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Pakistan's Founder Jinnah: Tragic Hero

Well I don't blame him. It's impossible not be jealous of Mr. Jinnah's devilishly handsome looks and devastating charisma.

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Do i look like a gay to you that i would be captivated by "devilishly handsome" baba? was Jinnah my class fellow or rival and were we competing for a girl or what i would be jealous of him?. For God sake he was a bony-faced old man of my great grandfather times, dont act like a nerdy fangirl. I have read that he was cold introvert, mistaken for being arrogant, smoking cigarettes might be looking "cool" for you but it was deteriorating his health, baba-e-qaum had smoking problems. S

Now coming to the serious tone , i think Jinnah sahab was not man of deep vision and philosophical mind, he was just a sharp lawyer who was doing politics for time pass for first two or three decades. Jab congress may Dal nahi gali then he resigned and gave some attention to Muslim League. I think some one gave him idea or he himself realized that that talk more about muslims and islam in speeches, it would work. And it worked. I doubt that he was even remotely interested in religion but he was sharp enough to know that it is necessary tool for his politics and achieving goals. He promised Pir of manki Sharif that there would be sharia in pakistan and to secular person like Sikander Mirza, he said 'no such non-sense will be imposed in Pakistan.The British facilitated Jinnah's and Nehru's dreams , both of whom desired partition. Going with partition, was good decision by Jinnah, no one would dispute that.

My some criticism on post-Independence Jinnah

1- Jinnah stirred Urdu-bengali conflict

2- He acted like a civilian dedicator

3- For petty reason like seat of Governor General, he antagonized Lord Mount Baitan. Mr. Introvert coldly rejected the friendly gestures from Viceroy who then approached Nehru , who was then favored in partition plan. Kashmir and Gurdaspur went into hands of India due to poor judgment and decisions by Jinanh. The man signed Radcliffe award without even knowing the exact details of drawing of border.
 
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RAW taking full advantage of disastrous situation created by "illiterate people and dictators" and making anti Pakistan propaganda by making good use of its assets disguised as "Secular" and "Nationalist" Pilot Officer .
LONG LIVE GEN.RAHEEL SHAREEF
And people like you aren,t any different from talibans
 
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Do i look like a gay to you

Awkward question, more awkward answer.

Now coming to the serious tone , i think Jinnah sahab was not man of deep vision and philosophical mind, he was just a sharp lawyer who was doing politics for time pass for first two or three decades. Jab congress may Dal nahi gali then he resigned and gave some attention to Muslim League. I think some one gave him idea or he himself realized that that talk more about muslims and islam in speeches, it would work. And it worked. I doubt that he was even remotely interested in religion but he was sharp enough to know that it is necessary tool for his politics and achieving goals. He promised Pir of manki Sharif that there would be sharia in pakistan and to secular person like Sikander Mirza, he said 'no such non-sense will be imposed in Pakistan.The British facilitated Jinnah's and Nehru's dreams , both of whom desired partition. Going with partition, was good decision by Jinnah, no one would dispute that.

Since you've admitted that these are conclusions that you came to through exercising your own mental faculties, one could just give you a pass for reaching laughable claims by fault of possessing sub-par cognitive capacities. But that's no fun. So,

The man had a vision deep enough to realize the need for a separate homeland for his people (which the people themselves never did) and then deeper still to get it against all odds, all on his own, manoeuvring against everything that was thrown at him. It was deep enough to realize that he must do it 'legally' and constitutionally making it clear for every generation of Pakistani to come that no matter how difficult the task you need not stoop to committing wrong to achieve it. He alone showed how the means justify the end as much as the later justifies the former.

He wasn't a philosopher, and thank God for that. Indian Muslims had been churning out "philosophers" like rabbits. From as great as Iqbal to as impotent as Bahadur Shah Zafar, sitting at their desks trying to change their people through the power of the pen. Their people who weren't only stubborn in their unwholesome ways but ones who had little clue of their workings or what was being said. What change have these philosophers brought about, even till today? Zilch.
Philosophers aren't leaders, men of action are. Praised be our lucky stars that Mr. Jinnah was the man of action and what a man he was. The one man of action that these people have ever produced and the one man that they needed. He didn't sit at his desk he went out and changed the destiny of his people, how many men in the world can be accredited with that? The only one in our history who could have done it and it is indeed what he did.

You know it's one thing to come up with ludicrous conspiracies and then there's making up sentences out of one's rear end. There is no confusion as to why Mr. Jinnah left congress, read if you haven't yet. His daal was more than gali hui.

