Pakistan's intelligence failure at controlling domestic narratives effectively and poor information warfare

[PradoTLC]

70 years and still trying to figure out what's wrong?

For all it's reputation (former ISI chief was/is an advisor to UAE), what has ISI done for Pakistan?

@Trailer23 @PradoTLC

1) make you jealous by earning a high salary...

2) Capturing idiot RAW dodo like Yadav

3) Smashing all organized terrorism in 2015.

Pakistanis always think their problem is their image. I have tried pointing out to people no amount of advertising will work in the long run if the underlying product is rotten

wrong

look at india... it is rotten to the core yet western boobs have positive image till they actually get to know indians

 

[Enigma SIG]

1) make you jealous by earning a high salary...

Generals think like this? No one in their right mind would actually be jealous for someone to earn a decent living if they do their fvcking job and ONLY their job.

2) Capturing idiot RAW dodo like Yadav
3) Smashing all organized terrorism in 2015.

That's literally their job description; and they earned kudos from the nation for it. If they can't even do the basics then they should commit hara kiri. Damn I forgot that was to regain lost honor, and these imbeciles had none.

 

[TheSolution]

Generals think like this? No one in their right mind would actually be jealous for someone to earn a decent living if they do their fvcking job and ONLY their job.


That's literally their job description; and they earned kudos from the nation for it. If they can't even do the basics then they should commit hara kiri. Damn I forgot that was to regain lost honor, and these imbeciles had none.

Pakistanis really need to stop overhyping the most basic things, it just sets a low bar and makes these dudes complacent

They deserve celebration when they do something comparatively worthy of celebration - literally at a genuine level only thing that comes to mind here is PAF and their performance in 2019

Most other things deserve criticism more than anything

 

[M. Sarmad]

It's not an intelligence failure... they lack the means and capabilities to control narratives, and they are not the decision-makers.

In fact, the Pakistani Army never exercised absolute control over narratives.... They however wielded significant influence due to the prevailing perception that the Army was the utmost patriotic and loyal entity within, viewed as saviors preventing potentially detrimental actions by the 'evil' politicians.

The country's intelligentsia, the ones ideally tasked with guiding narratives, consistently opposed the Army's involvement in politics. However, the general public, believing in the Pak Army's commitment to national interests, overlooked its transgressions.

The actual failure of the Army and intelligence after April 2022 stems from their remarkable failure to uphold the image of prioritizing national interests over personal or corporate agendas. Until they can somehow restore this image, their ability to shape narratives will remain compromised. Given the current approach of treating ordinary citizens as adversaries and labeling critics of the Army's unlawful actions as traitors, the prospects of restoring the lost prestige are virtually non-existent.

 

[TheSolution]

It's not an intelligence failure... they lack the means and capabilities to control narratives, and they are not the decision-makers.

In fact, the Pakistani Army never exercised absolute control over narratives.... They however wielded significant influence due to the prevailing perception that the Army was the utmost patriotic and loyal entity within, viewed as saviors preventing potentially detrimental actions by the 'evil' politicians.

The country's intelligentsia, the ones ideally tasked with guiding narratives, consistently opposed the Army's involvement in politics. However, the general public, believing in the Pak Army's commitment to national interests, overlooked its transgressions.

The actual failure of the Army and intelligence after April 2022 stems from their remarkable failure to uphold the image of prioritizing national interests over personal or corporate agendas. Until they can somehow restore this image, their ability to shape narratives will remain compromised. Given the current approach of treating ordinary citizens as adversaries and labeling critics of the Army's unlawful actions as traitors, the prospects of restoring the lost prestige are virtually non-existent.

Agreed all on the army thing, a lot of the power they yielded was actually given by the people to them and they shot themselves in the foot.

But moving away from the army - and more onto the ISI and its handling on public perception of terror groups like TTP, BLA, Afghan deportation operation, IEA, military operations, etc.

