Pakistan's Helicopter Problem

[Manindra]

Just like they gave it to Argentina...

That was Z-11 not Z-9 or MI-17

 

[Umair Nawaz]

man don't be that. Because I have an idea.

When the gov't many of these to Law Enforcement/army/Navy/air force/gendermerie. There's been a hell of a blackhawks. And now gov't doesn't wanna pay for it anymore, but still wants to buy.

Under the Turkish Utility Heli program. They chose sikorsky under the name of T-70 with ToT.

I mean Pakistan can join to that program!!!

we had ordered 40 black-hawks.
Lets see.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Author's logic: We don't have funds to buy helicopters, so lets develop our own helicopter, it will be free.

 

[Gentelman]

man don't be that. Because I have an idea.

When the gov't many of these to Law Enforcement/army/Navy/air force/gendermerie. There's been a hell of a blackhawks. And now gov't doesn't wanna pay for it anymore, but still wants to buy.

Under the Turkish Utility Heli program. They chose sikorsky under the name of T-70 with ToT.

I mean Pakistan can join to that program!!!

Even If PA have spare money it will be going in self propelled howizer and AKs,MRAP,Armed drones and other such major projects……
In Pakistan Army Aviation got the last number and PA is actually lokking forward towards UAVS for abti armour role because of their low RCS and har to discover and destroy features………
well now or later they will be comming towards T-129 or maybe T-130……
but no TOT and pronouncements in max 30-45 in mumbers in pieces……

 

[Gryphon]

we had ordered 40 black-hawks.

When?

Guys it says "UH-60 (potentionaly)" any infos regarding it?

For transport role, Pakistan is buying more Mi-17's from Russia
For light utility role, it is negotiating for 40 ex-German MBB Bo 105CBS-5

For attack role, Pak is planning to buy 15 T-129 ATAK from Turkey but requires US $500 million which it doesn't have..
For light attack role, 10 modified Eurocopter Fennec's (C3 variant) have been ordered from France and are likely to be delivered soon.

So, going for Black Hawk's is unlikely ..

16-18 helis = 1 sqd... also as per news PAA wants 2 sqds... and how did u even came to the conclusion of the figure?

US delivered Pakistan a squadron of 14 AH-1F Cobras in March 2010. So, having 15 T-129 ATAK in a squadron is no big deal ..

US transfers Cobra helicopters to Pakistan - GEO.tv

 

[HAIDER]

Actually only country which can help and built helis is Russia. They built good and tough platform. US tech is extremely expensive, plus lots of bugs attached with it. In helo everything is engine . And nobody makes engine except, Russia, US , France and may be Britain . Turkey and China both order engine for their platform . It take long time for delivery and many cases cost of platform goes beyond budget. End of day , Pakistan has to setup a plant, its last solution. After 2014 , Pakistan will need almost double the number of helicopter. Because after NATO withdrawal , Its Pakistan army who will secure border. Don't expect anything from Afghan National Army for border security.
Plus designated number of helo can not be moved from from Kashmir and Indian border. Eventhough lot of security work is been done by UAV.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

When?



For transport role, Pakistan is buying more Mi-17's from Russia
For light utility role, it is negotiating for 40 ex-German MBB Bo 105CBS-5

For attack role, Pak is planning to buy 15 T-129 ATAK from Turkey but requires US $500 million which it doesn't have..
For light attack role, 10 modified Eurocopter Fennec's (C3 variant) have been ordered from France and are likely to be delivered soon.

So, going for Black Hawk's is unlikely ..



US delivered Pakistan a squadron of 14 AH-1F Cobras in March 2010. So, having 15 T-129 ATAK in a squadron is no big deal ..

US transfers Cobra helicopters to Pakistan - GEO.tv

i read it in news somewhere. u can google it.

 

[Kompromat]

* Join TAI-129 ATAK,starting with a small batch production with full fleet procurement over a decade as the economy recovers.
* Join Z-20 Program with China as a development partner. The helo is in development stage and is based on UH-60. It can be a long term replacement for other platforms.

Z-20

 

[qamar1990]

Author's logic: We don't have funds to buy helicopters, so lets develop our own helicopter, it will be free.

it will be cheaper, what does this have to do with logic?

 

[Black Eagle 90]

Pakistan's helicopter fleet has been ageing and while infusion of new helicopters in the form of UH-60s (potentially), Mi-17s and others, there is a perceived shortage of airframes. This is due to the present war in the tribal areas, where helicopters are at a premium and their shortage is being felt while simultaneously rapidly ageing and depreciating the fleet. It is also due to the extreme topography of Pakistan's north, where an undeclared border conflict continues to consume resources against India.

