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Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

Why dont you guys buy the J10B as an interim measure and then work on buying a custom 5th gen from china...Or discount the J10B for now and just stock pile the FC1 and start joint work with china on the J31...

@sandy_3126,
That is a capital idea.
However; about the J10 there is still the issue of the propulsion. Unless the engines are completely of Chinese origin; the PAF will (out of prudence) hedge on that option. As it is, they are still out on a limb vis-a-vis the RD-93s. That matters at the time first of Major OH, then later at the time of replacement. And in wartime/conflicts.......

About the J31 or any cutting edge aircraft; again the issue is the American influence/connection in Pakistan. That will dampen the Chinese enthusiasm for JVs since they will hardly want their best tech to percolate outside.
 
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Hi,

Thank you----again PAF was short-sighted about the price issue over here----and they missed out on the other aspects---. With the rafale contract---PAF would have access to french electronics package as well as the extremely advanced air to air missiles----guess what----that would have left the indians to pursue the much hated americans---the sanction prone----.
Well you forget the other guys shortlisted were the EFT's. India will not deploy any american hardware as it's primary strike platform.
 
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We must understand first that JF17 is not Transformer. Right now this aircraft IMO nothing more then just replacement of old vintage aircrafts in current PAF. This aircraft technically not or never capable to become front line head to head fighter among other top line FRONT LINE fighters. We are still stuck with single engine fighter jet which is IMO useless point of defend. Always crying over money is not actually the first and last answer to defend ***** decision made by PAF Think Tanks. From 1994 - 2006 best time to recover and create healthy Airforce along with dual engine fighters. Unfortunately still even today PAF confused or still don't know which aircraft (s) suits PAF. Pakistan Situated in very important strategical location whereas top world powers playing their games to control economy/trade/oil etc. At this point we are in 3rd shape. Right now PAF lacking in "Everything" either Radar, Anti-Aircraft, Fighter Jets over all "Air Defence". With just 40 F16's along with JF17 you can't even defend 500-700 km border where if your enemy try multiple airstrike btw 1000km. Remember you're not sending your 40 F16s at a time. Where as your enemy gearing-up with State of the Art Heavy/Medium Fighters. Right now only option for the PAF is Chinese. But how long? all those aircrafts which we are actually talking about from last many years like J10A/B/C/D/X/Y/Z we don't know how long these aircraft properly manufacture by China for airforce. Our people are happy and feel little comfortable over J20, J31 etc Chinese Stealth Fighters and talking about Pakistan will get these beasts. First of all really CHINA will sell out ? first question not everything is for sale. After all these Stealth fighters are just in development phase. Even before 2017-2020, I don't see these fighters in Chinese airforce so leave PAF aside.
 
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We must understand first that JF17 is not Transformer. Right now this aircraft IMO nothing more then just replacement of old vintage aircrafts in current PAF. This aircraft technically not or never capable to become front line head to head fighter among other top line FRONT LINE fighters. We are still stuck with single engine fighter jet which is IMO useless point of defend. Always crying over money is not actually the first and last answer to defend ***** decision made by PAF Think Tanks. From 1994 - 2006 best time to recover and create healthy Airforce along with dual engine fighters. Unfortunately still even today PAF confused or still don't know which aircraft (s) suits PAF. Pakistan Situated in very important strategically location where top world powers playing their games to control economy/trade/oil etc. At this point we are in 3rd shape. Right now PAF not capable is lacking in "Everything" either Radar, Anti-Aircraft, Fighter Jets over all "Air Defence". With just 40 F16's along with JF17 you can't even defend properly. Remember you're not sending your 40 F16s at a time. Where as your enemy gearing-up with State of the Art Heavy/Medium Fighters. Right now only option for the PAF is Chinese. But how long? all those aircrafts which we are actually talking about from last many years like J10A/B/C/D/X/Y/Z we don't know how long these aircraft properly manufacture by China for airforce. Our people are happy and feel little comfortable over J20, J31 etc Chinese Stealth Fighters and talking about Pakistan will get these beasts. First of all really CHINA will sell out ? first question not everything is for sale. After all these Stealth fighters are just in development phase. Even before 2017-2020, I don't see these fighters even in Chinese airforce so leave PAF aside.

There are good options available all around if you guys are really looking to buy....

American wll offer, F16 Blk60 with aesa... F/A 18 SH, F15 SE if you guys are ready to spend the greens

Apart from that, there is always the Jas gripen and the EFT...

There are five exceptionally good aircrafts in the market which PAF can buy now in addition to the j10b as an interim measure till the chinese offer transfer or co-development of a 5th gen a/c
 
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There are good options available all around if you guys are really looking to buy....