The only claim that he ever made about Pakistan was that it would be a land free for the Muslims of the subcontinent to live in peace, without prejudice and according to their religion (I have wrote alot on this in my previous posts, for heaven's sake learn to read). Not ONCE did he ever promise an Islamic theocratic state. In fact the man is on record (in a public speech) that Pakistan would in no case be a theocracy. His stance on this was so well known and absolute that the religious Mulahs and parties of the time (e.g. Maulana Maudoodi and jamat-e-Islami) termed him Kafir-e-Azam and Pakistan as Kafiristan. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar and should present proof.

ps: Oh yea, he was in politics to pass his time until he had passed all of it just for politics. :what:


Apart from the clear fissures in your below arguments resulting from the falacy of first claiming that Mr. Jinnah did nothing except for having drawing room talks to holding him responsible for all the following, I'll explain how your claims are absolutely nonsensical:

My some criticism on post-Independence Jinnah

1- Jinnah stirred Urdu-bengali conflict

LoL, how?

2- He acted like a civilian dedicator

LoL, how?

3- For petty reason like seat of Governor General, he antagonized Lord Mount Baitan. Mr. Introvert coldly rejected the friendly gestures from Viceroy who then approached Nehru , who was then favored in partition plan.

Now I'm sure that you don't ever read anything, not even my previous posts.

The man was offered the Prime-minister's seat of the whole united India if he let go of the claim for Pakistan, he refused. Read my previous posts for the details. This example is pretty much it for any uneducated opinion peddler who thinks that Mr. Jinnah was out for power. In the words of Mountbatten himself Mr. Jinnah, unlike the congress, was cold and all business which let him know that this man was not only a formidable adversary but that he would not ever compromise on his cause or be intimidated. Instead he intimidated the crap out of Mountbatten. I don't know how you do things but I'd rather not have my leader licking the colonial power's boots. Nehru was favoured because Mountbatten's wife (himself a poof and a spineless one at that) had a really personal relationship with Nehru.

Kashmir and Gurdaspur went into hands of India due to poor judgment and decisions by Jinanh. The man signed Radcliffe award without even knowing the exact details of drawing of border.

What judgement? What decisions? Explain. The Radcliffe award defined the principles on which the border was to be drawn. The award did not give those areas to India. Why should he have not signed it? If the British went against the signed treaty and ran before anything could be done about it then it was their treachery, the great Quaid could not have done anything about it. Furthermore, the precarious position of East Punjab in the division was well known throughout the region; the local Lahoris were afraid that even Lahore might go to India. The British for fears of a full blown civil war erupting packed their bags and left running a full year earlier than was planned, leaving a bucket full of issues unresolved; Pakistan's share not being given to it, border disputes, asset disputes and the millions of deaths that were incurred on both sides of the border. Pakistan was made and left in such a situation that no one in the world expected it to last, except for one man and that man made it last through it and beyond.

Kashmir was a completely different issue. It was as clear as the light of day to whom Kashmir belonged. Mr. Jinnah could not have done jack about the treachery of the Dogra ruler, except order the Pakistani forces into Kashmir, which he did. Had the militias not resorted to looting the Dogra establishments on their way they would have easily reached Srinagar before the Indian troops and denied them any chance of establishing a foothold in the valley. What could have the man done?

At least read a little before you post, it will enable you to come up with more believable lies.
 
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Jinnah was not a tragic hero but just a Hero. People mislead others by omitting the perspective in which he made his famous statement for accepting all irrespective of faith in the polity. The speech was made in the backdrop of great slaughters going on. As a humanist Jinnah had sought to contain this with his speech.
 
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The sad part is that Pakistan became exactly what did not want it to be. India, which he rather foolishly spurned became exactly what he wanted Pakistan to be.
That is incorrect. He wanted a nation of Islam.
India did not become what Jinnah wanted because India tried becoming secular.


The only gripe would be Pakistan is not Islamic enough. It is not run by Shariah and Islamic principles. Once that is accomplished, Pakistan indeed would be what Jinnah wanted.
 
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I detect sarcasm. But on a serious note, Jinnah wanted a secular nation ruled by Muslims, which in my opinion is a false presumption. That is why this experiment failed.
No sarcasm.

Jinnah wanted a Muslim state, not a secular state with majority Muslims. Iqbal is quite categorical there as well.

The only thing left is for Pakistan to adopt Shariah. Its hypocritical of Muslims and an Islamic state to call themselves Muslims and an Islamic state but not adopt Shariah as the state law.
 
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Hmm, anyways Pakistan has no reason to be secular as it is 99% Muslims. It is redundant.
I don't think they have faith in sharia law. Pakistan is a nation with a small Muslim elite feeding religion to the people to stay in peer.
Does not matter.
A Muslim cannot be a Muslim if he refuses to submit himself/herself to Shariah. A law of their god.

Ergo, the logical continuation of an Islamic republic is to make Sharia the law of the land. It should happen.
 
