Pakistan's ISI intelligence agency 'supports' Taliban: UK University

[SMC]

so on what basis can you counter this report? Personal version of reality?

If its just your personal view that you trust, then there's nothing that can be done to help you. You should leave this thread then, and contribute somewhere else.

I have already actually shown the problem with the report and so have AM and AA. My opinion of this being a possible conspiracy was one of my last posts. All the previous ones were counter arguments against this report.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are a Great Politician afterall AGNO, by re-reading the thread you are saying that your guilt ,of the argument, of not putting ISI under Civilian Agency and Defending with such GRACE to the Pakistanie Audience.

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you meant to say in that post.

The structure of the ISI, as I explained, is clear, and it is one in which the ISI reports to the civilian government.

Secondly, the claims in this article, based on Taliban commanders, that President Zardari, a Shia (ethnic Baloch), liberal, pro-Western and India friendly individual, whose wife was killed by the Taliban, was actually involved in supporting the Taliban, meeting them personally and assuring them of cooperation and ordering their release from prison, are ludicrous.

But if the claims by Taliban commanders are to be taken seriously, then so should their claims that the CIA/US is responsible for the terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

One thing is for sure, the US is a duplicitous snake, and Zardari should keep the lessons learned by Karzai, insulted and betrayed by the US, in mind, and pick another horse.

 

[desiman]

I never claimed that my versions are the reality. I have opinions and in my opinion, X is the reality. However, I don't try to shove my opinion down others' throat by saying that X is the reality or the truth as many Indians do. If you have arguments against my version, sure throw it out and I will try to rebutt, but calling your opinion the reality is, in simple words, a very bad argument.

my friend Pakistani's also try to shove their point down our throat, so its the same on both sides. Its human nature really, we all have our own versions of truth and will defend them till death, its not about nationalities. The point is that when reputable institutions such as LSE release information, they do not do it because of emotions or personal prejudice but because of pure academic reasons. Such studies are looked at by the best in the field before being released to the public so this is as close to reality that we can get. Now we can totally write this off because our own personal reasoning wont allow us to look at the report in a constructive way. We are too busy nullifying this report than to actually spend time to understand it. No proof can ever be enough my friend as our ego's will always stop us from seeing the truth even if its standing naked in front of us.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Secondly, the claims in this article, based on Taliban commanders, that President Zardari, a Shia (ethnic Baloch), liberal, pro-Western and India friendly individual

India friendly? I seriously doubt this one.

, whose wife was killed by the Taliban,

He's more than happy and thankful to Taliban for this. If Taliban hadn't killed his wife, he wouldn't have become what he is today.

was actually involved in supporting the Taliban, meeting them personally and assuring them of cooperation and ordering their release from prison, are ludicrous.

But if the claims by Taliban commanders are to be taken seriously, then so should their claims that the CIA/US is responsible for the terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

Claims of US/CIA/RAW/Mossad involved in terrorism have been refuted by Pakistani politicians themselves at times.

Pakistan had been warned of growing extremist elements in Pak two decades back. Not only by India but also by the west, but Pakistan didn't pay attention. This is the result, and now the same problem is being blamed on us. So kiddish, isn't it?

 

[desiman]

India friendly? I seriously doubt this one.

He's more than happy and thankful to Taliban for this. If Taliban hadn't killed his wife, he wouldn't have become what he is today.


Claims of US/CIA/RAW/Mossad involved in terrorism have been refuted by Pakistani politicians themselves at times.

Pakistan had been warned of growing extremist elements in Pak two decades back. Not only by India but also by the west, but Pakistan didn't pay attention. This is the result, and now the same problem is being blamed on us. So kiddish, isn't it?

well said, even i believe that Zardari looks much more happy now, with his wife out of his way, he is no longer the puppet in his wifes hand that he was said to be. Im sure he is more than happy now, even he wouldnt have thought of ever coming the president. dont they say ek teer se do nishane lol

 

[jeypore]

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you meant to say in that post.

The structure of the ISI, as I explained, is clear, and it is one in which the ISI reports to the civilian government.

What I am saying is that putting Zardaris name to the ISI is False, as well as your BOLD statement of above of ISI reporting to Civilian Gov,t..

So back to our argument again, once in for all, ISI is backed up by the Pakistanie Army and It is supporting Afgani Talibans!!!!!!

AGNO you are clearly diverting from this sentence above, while the great member have clearly stated an article that proves otherwise to your arguement, which started this thread..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

India friendly? I seriously doubt this one.