I guess the above was more of what I was trying to get at here because states like Turkey, China, etc or even Israel in regards to Hamas would not give space for propaganda to flourish that is sympathetic to such anti-state terrorist groups like TTP/BLA the way Pakistan allows it to go unchallenged.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

فوج اپنا کام چھوڑ کر باقی سب کررہی ہے۔ ادارےسب کررہے ہیں بس اپنا کام نہیں کررہے۔
تو پھر ایسا ہی ہوگا۔

 

[TheSolution]

فوج اپنا کام چھوڑ کر باقی سب کررہی ہے۔ ادارےسب کررہے ہیں بس اپنا کام نہیں کررہے۔
تو پھر ایسا ہی ہوگا۔

بالکل ایسا ہی ہے۔ کاش ایسا نہ ہوتا۔

 

[M. Sarmad]

Agreed all on the army thing, a lot of the power they yielded was actually given by the people to them and they shot themselves in the foot.

But moving away from the army - and more onto the ISI and its handling on public perception of terror groups like TTP, BLA, Afghan deportation operation, IEA, military operations, etc.

I guess the above was more of what I was trying to get at here because states like Turkey, China, etc or even Israel in regards to Hamas would not give space for propaganda to flourish that is sympathetic to such anti-state terrorist groups like TTP/BLA the way Pakistan allows it to go unchallenged.

As they say, tell a lie once and all your truths become questionable

And the humanitarian crisis of coerced Afghan deportation should not be conflated with the existential threats posed by terrorist entities like TTP, BLA, etc. In the latter case, we are the victims, whereas in the former, we are the oppressors.

 

[LeGenD]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

Due to prevalence of corruption, deceit, mismanagement of important issues including the War On Terror saga, and political experiments. Many have seen it all and are not easy to fool or no longer care.

Israeli bombing have claimed many innocent lives in Gaza for sure. But what (we) see in Gaza is similar to some of the worst urban warfare developments in Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine. Hamas is said to have created substantial underground infrastructure with entrance points in many buildings to move men and munitions. Israeli nationals might be concerned about their safety and how to navigate through these turbulent times - these concerns can provide sufficient basis for national coherence but Netanyahu have lost his political appeal. You should check Hareetz for information.

But one can contend that both Israel and India have better national coherence than in Pakistan.

Pakistani TV channels are already being arm-twisted to promote pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives but how many watch these TV channels? Many simply want to understand what is true and what can be done to address Pakistani issues. The typical RAW/CIA/MOSSAD blaming themes will not cut it anymore because many are convinced that much of the rot is internal. The Establishment has much soul-searching to do.

 

[TheSolution]

Due to prevalence of corruption, deceit, and mismanagement of important issues. Many have seen it all and are not easy to fool or no longer care.

Israeli bombing have claimed many innocent lives in Gaza for sure. But what (we) see in Gaza is similar to some of the worst urban warfare developments in Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine. Hamas is said to have created substantial underground infrastructure with entrance points in many buildings to move men and munitions.

Israeli nationals might be concerned about their safety and how to navigate through these turbulent times - these concerns can provide sufficient basis for national coherence but Netanyahu have lost his political appeal. You should check Hareetz for information.

One can contend that both Israel and India have better national coherence than in Pakistan.

Pakistani TV channels are already being arm-twisted to promote pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives but how many watch these TV channels? Many simply want to understand what is true and what can be done to address Pakistani issues. The typical RAW/CIA/MOSSAD blaming themes will not cut it anymore because many are convinced that much of the rot is internal. The Establishment has much soul-searching to do.

Establishment is stuck in a boomer mentality. It thinks we are still in 1960s where you get a few TV channels to say a few words and done.

Nowadays things are more complicated and entire counter-narratives are being made on social media, and in fact the enemy is directly targeting the credibility of whoever you use to spread a certain idea. Things are a lot more complicated today. Our intelligence still operates like we are in the 60s.

As they say, tell a lie once and all your truths become questionable

And the humanitarian crisis of coerced Afghan deportation should not be conflated with the existential threats posed by terrorist entities like TTP, BLA, etc. In the latter case, we are the victims, whereas in the former, we are the oppressors.