Helicopters are also an important consideration in terms of the topographic scenario not only in the north but also to the east, where any future conflict with India requires conflicts across rivers and other natural barriers. In contrast to India's huge fleet of growing helicopters including now locally manufactured units, Pakistan has a long-term perceived need of maintaining a semblance of comparability.

One of the key features of the Pakistani helicopter fleet is the diversity of the helicopters available. These include AH-1s, IAR 330, Aerospatiale Alouettes, AS350, UH-1, Bell 412, 206 Jet Ranger, Mi-17s, Z-9s and more. This wide diversity of helicopters with often a small number of units of each type adds a great deal of maintenance and operational issues that adds both expense and consumes significant resources.

The attack helicopter presently in use is also ageing and rapidly losing its operational capability at a time it is needed the most. The AH-1s have been highly successful in FATA and Swat and their dwindling numbers is a serious cause of concern. Pakistan Army (PA) is presently looking at potential replacements including potentially the Z-10 and the Turkish T-129 but funds remain scarce and these deals seem far off. The point remains that even if such a deal goes through, PA will not be able to buy the quantities that the present operational conditions and the long term requirement vis-a-vis the topography in the North and the challenge from the East pose.

Perhaps the answer to this quandary is to replicate the JF-17 and Al-Khalid programs and build an equivalent helicopter plan. One possible solution is to look at importing blue-prints and know-how coupled with joint development. Such a solution could find a partner in China or Turkey. Yet another solution exists.


Given the geo-strategic situation, the US cannot be seen to contribute much post-2014 when their troops leave Afghanistan. Meanwhile, the new Iranian government is showing positive overtures to Pakistan. Iran produces UH-1 / AH-1 helicopters and has the blue prints and production line. While Iranian helicopters are of doubtful quality, if manufacturing of these can be obtained under the table, Pakistan could have an ideal platform to begin helicopter production at minimal cost. Utilizing better technology and higher quality machine tools, Pakistan would produced significantly higher quality aircraft. If technology partnerships can be made with South Africa, China and Turkey in terms of sub-systems and components, the AH-1s and UH-1s could be updated to a competitive offering.

In addition, given the huge market of AH-1s and UH-1s globally, this is one product that can be sold as replenishment, spares or even new procurement. It is after all, much easier to add an existing type rather than procure a new type which are often significantly more complex and costly. The present US AH-1 Super Cobras offered have also evolved significantly and are not equivalent to the original AH-1s so the path is clear to make a meaningful inroad into the international market.

It is often said that with every challenge comes an opportunity. The present challenge in FATA, the decades long war in Siachin, and the new threat posed by India with its wild procurement of advanced helicopters and local production may just be the challenge that can become an opportunity.

Better for PAA to talk to PAC for license production of Helicopters from EU like China did but on a quicker basis. This can help them to sell American ones.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

it will be cheaper, what does this have to do with logic?

So according to you developing a new helicopter and producing it in small numbers will be cheaper than buying a already successful and produced helicopter? Ever heard of the term economies of scale?

 

[Neptune]

Well, Z-20 is based at S-70s that China had purchased from US. As I could not find any source that indicates US's ToT. And it's much lighter than S-70. 10 tones. It'll be classified as light utility.

T-70 is based at UH-60M (few parts are from S-70&#304. In cooperation and ToT with Sikorsky Aircraft Co. To be used in light/medium utility roles. And this one's the official page of the T-70 program.

https://www.tai.com.tr/en/project/turkish-utility-helicopter

I wish the best for PK. But if she went with sikorsky. PAF should not go with S-70 variants. But the UH-60M


@Aeronaut mate, Z-20 is lighter than S-70 and is based at S-70s that are in active service of China. Not UH-60.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

we just cant locally manufacture everything that moves we dont have the base , resources, technical know how , money, work ethic and too much of gairut and over flowing religious fever. so just enjoy the pictures of the helicopters and pray that the helicopters that we already got keep flying and dont see the day of pak railways.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

That was Z-11 not Z-9 or MI-17

Z-11 is a variant of Z-9 which is an ASW heli... in short a license produced french heli with Chinese upgrades etc.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

* Join TAI-129 ATAK,starting with a small batch production with full fleet procurement over a decade as the economy recovers.
* Join Z-20 Program with China as a development partner. The helo is in development stage and is based on UH-60. It can be a long term replacement for other platforms.

Z-20

just question
how much we will have to spend in order to get the partnership ??not including manufacturing facilities and other costs