ambala,bareilly,etc which are far from border ,then detection range will be the big issue.

Then you are saying JF with AIM120-C5, are you kidding or dreaming.

JF is from china and do you think US share their tech.. with china to integrate this missile with JF(they don't even share the fin of their misslie with china)

your above post encourage me to jump into the conclusion, otherwise i want a fair disc...

but any way this a wrong thread...

i only post here because somebody start comparing JFvsMKI in M2K saga

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Araz,

My friend--I do have a thick skin. But I do appreciate the kind words. I tahnk you very much for responding.

Seems tome like this has become a tennis match with a long rally. The posters are just saying the same things and nobody wants to move from their fixed positions---.

From your last post---seemingly---you have changed your position somewhat!!!

 

[BoggedDown]

Mastan Khan, it is almost pointless to argue in any Pakistani Defence froum. Most of the people has bazaar like mentality so that they seems to have either crystal ball so see everything PAF will do in advance or have have day job as PAF air marshals so know what decisions they will take in future. Most people forget that we are just amateur hobbyist in this discussion forum and hopefully no one is working for PAF. So best we can do speculate and put forward ours views and counter views. If you looks their arguments, most of them are repeating same arguments again and again with full of "will"s, wishful dreams and optimist thinking. There are a lot of self contradictory arguments:

1. Most say Pakistan does not have money for Mirage deals after F16s and J17s. F16s are paid with US money what we receive as providing "services" to US military and I do not think US would allow to use their dollars to buy from some other countries. Pakistan does not have money for JF17s either and they are bought with Chinese soft loans. Similar finance can be arranged for Mirage 2K as well as they are from friendly Arab countries with whom (specially UAE) Pakistan has good special relation. If not than why the hell we cry for "ummah" and show sentiments with their cause and issues. Also think of PAF had to take soft loans for first batch and with current economic situation I think PAF have to do the same for second batch as well as other batches as well. Now PAF is thinking to integrate western components like engine, radar, avionics, weapons etc in second batch, where the money will come from, will western countries provide soft loan as well???? The planned production number of JF17s with western components are quite high (100-200) so the total cost of western components togather will cost quite sum of foreign currency as well.


2. Most argue that with Mirage PAF will get nothing new after getting F16s, Jf17s and FC20s. OK, the F16s PAF ordered are good one if they are delivered as contract says but still it got usage restriction subject to US approval, so I will not say much about them. I really hope and pray that J17s and FC20 will be as good as Mirage 2000-9s because that will be a hell lot of improvement of PAF capabilities that I can dream of. But we often hear PAF eagerness to mate JF17s and FC20s with western technology which are mostly from France and from Mirage project. Though it is very good initiative but it has lot of technological challanges in integration, cost, time and subject to approval from France. Then another question why the hell PAF have to wait and toil for 5-10 years to integrate French technologies (mostly from Mirage or down graded version of it) in JF17s and FC20s, when they can readily got them by acquiring these second hand Mirages. It is better to give 5-10 years to Chinese companies so they can develop those components at par Mirage or better. Then another point if PAF get those major western components somehow incorporated in JF17s and FC20s, is it not PAF will be kept dependent on west whereas the sole purpose of JF17s and FC20s is to be independent of west and their threat of embargo. Even say PAF incorporates French technologies like engine (M88-2 or M53-P), Radar RC-400, MICA or other avionics in JF-17s than it is even make more sense to acquire Mirages as they will have commonality in avionics and weapons as well as maintenance, pilot training and strategy planning.

3. Most argue that second batch JF17s with western avionics will be as good as Mirages. I have already said a lot about western avionics in previous section. But if you compare the size and weight class you will see that JF17s can never match Mirage 2000-9. It does not matter how much growth potential it got because it also has some limit with current design. Now after initial batch of 50s if PAF has to think about western engine, radar, avionics, weapons than what the hell JF17s will remain just shell and some MFDs.

4. India got Miarges and know everything about it so PAF should not buy them. With this logic why the hell IAF has allowed F16s to be in their MMRC competition as PAF should be knowing everything about them. Why air forces of Turkey and Greece both operates F16s and they must be stupid. Most like to boast that it is not only the machine but man behind the machines which matter. But here they easily like to forget it. Also take in notice that UAE Mirages 2000-9s are the most advance ever build and even Qatar Mirage 2000-5 are more advanced than what IAF got vanilla Mirage 2000s. It is no wonder that Mirage 2000-9 versions are called single engine Rafals because most of the avionics are from that project incorporated in it.

5. Some say in addition of F16s PAF needs no other than JF17s and FC-20s.
As I said earlier F-16s are good one but they got element of uncertainity as well as JF17s and FC-20s are good decision, strategic decision in right direction. But in opinion F17s and FC-20s lacks credibility (in fact anything made in china still lack credibility, no offence to china) as they need time to get maturity which is very true for any new build jet fighters. So it will be foolish to solely depend on Chinese air crafts for few next decades until they got proven record. Also for practical reasons PAF should not follow the one basket (chinese) policy rather should minimize the risk with multi vendor procurement policy. Otherwise Pakistan and PAF will repeat the same mistake of last 60 years and may fall in same trap which is the main reason of current handicap of PAF.

Of course all procurement depends on finance capability of Pakistan and we should buy according to our means. But there is a proverb: "one bird in hand is better than ten birds in bush". So PAF capability can not depend only in future and it needs current capability to meet its current challanges which are no less in this neighbourhood.