Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[MZUBAIR]

Why we only compete India in their military not in Economy? Their Economy is growing at 6-7% our is just 2-3%. Indian economy is stable they can afford, our is not stable we can't. We need to first strenghten our economy then we could spend $$$ anywhere. Because this arm race is never going to end and if we follow this arm race our economy is never going to settle. Let take the example of Brazil, they waited until their economy got better and now we see Rafales offered to Brazil or France-Brazil submarine program and so on. When they had not strong economy they had aircrafts like Tucano for attack role (still present but will be in trainer role soon) but now things are changing. In early1960s we were growing 3 times faster than India but things changed. We were in arm race then, we are in arm race now.
Its my opinion every one has his own opinion and we should respect each other's because we both are thinking for better Pakistan. Hope someone would agree with me.

But the security comes first, we cant give them upper hold. India is always looking to take us away. They need a single oppertunity, we are forced to buy weapons to balance the power. Otherwise they will eat us on the name of terrorism.

Economy problem is every where in the world except India and China.

We are still batter from lot of nations (including India) coz more then 80% people living under roofs and eating food atleast of one time.

And as soon as we getrid from terrorism we will be on higher track of economy(Inshallah).

Lets say, if we would save money (1.5 Billion $) of PN subs, do u believe our politican spare that amount for future PN procurement?

So, let it be done. No compromise on security.

 

[Machoman]

Why we only compete India in their military not in Economy? Their Economy is growing at 6-7% our is just 2-3%. Indian economy is stable they can afford, our is not stable we can't. We need to first strenghten our economy then we could spend $$$ anywhere. Because this arm race is never going to end and if we follow this arm race our economy is never going to settle. Let take the example of Brazil, they waited until their economy got better and now we see Rafales offered to Brazil or France-Brazil submarine program and so on. When they had not strong economy they had aircrafts like Tucano for attack role (still present but will be in trainer role soon) but now things are changing. In early1960s we were growing 3 times faster than India but things changed. We were in arm race then, we are in arm race now.
Its my opinion every one has his own opinion and we should respect each other's because we both are thinking for better Pakistan. Hope someone would agree with me.

Hmm…. Good thought but our corrupted leader will eat the left over money. Specially Mr. 10% do not care about country only care about his account. Unless the top leader behave and invest 100% of country money to country’s need we never going to be in a better shape.

 

[Arsalan]

well this is a real nice thought indeed but sadly enough it cannot be practised here in the sub-continent!
even if you take indian example, they are currently spending everything on militry upgradation and there are no social-economic reforms goung in there place either! most of there population are deprived of hygenic food and water, shelter is also rare for poor! thi is a harsh reality that even with these conditions they are focusing on military. with 6-7% grpwth in ecomony, the growth of military sector is much more whereas it is not even 2% keeping in view the economy improving at this rate. so indina are spending much more on defence then they are getting and for them this is the right way to go!
the problem will start for Pakitan when they have modrenized there military and then began to emerge as a global economic player!
to counter this threat pakistan is forced to maintain a deterance along wiht improving on there economic conditions!

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

to add more, as most of member have pointed out, any other set back for Pakistan is a person who is willing to eat the country. he is the one who can ruine militay deals, spoil trade agreements, have force of ministers to officialy support all the miss-managment in the country! who is trying to run the country like a rent-a-car offer!
from electricity to military, we are trying to rent every thing so that the three years pass in peace, he gets his commision and then after these three years, leave a crippled economy for others to drain out even further!!

well i do not dare to type the name of this culprit as webmaster have adviced not to insult the president !!. i am sorry i cannot tell you about whome i am talking about

regards !

 

[Ghazy]

to add more, as most of member have pointed out, any other set back for Pakistan is a person who is willing to eat the country. he is the one who can ruine militay deals, spoil trade agreements, have force of ministers to officialy support all the miss-managment in the country! who is trying to run the country like a rent-a-car offer!
from electricity to military, we are trying to rent every thing so that the three years pass in peace, he gets his commision and then after these three years, leave a crippled economy for others to drain out even further!!

well i do not dare to type the name of this culprit as webmaster have adviced not to insult the president !!. i am sorry i cannot tell you about whome i am talking about

regards !

May be we should thanks JK Rowling for sentence
He who must not be named LORD *******. and

You Know Who.

U-214 is no doubt best conventional submarine I agree but to me economy comes first. I want to see Pakistan 6th largest country economically not neccessarily 6th largest in military. Offcourse 6th largest economy can afford any thing it like(U-214, Eurofighter, Rafale) but first thing is 6th largest economy.

 

[Arsalan]

May be we should thanks JK Rowling for sentence
He who must not be named LORD *******. and

You Know Who.

U-214 is no doubt best conventional submarine I agree but to me economy comes first. I want to see Pakistan 6th largest country economically not neccessarily 6th largest in military. Offcourse 6th largest economy can afford any thing it like(U-214, Eurofighter, Rafale) but first thing is 6th largest economy.

but do you think that working alone on economy without maintaining a minimum deterance in military will work. i dont think so, specially keeping in mind a scenario where we are involved in a number of disputes with our neighbour and militance that is being financed b some big guns! i dont think it will be wise to sit idel in military feild when the enemy in threatning to meet so called cross-border insurgency with force. also a new wor has ben introduced in global military termenolgies known as Pre-Emptive strike and our neighbour is fastly moving on a track to acheive this ability against us, in this case we have to keep an eye on developments in the region and keep pase with it, atleast a minimum pase os necessary from where we can latter play a catch-up rather then sit regretting our decesion!

for me, neglecting the forces in our case will be a lost battle and U214 is just a stp to maintain a balance of power in the region to avoid anu misadventure from any side!!

i hope you unerstand my point of thought!!

regards!