American wll offer, F16 Blk60 with aesa... F/A 18 SH, F15 SE if you guys are ready to spend the greens

Apart from that, there is always the Jas gripen and the EFT...

There are five exceptionally good aircrafts in the market which PAF can buy now in addition to the j10b as an interim measure till the chinese offer transfer or co-development of a 5th gen a/c

Dear agree on these American machine about whom you're talking "F16 Blk60 with aesa... F/A 18 SH, F15 SE" You mean Pakistan apni aur ****** wali karwaye right ?

We already too late. IMO Pakistan Airforce already sa GOODBYE to almost all American hardware before 2000. When someone clearly show you "DANDA" and you still think that you will buy this and that from them its totally........ mentality. American have already shown their real face in 90s. Its our ****** PAF think tanks because whom we are still don't know about PAF Future aircrafts and over all Air-Defence program.

I am extremely disappoint when Indian Air force selected Rafale. Why because now all sides are completely block.
 
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@sandy_3126,
That is a capital idea.
However; about the J10 there is still the issue of the propulsion. Unless the engines are completely of Chinese origin; the PAF will (out of prudence) hedge on that option. As it is, they are still out on a limb vis-a-vis the RD-93s. That matters at the time first of Major OH, then later at the time of replacement. And in wartime/conflicts.......

About the J31 or any cutting edge aircraft; again the issue is the American influence/connection in Pakistan. That will dampen the Chinese enthusiasm for JVs since they will hardly want their best tech to percolate outside.

shouldn't the french have the same fears with the russians in India... I dont think that should be a valid fear as long as the country has a professional military establishment. And americans are years ahead of the chinese and I say this with no dis-respect to china.... Americans a re years ahead of rest of the world. Chinese industry is progressing at a very impressive rate and PAF should use this to thier advantage and start setting up it's own homegrown industry.
 
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shouldn't the french have the same fears with the russians in India... I dont think that should be a valid fear as long as the country has a professional military establishment. And americans are years ahead of the chinese and I say this with no dis-respect to china.... Americans a re years ahead of rest of the world. Chinese industry is progressing at a very impressive rate and PAF should use this to thier advantage and start setting up it's own homegrown industry.

That fear does not exist in French minds about the Russians. In any case their relationship is hardly adversorial.

It is not whether American tech is ahead of Chinese tech or vice-versa. Its just that the Chinese will be very cautious to ensure that nothing that forms part of Chinese cutting-edge tech gets leaked out. The present relationship between China and USA is prickly enough to believe that it is possible.
 
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Why dont you guys buy the J10B as an interim measure and then work on buying a custom 5th gen from china...Or discount the J10B for now and just stock pile the FC1 and start joint work with china on the J31...

From what we get to know of chinese weapons from specific members here on the forum, they have claimed that chincese a/c are better than russian or at par in certain arenas. Hence China can be a very good alternative, to European companies... You still have the option of the EFT, if you guys are still interested. Or else with a dwindling economy, the best bet is to put most of your egg's in the chinese box... They are quite dependable especially vis-a-vis the country your entire defence doctrine is based on.

Hi,

5th gen aircraft looks very good on paper and flying for a country like the united states---but this wonder with so much cutting edge technology and electronics would break any other nations back just in regular upkeep and maintenance costs---.

PAF needed to get their hands on a 4.5 gen aircraft----compensate with state of the art air to air missiles, ground to air missiles and radar system---.

All PAF can do is cry a sob story all the time---.

Quite a discussion regarding Mirage 2000. But its past now.

However, I think if PAF upgrades all its F-16 to blk 52+ level and concentrate on JF-17 blk 2/3 and J-10B blk 2/3 then they end up with a decent air power.


Poster,

This discussion has moved onto rafale and other french weaponery. Thank you.
 
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Hi,

Thank you----again PAF was short-sighted about the price issue over here----and they missed out on the other aspects---. With the rafale contract---PAF would have access to french electronics package as well as the extremely advanced air to air missiles----guess what----that would have left the indians to pursue the much hated americans---the sanction prone----.

None must challenge the sincerety of the french---they gave us air propulsion for our subs---at times they are forced to play the games forced upon by uncle sam---but overall---they have been extremely reliable---.

Pakistanis need to learn to get out of this mentality syndrome---MONEY BUYS EVERYTHING---yes it may but only in good time----you got to make friends in YOUR GOOD TIMES---they will come to help in your bad times----.

Any one over here has friends---has anyone gone out of their ways to help their friends----I am pretty sure that they have----. SO WHEN YOU WANT TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH NATIONS---TREAT THEM LIKE YOUR PERSONAL FRIENDS AND NOT STRATEGIC ALLIANCES---learn to talk to them and associate with them as their friends do and not address them like YOU AMERICANS----build alliances----.