Given his statements on Kashmiri insurgents, ties with India etc. I don't doubt it at all, but then you have already indicated that you don't intend to be very honest in your arguments with the attempted distortion of the reporting on Iraq.

He's more than happy and thankful to Taliban for this. If Taliban hadn't killed his wife, he wouldn't have become what he is today.

He wielded plenty of power when his wife was in charge - Mr. 10% remember. Other than a title, becoming a major target for terrorists, and the headaches of keeping the PPP in line, he gained little with his wifes death.

Claims of US/CIA/RAW/Mossad involved in terrorism have been refuted by Pakistani politicians themselves at times.

So have allegations of ISI and GoP involvement as institutions in supporting the Taliban, by senior US adminsitration and military officials.

Pakistan had been warned of growing extremist elements in Pak two decades back. Not only by India but also by the west, but Pakistan didn't pay attention. This is the result, and now the same problem is being blamed on us. So kiddish, isn't it?

Not really, you have clearly indicated that you believe what Taliban leaders have to say - I am merely being consistent and pointing out that if that is to be the case, then the Taliban should also be believed when they claim that the US is responsible for terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

What is 'kiddish' is cherry picking the claims made by the Taliban that suit you, and refusing to accept the ones that don't.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What I am saying is that putting Zardaris name to the ISI is False, as well as your BOLD statement of above of ISI reporting to Civilian Gov,t..

So back to our argument again, once in for all, ISI is backed up by the Pakistanie Army and It is supporting Afgani Talibans!!!!!!

AGNO you are clearly diverting from this sentence above, while the great member have clearly stated an article that proves otherwise to your arguement, which started this thread..

Sorry, but you continue to ignore the preposterous excerpt from the report that implicates Zardari, which means that it is the Zardari and the PPP that are running the show, not the ISI.

You have not responded to a single one of the points I raised, and unless you do, I will not be responding to you anymore on this thread.

 

[Bang Galore]

And lets see what else this report alleges:


So supposedly the same guy (President Zardari) whose wife was killed by the Taliban, and who is largely viewed as liberal, friendly to the US and India, and wants to 'assert civilian control' over Pakistan's intelligence agencies and military (tried to move the ISI under the Interior Ministry, headed by a Zardari lackey, and has reasserted the role of the Intelligence Bureau domestically, as well as reducing the number of 'military staff' it had), is eventually running the 'pro Taliban policy'.

Rather fantastic don't you think?

And if true, why call this an 'ISI supports Taliban'? Quite obviously if the President is on board this is a 'Zardari and PPP support Taliban', with the ISI merely implementing their policy - the ISI reports to the Prime Minister of Pakistan (Gillani) by the way, who is also considered very loyal to Zardari, albeit also considered a decent and honest man.

Wow ! Verbal skulduggery at its best.

Now the Taliban is one united unit? Was it the Afghan Taliban that was supposedly responsible for Benazir Bhutto's death? I have read through numerous posts on innumerable threads that the Pakistani & afghan Taliban are different creatures and now are you arguing that they are the same? Also I would enjoy a clarification on the point made by many here that Zardari is a double faced conman who took advantage of his wife's tragic demise to obtain power for himself and is a person of no morals & few scruples. Now supposedly he develops all of that when it comes to dealing with the Afghan Taliban, something that he really may have no say in. Zardari cannot be all that when you want and be the complete opposite when that might better suit the argument.


What is Pakistan's position on the Afghan Taliban? Is Pakistan not supportive of their inclusion within the Afghan power structure? If so, why the surprise that there might be contacts with them?

I'm not commenting on the veracity of those statements as reported but the fact that this was compiled & released by the LSE must count for something while rating the article for credibility. Surely you are not going to argue that the LSE too is involved in anti Pakistani propaganda?

As for it being "fantastic",most stories about Pakistan as also the convoluted fantasies of conspiracies imagined while rebutting them qualify for the use of that epithet.

 

[SMC]

my friend Pakistani's also try to shove their point down our throat, so its the same on both sides. Its human nature really, we all have our own versions of truth and will defend them till death, its not about nationalities. The point is that when reputable institutions such as LSE release information, they do not do it because of emotions or personal prejudice but because of pure academic reasons. Such studies are looked at by the best in the field before being released to the public so this is as close to reality that we can get. Now we can totally write this off because our own personal reasoning wont allow us to look at the report in a constructive way. We are too busy nullifying this report than to actually spend time to understand it. No proof can ever be enough my friend as our ego's will always stop us from seeing the truth even if its standing naked in front of us.