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Hmm, anyways Pakistan has no reason to be secular as it is 99% Muslims. It is redundant.
I don't think they have faith in sharia law. Pakistan is a nation with a small Muslim elite feeding religion to the people to stay in peer.
Do you even know what secularism is ? Does not matter even if we have a 100 % muslim population we can still become secular by separating mosque from the state .
 
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But one thing i am sure about s that he never wanted the Pakistan we have today where illiterate people are our so called dictators and defenders of faith.He never wanted to force islamic laws on us.
what he really wanted is a forgotten dream. He wanted a country which should be counted among the most developed countries and second to none. Unfortunately we have interpreted it other way round and are second to none in corruption, ruthlessness, theft and illiteracy. Mind it there is difference between being literate and educated. An uneducated person can be literate and a PhD can be illiterate. By the grace of God we are self sufficient in all the above. We blame it on politicians, military men, civil servants and so on but have we ever looked at ourselves. How many of us have regards for petty laws. We violate whatever we can. Look at the traffic mess in all the cities. People coming wrong side sarcastically look at those who follow traffic laws. How many of us have refused to pay bribe, it is because we do not want to wait and get going as fast as we can. How many of us has preferred getting a traffic ticket against greasing the palm of a constable.

He, Jinnah, wanted a country where people live in peace, with equality and without any fear of being prosecuted for following a particular belief. What he wanted was a secular state, where every religion has right to practice what they want. He wanted a country where tenants of Islam are considered while making law, which means that those should be based on justice and not personal will. His concept of secular state has been molded to suit vested interest rather then interest of this nation.
 
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Great for Hindus,Sikhs,Christians , think of the possibility of all the fundamentalists being part of undivided India.
Interestingly he didn't spend a day in prison for India's independence , compared to 20 years each for Gandhi and Nehru.
Is going to prison a criterion for becoming a leader?
 
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But one thing i am sure about s that he never wanted the Pakistan we have today where illiterate people are our so called dictators and defenders of faith.He never wanted to force islamic laws on us.

Things will change when the people feel the pressure. Half of Pakistan care only about their personal problems politically. Local politics takes the upper hand over national patriotism.
 
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Mr Singh the Hindu was in awe of his Muslim foe, and as a result of his book lionising Jinnah, he was declared a traitor to the nation and expelled from his party
Please. He is suspended for 6 years AND not 'declared a traitor'. Parties don't have that right. :)
 
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I believe that he was neither a secularist in the Holyoakes meaning of the word nor an islamist in Zia's rendition of the latter - He was a pluralistic democrat who believed in equality, fair play and freedom for all but also in Iqbal's propositions of reconstructing Islamic paradigms in the light of modernity !

And no they are not mutually exclusive to each other; you can very well have a State where a person's value and worth has got nothing to do with his religious allegiance and still have a banking system in place which is conceived by leading economists and banking professionals to be mindful of the principles of ethics that Muslim civilizations came up with - historically contextualized and accordingly updated in the light of modernity, of course !

This is precisely how I view the 'apparent' dichotomy of him talking about freedoms and equality in one place while saying something of an explicitly Islamic nature elsewhere - I find the cynical argument of them being merely political gimmicks at best or a deliberate falsification at worst as being poorly and more so hurriedly argued.

I believe the confusion of looking at things purely through a secular vs islamist binary exists because :

(i) We fail to realize that Iqbal had more than an impressionable imprint on Jinnah. So much so that the latter kept in correspondence with the poet throughout and had those correspondences published as a book and was upset on finding out that his letters to Iqbal could not be obtained. That Jinnah went beyond mere pleasantries when reminiscing about Iqbal and spoke highly of Iqbal's philosophy and vision (including political vision summed up in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam) - This coming from a man who was dubbed by all alike as being cold, calculating and who carefully weighed everything he said....is a rare occurrence indeed.

(ii) Our inability to understand that secularism and pluralism are two different things and that the former was born out of the need of Western Civilization to contain the pervading influence of the Catholic Church and has no equivalent in Muslim History ever since we don't have an ecclesiastical order or at least didn't till the Iranian Revolution. While the latter, historically contextualized of course, has been the hallmark of almost every instance of a good government that Muslims remember throughout their History whether it be the Rashidun Caliphs, Haroon Rasheed or Salahuddin or even something closer to home such as Akbar or Sher Shah Surri. After all before the Fatwa-e-Alamgiri it was the Fiqh-e-Firoze-Shahi that was the law of the land coupled with local practices, common sense and a recognition of political realities !

@krash @Gufi @HRK @dexter @waz @Jungibaaz

Strange statement- I thought that Jinnah believed Iqbal was too fanciful and distrusted 'poets'.
 
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