Does sh-it not happen in real life----do your personal friends not turn on you at times----then why is it different when nations turn on each other---.

In all thru paks 60 years history it is paks failures that have ended in failures in friendship---pak has to look inside---inwards---into their souls and hearts and minds---for the reason for these failures and issues and sanctions.

And for those about the money issues with PAF----if money is the real issue and you don't have fighter aircraft to take on your enemy then why don't you do the next best thing---make peace---regardless of whatsoever----.


Another great post.

PAF is short sighted for sure. But then who isn't in Pakistan? Who isn't.

PAF is just a reflection of the cripple's mentality that we all possess and so proud of it sadly.


It is also true that Money buys everything only when the timing is good.

However I'll add that

if we don't have money, the timing can never be good. Because the timing is dependent on the important pre-condition of having money.


So instead of crying on Rafi rafi rafiale, we should "as you suggest", do some introspection and change our "cripple" (langra loola) mentality and behave rationally and work on earning money.


If India is buying Rafi rafi rafiale, it is because they have spent last few decades working their @rses off in service of Uncle Sam and the US companies. An American shows up in Bombay and the whole nation bends down to do salam.

If China is developing new planes, it is because Chinese have worked their tales off working for the West in general and Walmart in particular. An American shows up Shanghai, and the whole Chinese nation says Ni hao.


We on the other hand are constantly bickering and yelling and shouting anti-West slogans, and then when someone else buys some nice defense toys from the West, we do even more bickering.

We just do be-ayyy-aaay bickering like bakras do in bakra mandi,

So in essence we have turned our beautiful country into a Bicker-aa mandi ba ba black sheeple.


peace
 
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We on the other hand are constantly bickering and yelling and shouting anti-West slogans, and then when someone else buys some nice defense toys from the West, we do even more bickering.
To be honest here what i find most surprising is that in Pakistan, there are anti-west demonstrations in which Pakistani people bring their children to stand on US flags while holding guns!
There are such photographs posted on this forum itself!

Its as if they dont even realize what they are doing and symbolize whats wrong with your country.
 
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To be honest here what i find most surprising is that in Pakistan, there are anti-west demonstrations in which Pakistani people bring their children to stand on US flags while holding guns!
There are such photographs posted on this forum itself!

Its as if they dont even realize what they are doing and symbolize whats wrong with your country.


There is no denying that we have always had an anti-US undercurrent in Pakistan (and so in India by the way). Big names like Faiz Ahmad Faiz were the card carrying commies, spreading poison in Pakistan for a long long time.

However the modern day version of anti-US groups are just tiny number of apes. As they are aping the dimwit tribal and bazari behavior of Hizbullah, Hammas and petty Mullahs from Iran.

The best thing is to ignore them, and focus more on the leftie and socialists and commie intellectuals, the journalists, professors, the trade unions who want to spread Marxism in Pakistan.

That's where the real rot of Pakistan lies. These educated elite who are hell bent on turning our beautiful country into a hell hole like North Korea, or worse Islamist Jannats of Afghanistan and Somalis.


Indians too should be worried, and be very careful in not pushing and supporting these marxists in any way. Because if Pakistan goes, sooner or later, so does India.

And no I am not being pessimist here. This is the history of our region.

Whenever the leadership of the Indian Subcontinent cut each others roots, suddenly the whole region was up in flames and up for grabs by foreign invaders.

I can't explain this fully. So perhaps it is the Karma thing.



peace
 
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you unfairly missed out Jamat Islami which considers Pakistan a mistake and a sin and has the most number of protests & public / private property + foreign flags burning to its credit.

by the way, the late Qazi Husain Ahmed's son was assistant professor in Islamic university in Islamabd when I was doing my masters there then he went to America and is settled there till last I heard, his dad and the Jamat Islami followers however continued to burn the US flag
 
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I urges the moderators to close this thread...
PAF never have intrest in Mairage 2000 after Indian aquirsion of this jet...
 
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I urges the moderators to close this thread...
PAF never have intrest in Mairage 2000 after Indian aquirsion of this jet...

Indians have purchased Rafale so I guess we can say good bye to Rafale also. If within next 10 years Indians decided to induct Eurofighter Typhoon in limited numbers, I guess we can also say good bye to Typhoon than what choices do we have?
 
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Indians have purchased Rafale so I guess we can say good bye to Rafale also. If within next 10 years Indians decided to induct Eurofighter Typhoon in limited numbers, I guess we can also say good bye to Typhoon than what choices do we have?

Its not as bad as that. There are already Chinese aircraft, plus there more that will come out of China.
 
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