That, in simple terms, is a very simplistic argument.

Let me deal with a few points one by one.

The point is that when reputable institutions such as LSE release information, they do not do it because of emotions or personal prejudice but because of pure academic reasons.

That's a very naive argument. Universities can be used for propaganda by those who need the propaganda to be done. It may or may not be for purely academic reason. Welcome to the real world. Where governments lie and not all information is released to the public. And propaganda and false information is rife.

And here this is not just about academic reasons. There's more to it. Do you think, hypothetically, a report about UK being supporting terrorists would be published? It wouldn't because it wouldn't be in the interests of British government.

Such studies are looked at by the best in the field before being released to the public so this is as close to reality that we can get.

This is simplistic and naive to the highest order. I am kind of lost for words on this one. Again, this one is not just about academics. Lots of other things at work here, such as interests. A half-baked report that half proves ISI involvement would be published by these guys since it suits them. Whereas even if they had proof that UK was supporting terrorists, it wouldn't be published.

We are too busy nullifying this report than to actually spend time to understand it. No proof can ever be enough my friend as our ego's will always stop us from seeing the truth even if its standing naked in front of us

But what truth is standing in front of us? That ISI supports Taliban? In these things, a university can do no better investigation than states such as US themselves. And if they are not sure about it, what makes these guys so certain?

 

[SMC]

Wow ! Verbal skulduggery at its best.

Now the Taliban is one united unit? Was it the Afghan Taliban that was supposedly responsible for Benazir Bhutto's death? I have read through numerous posts on innumerable threads that the Pakistani & afghan Taliban are different creatures and now are you arguing that they are the same? complete opposite when that might better suit the argument.

But then, the opposite side of the coin - Indians maintain that TTP and Afghan taliban are the same. So in light of that, what's your personal opinion on what AM said? Considering you probably have said that TTP and Afghan Taliban are the same.

 

[jeypore]

Sorry, but you continue to ignore the preposterous excerpt from the report that implicates Zardari, which means that it is the Zardari and the PPP that are running the show, not the ISI.

You have not responded to a single one of the points I raised, and unless you do, I will not be responding to you anymore on this thread.

Ok, likewise from me also. But dodging a ball does not mean you get away...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wow ! Verbal skulduggery at its best.

Weren't the Indians and the Americans arguing they are one and the same? And now you want to argue they are not the same because it suits your argument? So I'd say the 'verbal skulduggery' being engaged in is by you.

How about you let me know whether you are retracting from the position that India and the US/NATO have endorsed for all this time, that the Taliban, whether Afghan or Pakistan, are the same, before arguing anything else on that issue.

Also I would enjoy a clarification on the point made by many here that Zardari is a double faced conman who took advantage of his wife's tragic demise to obtain power for himself and is a person of no morals & few scruples.

That you would have to ask those who made those allegations. I do not recall ever making that allegation.

What is Pakistan's position on the Afghan Taliban? Is Pakistan not supportive of their inclusion within the Afghan power structure? If so, why the surprise that there might be contacts with them?

Contacts to facilitate reconciliation, yes. Pakistan has officially admitted as much. But the President of Pakistan visiting a jail housing captured Taliban leaders, publicly (since jail staff were informed about the visit and told to prepare for it) and then pledging support for Taliban operations and the release of their leaders, is a little too preposterous a story.

I'm not commenting on the veracity of those statements as reported but the fact that this was compiled & released by the LSE must count for something while rating the article for credibility. Surely you are not going to argue that the LSE too is involved in anti Pakistani propaganda?

I am questioning the accounts by Taliban commanders, that the entire LSE report is based on, and pointing out that the Taliban have made very far fetched claims about NATO/US as well, and that one cannot cherry pick those claims as being credible that fit your particular POV, and discard those that do not.

As for it being "fantastic",most stories about Pakistan as also the convoluted fantasies of conspiracies imagined while rebutting them qualify for the use of that epithet.

If the stories are 'fantastic', and set a pattern, then the refutations are not necessarily so.

 

[jagjitnatt]

But then, the opposite side of the coin - Indians maintain that TTP and Afghan taliban are the same. So in light of that, what's your personal opinion on what AM said? Considering you probably have said that TTP and Afghan Taliban are the same.

India believes every terrorist outfit should be terminated regardless of its Afghan Taliban or Pak Taliban or whatever. For India, a terrorist is a terrorist.

But you believe they are different groups with different ideas. So if Afghan Taliban killed Bhutto why would Zardari have problems with Pak Taliban?

They are different groups with the same goal - terror.