 

[sancho]

nuclear powered scorpene? lol.. thats so unrealistic and so not practical. you can not simply take away any power plant and replace it like you are playing with lego.. Scorpene deal has more to do with political then military gain. India probably wants to maintain stronger military ties with france and probably underestimated german approval of their latest sub for pakistan. and btw that thing of powering scorpene with nuclear plant is just laughable.. IMO nuclear plant is going to take almost half of the space...

Actually it is kind of lego, cause the Scorpene and U214 designs are modular! The normal Scorpene with diesel engine propulsion gets an additional modul to take the MESMA AIP propulsion, just like the upg U209 subs that gets if a fuel cell AIP is added. So to fit a nuclear propulsion it also needs an, or some additional modules.
Here is another source that I found related to this:

Scorpene Class Patrol Submarine | Military-Today.com

The Scorpene class submarine was developed by DCN of France and Izar (formerly Bazan) of Spain. It is based on the proven Amethyste class (a nuclear sub)...
... In 2008 Brazil ordered four submarines and one more hull, which will be fitted with an indigenous nuclear propulsion system.

Amethyste Class Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarine | Military-Today.com

And as you can see in the second link the Amethyste/Rubis class is powered by a single small 48 MW nuclear powerplant, whereas the INS Arihant already has a 85 MW powerplant.
So technically it seems to be possible and if that was the aim of IN, the Scorpene deal looks way different to me now!

IMO for PN this could be a total change in the sub procurement too, because even if France would not provide ToT, or assistance for the nuclear propulsion, China would! To me a Scorpene, or Marlin would be the best chance for PN to get a nuclear sub besides leasing, or co-developing it with China. The fact that you already have experience in producing French subs is another advantage too!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This thread is not about politics, economic or social issues or the opportunity cost of 'guns vs butter'.

Stick to analyzing the U-214 and its possible sale please.

Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[SBD-3]

let me tell you... agosta-90 was another frenchi trick! the government was PPP.. PN got a inferior sub (class) from the market. IMO PN should have acquired type-209/1400 back in 1990s and eventually upgrade them with AIP.. agosta-90 frame design is about 40 years old. and btw scorpene is way superior then A-90b.

But you should know that French Navy used Agosta not Scorpion.Scorpion is an export design not a time tested one like A90B

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Actually it is kind of lego, cause the Scorpene and U214 designs are modular! The normal Scorpene with diesel engine propulsion gets an additional modul to take the MESMA AIP propulsion, just like the upg U209 subs that gets if a fuel cell AIP is added. So to fit a nuclear propulsion it also needs an, or some additional modules.
Here is another source that I found related to this:

Scorpene Class Patrol Submarine | Military-Today.com



Amethyste Class Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarine | Military-Today.com

And as you can see in the second link the Amethyste/Rubis class is powered by a single small 48 MW nuclear powerplant, whereas the INS Arihant already has a 85 MW powerplant.
So technically it seems to be possible and if that was the aim of IN, the Scorpene deal looks way different to me now!

IMO for PN this could be a total change in the sub procurement too, because even if France would not provide ToT, or assistance for the nuclear propulsion, China would! To me a Scorpene, or Marlin would be the best chance for PN to get a nuclear sub besides leasing, or co-developing it with China. The fact that you already have experience in producing French subs is another advantage too!

okay i stand corrected, but india has no such ambition... AIP has to serve its life 2035-40 in IN..... unless IN decides to induct another batch other then the original 6+6.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

But you should know that French Navy used Agosta not Scorpion.Scorpion is an export design not a time tested one like A90B

Agosta-90B is merely a upgraded agosta-70... and pakistan is the only A-90b operator. and lol.... A-70/90 a time tested? dont know about that...

 

[Ghazy]

Is German Deal still intact?

 

[MZUBAIR]

I think, things will be clear in Octomer/November.

 

[sancho]

okay i stand corrected, but india has no such ambition... AIP has to serve its life 2035-40 in IN..... unless IN decides to induct another batch other then the original 6+6.

Not sure about their real intention, but don't forget that the first 3 Scorpene subs won't get MESMA AIP, only the last 3. So the question is will these first 3 come only with diesel engine, or is there more?
I heard in some forums that IN has the option of up to 9 more Scorpene subs but not sure about that and today a news came out that IN will soon decide about the next batch of conventional subs with AIP that are in evaluation now.

What do you think about the point I made of PN with Scorpene, or Marlin and a co-development of a nuclear powerplant with China? Don't you think it is a more interesting possibility than U214 (specially if PN has the aim of a nuclear SSBN in future)?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Not sure about their real intention, but don't forget that the first 3 Scorpene subs won't get MESMA AIP, only the last 3. So the question is will these first 3 come only with diesel engine, or is there more?
I heard in some forums that IN has the option of up to 9 more Scorpene subs but not sure about that and today a news came out that IN will soon decide about the next batch of conventional subs with AIP that are in evaluation now.

okay let me tell you IN is buying 12 Scorpene in all in 2 batch of 6. the other new conventional sub is russian LADA class and that too in 2 batch of 6.
you are right the first 3 scorpene is without MESMA AIP kit which will be installed later at the end of decade. our 2 A-90B are also waiting for the kits which will arrive in 2010. i am not sure why you are assuming that Scorpene will have a nuclear power plant.

What do you think about the point I made of PN with Scorpene, or Marlin and a co-development of a nuclear powerplant with China? Don't you think it is a more interesting possibility than U214 (specially if PN has the aim of a nuclear SSBN in future)?

nnnnope.. not worth it.. nuclear plant costs too much and by the end of the day we will be spending more on the power plant then on the actual capability of the sub.. PN will still be better off with Type-214 which has superior combat capability then any conventional sub.