Pakistan's Hatf 9 promoted as a counter to India's Prahaar

[Srinivas]

All is fair in war but crying
if 26/11 was terrorist act (although it was an inside job) what do you call 71 war, You can pretend to be all nice but reality of 71 is well known.

1971 mukthi Bahni was because of a massacre started by operation search light, what reason will you give for 26/11??

 

[xyxmt]

1971 mukthi Bahni was because of a massacre started by operation search light, what reason will you give for 26/11??

71 did not end in 71 its on going, 71 is the reason even Pakistani dogs hate you

 

[Srinivas]

71 did not end in 71 its on going, 71 is the reason even Pakistani dogs hate you

I pity those dogs.

71 is not the reason, the real reason is Pakistan's survival, and in the process making an enemy out of India. If 71 is the real reason why your history is different from rest of the world??

Don't you think you people are studying some twisted facts so that future generations will hate India and forget about Pakistan's short comings??

 

[Kloitra]

All is fair in war but crying
if 26/11 was terrorist act (although it was an inside job) what do you call 71 war, You can pretend to be all nice but reality of 71 is well known.

Barbaric Gujrat Massacre - The Truth Behind The Story

if your people can do this, they can do what they did in 71 with Bangalis
you didnt win 71 men to men, you won by killing countless bangalis hence Isolating Pakistani army

Trying to hide behind all those conspiracy theories won't do you any good. Neither would comparing a state sponsored army executed genocide with riots (which have been part of subcontinental history). It wasn't India that explicitly supported terrorism in Afghan/Kashmir. Not India which claimed 'non-state' actors as a part of it's strategies - bleed by a thousand cuts, was it?

Talk about being self-respecting and brave, it wasn't Indian army which was so scared that it had to pretend to be militants in 99'.

And yeah, 26/11 was inside job and a conspiracy against Pakistan, just like Osama and Malala, and a thousand other!. Pakistan never supported any terrorist, not in 2008, not in Kashmir, not in Punjab, not in Afghan, never! It is an innocent, 'pure' country...

 

[Edevelop]

Nasr/Hatf 9 range=60km

Prahaar range=150km.

India Wins.

Really ? Are you comparing 150 to 60 km range ?

BTW more Pakistani resources will be spent on this. More stress on their economy.

Even a range of as small as 10 km is enough for you. We are on borders and this missile is supposed to be battlefield !

And please don't start a lecture on resources and economy. Rather it is you who should be focused more on such thing. You growth rate of 3.2% in a population of 1.2 billion is pathetic and moreover your poverty level is more than whole African continent.

 

[Secur]

If that was true then, it is true now to some extent. Given the extent of Indian armed forces consolidation, I can understand a case where India gets in 40 kms in a few sectors before Pakistan can bog it down with conventional forces without going nuclear. It might as well happen for India too as was witnessed in Kargil and India did not go nuclear.



I do know that all the Kargil fighting took place in Indian territory. My argument is that it was still in a tolerable intrusion into India and India did not go nuclear.

I didn't initially understand this part of your logic
Pakistan crosses over into Indian territory and not calculate a nuclear retaliation, but
India crosses over into Pakistani territory and expect a nuclear retaliation just because it has Nasr.

Now that you clarify that it is not going to be at the drop of a hat but at that threshold. That is my argument against the use of Nasr or its insurance potential. CSD or whatever can still happen in that tolerable limit where nuclear option won't be used by Pakistan.

Now when that limit is reached, Nasr is going to be of little use. You can as well go all nuclear with an all out attack as you can very well expect a massive retaliation based on India's doctrine.

My case: Your nuclear weapons are a deterrence, not Nasr.
PA can't just use Nasr and expect no retaliation. Hence using Nasr makes PA the initiator of the nuclear conflict and not India.
Hence Nasr is not an insurance. A threat of an all out Nuclear war is.