I respect your opinion but I disagree with it respectfully too with the latter part.

Afghan refugees were welcomed with open arms for 40+ years, it wasn't until their racism and hatred ruined the sympathy people had that led to what is happening today.

If you invite a homeless man into your house out of goodwill and he begins to spit in your face and promise to burn it down, are you an oppressor for removing him?

 

[M. Sarmad]

I respect your opinion but I disagree with it respectfully too with the latter part.

Afghan refugees were welcomed with open arms for 40+ years, it wasn't until their racism and hatred ruined the sympathy people had that led to what is happening today.

If you invite a homeless man into your house out of goodwill and he begins to spit in your face and promise to burn it down, are you an oppressor for removing him?

Certainly, you're entitled to disagree with my opinions, and I can respect that. Despite my strong personal disapproval of Namak Haram Afghans, considering (most of) them among the most detestable, anti-Pakistan, and anti-Punjab vile creatures, I cannot let personal biases cloud my judgment. Expelling an Afghan born in Pakistan, not engaged in criminal activities, earning a fair livelihood, and forcibly seizing their assets, in my view, constitutes plain oppression.

 

[One_Nation]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

This is not "intelligence" problem. Intelligence doesn't build anything for countries.

States build narratives based on ideologies and goals that they honestly work on. This cannot be promoted through image building but actually working on it.
The problem with Pakistani elite is they don't believe in anything, not even religion. They just manufacture ideologies to hold their control. They have abused Islam, democracy etc. which has resulted in Pakistani state losing all moral standing. There are absolutely no basis left of Pakistan.

As a result, people will trust a gang with a mission (e.g. taliban) more than the state of Pakistan.

 

[Trailer23]

...what has ISI done for Pakistan?

@Trailer23 @PradoTLC

Honeytrapped horny bhakts like you for start...

 

[TNT]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

You cannot change internal narrative based on propaganda. Infact army have been very successful at it but it doesn't last forever. The thing is, you have to work for national interest and betterment of the people to get their backing. If the people feel they are opressed, marginalized and looked down upon, then they will start to hate the state, its institutions and handlers. Tell me, does Pakistani courts provide justice? No.. so ppl hate them... Does Pakistani police help the citizens? no, they r crooks, so ppl hate them. Does our establishment work for Pakistanis? No, so ppl will hate them.
I think its not failure of intelligence or propaganda, its just that our intelligence and institutions work on orders of others and cannot really do anything about it. Like they knew IK is very famous and ppl r behind him but they had to obey their masters. Similarly their propaganda worked for decades, made ppl trust them even after humiliation in 1971, they even handled the humiliation of 1999. Bht now with the social media and information age, its too difficult to keep lieing.

 

[RescueRanger]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed IMO.

Israel is going after someone foreign to them. Very easy to gain support.

Pakistani establishment is going after it's own people, how the heck are you going to peddle a narrative in that case?

If tomorrow another Abhinandan gets shot down, you better believe Kakar and Munir would be the next Alexanders.



As for all of this, the ISI is generally more focussed on HUMINT. Actually, every intelligence agency is, but we rely on it more so. There have been great strides recently though to incorporate technology into our intel setup, and you can see cases of that too.

But that is more for person specific cases. Like when you get picked up by a Black Vigo, the guy takes your mobile phone, connects it to his computer with a USB and voila, he has all your data.

But we still lag far behind psyops or internet campaigns of the kind the world is on. All we can do is pay some director a bit of money though ISPR and get a nationalistic, full of slogans movie. Nothing else.

Some guy at ISPR did have an idea of running Google Ads once, but after a month they stopped doing it for some reason. My guess is some boomer general thought what is this nonsense!



The state policy and actions should then be something that are aligned with what the people want.

The state leaders, officials, representatives should be the one who people want, not selected individuals who are compromised.

Getting the drift?

Our government right now is as far from representing us as a people as the Israeli government. Netanyahu has annexed Gaza, our estab has annexed the whole country, with some caveats ofc.

Great post.