Yes , that is true even now . But the conventional disparity has grown disproportionately in favor of India in the last two decades , it isn't what it used to be then . Surely , the conventional forces of Pakistan can withstand something as relatively small as a few IBG's even with its current capability today , but an army will plan for all scenarios including the worst case ones . Whatever India can muster today , it is increasing its capability day by day and soon the forces that can be mobilized quickly for a shallow strike will grow in size and the CSD threat will rise further , now we do have to plan for that . You are talking 40-50 km again , without having any idea of what it would mean . India didn't go nuclear because of its high thresholds and since the conventional forces were enough , what other logic lies there to go nuclear and initiate the MAD if you can control the situation without it ? The weapons of last resort , they are . Use the same logic for Pakistan .

Hey ! You can neither guarantee or assure me or anyone in this country by any means , that the Indians aren't going to cross the nuclear thresholds or put the country's existence and integrity not in danger , that is the problem . There's just no way to know them - the intentions or to use your word ' tolerable limit ' , how does India know whats tolerable for its opposition and how does it convince the opposition to allow to attack it and let it be invaded ? Explain me this thing . Consider " Nasr and the TNW " as the final warning from Pakistan to retreat and save both countries , that is all , a gradual escalation thing instead of a sudden " doomsday " scenario from massive nuclear exchange or how it is today , ensuring that the border isn't crossed even for a limited scale conflict in the first place . The rest of SPD will go to the immediate launch/high alert state in the meantime . I am aware at that time , what the mood will be , in both capitals . Islamabad expects retaliation but it also puts the Indians in a dilemma to continue and risk a billion and retreat and save them after crossing the border , since its the few IBG's being attacked in Pakistani territory - small number of troops . I explained why India doesn't want to fight an all-out war in great detail , but it appears that it was in vain . You are failing to understand why countries have high or low thresholds , nothing more .

The problem is fanboys regards their armies as some ready to die and full of bravado, while the truth is they do fear and they do love their existence and their family existence.

The problem is that the fanboys watch a lot of Indian television and hence start to believe in such childish things , underestimating the enemy and overestimating themselves in the meantime . Otherwise explain why did we go nuclear in the first place then if we never plan to use it ? For them to serve our deterrence and if they cant , we all know what happens in mutually assured destruction . As for the " not ready to die and lacking bravado " thing , maybe the Indian generals/planners know better of the psyche of their Pakistani counterparts having tested their resolve four time and found it firm and strong . Every one fears for its existence and has the " self preservation " thing built in , but what if it itself is in danger ? If it cant ensure its safety , then it will make sure that neither can the enemy - ever read the Samson Option ? . If the existence and integrity of Pakistan is in danger , the country will not hesitate to start a nuclear exchange , that is all . Something which has kept Indians from crossing the border during their both mobilizations . Read and ponder what kept away Indian Army from attacking my country and cross our border in the last four encounters ( '87 , '99 , '01 , '08 ) . I explained it above to a member .

 

[MilSpec]

@Secur : What if CSD and IBG's are just hokum, what if there is just Air Interdiction and IBG movements never come... Limited warfare as defined, does that cross any thresholds? or is armor movement upto lahore the only discretionary crossing of thresholds...

 

[Secur]

@Secur : What if CSD and IBG's are just hokum, what if there is just Air Interdiction and IBG movements never come... Limited warfare as defined, does that cross any thresholds? or is armor movement upto lahore the only discretionary crossing of thresholds...

Well , isn't that an all out war then ? Not a shallow strike or a limited intensity conflict as envisioned in the doctrine . I do not understand your ' middle point of neither ' . The thresholds aren't very clearly defined in the public domain though a recent interview hints at some " red lines " . Whats a limited warfare as per you if you are talking of armor movement upto Lahore ? The CSD puts a dilemma for both sides , but first of all and the major one , its India's turn to face it when considering to ' start it all ' in the first place , before crossing the border due to TNW's and the sorta gradual escalation policy on the other side , well that is an advantage and a massive one at that .

 

[MilSpec]

Well , isn't that an all out war then ? Not a shallow strike or a limited intensity conflict as envisioned in the doctrine . I do not understand your ' middle point of neither ' . The thresholds aren't very clearly defined in the public domain though a recent interview hints at some " red lines " . Whats a limited warfare as per you if you are talking of armor movement upto Lahore ? The CSD puts a dilemma for both sides , but first of all and the major one , its India's turn to face it when considering to ' start it all ' in the first place , before crossing the border due to TNW's and the sorta gradual escalation policy on the other side , well that is an advantage and a massive one at that .

Just for the sake of argument ,assume a Major terror strike, In retaliation Indian army mobilizes, movement of Ibg's is preceded by heavy air interdiction, So Indian airforce mounts the attacks but, army does is stand ground instead of moving into enemy territory which is already anticipated by PA.... Instead of CSD, just punitive strikes on High value targets.... Albeit far fetched, all future conflicts in my opinion are going to be Syrian styled heavy sectarian cloaked insurgencies, what would pakistan do for such low intensity styled internal conflicts...

 

[Secur]

@sandy_3126 Well you changed the scenario almost completely from your previous one which was something that didn't really made much sense , atleast to me . What are those targets ? The answer to the only punitive air strikes scenario is the same actually , is the war fighting and nuclear strike capability being dented/neutralized so that the Pakistan Army isn't able to respond effectively , to any threat by any means ? For one , this is what CSD envisages . In other words , simply meaning to be left on the mercy of the adversary afterwards . If such , then a threshold has already naturally been crossed since the existence and integrity of the country is in danger . Keep one thing in mind at all times - there's no way to gauge the enemy's intentions so obviously the Pakisanis due to their limitations and low threholds resulting from that , are still likely to be the ones to pull the trigger first . The only way to ensure that one doesn't lose , is to not play in a war that can quickly go nuclear .

You may not like to believe it but contrary to popular belief in India and the West , the state of Pakistan isn't threatened/endangered by any internal conflict at the moment , since the Baluch insurgency has nothing more than a nuisance value and the Talibans are contained in the tribal areas more or less and still mourning the death of their last leader and a few hit and runs aren't going to cut it . The picture isn't that rosy but it isn't that gloomy either . The ground reality for Pakistan is quite different than what you see on the US television , anyways leave it for another thread . Internal conflicts and the strategies to deal with them are different things altogether beyond the scope of the thread .

 

[Pukhtoon]

Forget who invented the shortest range missile first, although India' Prithvi was fifteen years back 350 mile range and is in the categorically in the short/shortest range missiles.

The key point is which one is more accurate and reliable and which one will launch and hit in 6 minutes interval.

Then again, Pakistan claims more than it can deliver.

They may claim everything nice about themselves and their missiles which are Chinese copy anyway.

The irony is that the Pakistani leaders may find out as General Musharraf did in 1999, during the Kargil battle, when he asked his strategic forces commander to get the missiles ready for action; the latter told him that the missiles are not ready. Although the Pakistani propaganda had been saying that their missiles are ready for action five years before that.

The above may happen again.

Link ? or rants ?

 

[gslv mk3]

Even a range of as small as 10 km is enough for you. We are on borders and this missile is supposed to be battlefield !

And please don't start a lecture on resources and economy. Rather it is you who should be focused more on such thing. You growth rate of 3.2% in a population of 1.2 billion is pathetic and moreover your poverty level is more than whole African continent.

Haha so typical @cb4 response....trolling about 'growth rate'...

 

[acid rain]

Low range Battle field nuke missiles are a joke especially against a nuclear state.

The fact that Pakistan has tested this missile multiple times over last few months points to the ffact they are taking it seriously.

The doctrine with the disproportionate retaliation seems to be to decimate forward armor or strike brigades with a nuclear strike using battlefield nukes.

 

[truthlover]

Thats not where the biggest threat will be.
That will be at Lahore and nearby areas.

Well in that case we will use our long range missiles like ghauri and shaeeen which will land right on your bigger cities like delhi and mumbai and you will smell burning hindu flesh everywhere.We have all means to get you.So stop day dreaming from your slum)
No doubt when it comes to making stupid and hilarious assumptions bhartis are second to none)

 

[Edevelop]

Haha so typical @cb4 response....trolling about 'growth rate'...

Pakistan surpasses India's GDP growth rate