Pakistanis becoming less Anti-Indian, but do Indians reciprocate?

[bronxbull]

I think that there has been a shift in emphasis in Pakistan over the last decade. I have never seen India and our relations with it become such a non-issue. I know how it sounds, but this is actually a good thing. For the longest time Pakistanis have been obsessed with India and wary of being dominated by it. Since 1998, we know that India can not kill Pakistan militarily. Since mid '00s we as a nation have been concerned with the political system and quality of governance. What concerned us greatly in the past does not do so today. We are much more self-secure and confident of ourselves. It is not so easy to raise India bogey to sway opinion a certain way. This is an achievement in some sense. We have begun to feel like a nation and be attached to an identity that matters.

I do not consider economy to be super important in Pakistan's context. Our struggle basically has been to define ourselves. A country that was split from British India could not be very sure of itself. Over time we have gone through a lot and as I see fourth generation of Pakistanis growing up, I can not help but notice their sense of identity and belonging. From a badly cut up artificial country, Pakistan has been successful in creating and sustaining identity for its people. We have our contradictions no doubt, but we are a lot more sure and confident.

We now can seriously think of engaging with India without fearing for ourselves. Now is the time for a positive push for better relations with India. We can have a relaxation of visas, freer travelling, better and more trade, exchange students, etc... We should also come to some sort of understanding on long standing problem of Kashmir.

Even if Pak didn't have Nukes,India wont try to use Nukes on Pak and India also will not try a military campaign anywhere except Kashmir.

Cb saab,

Thats a perfect answer you gave,Older people always understand and realise priotities and reality better than younger ones.

I have noticed such an attitude from many Pak people i have met.

 

[GreenFoe]

There is a concept named 'hudna' in islam ,read about that you will know the answer .



" The Koran uses the principle of making a Hudna (pretence of making peace) when the enemy is strong, and using that period to making oneself stronger than the enemy. "

 

[Juice]

From what I've seen in these forums (my only source)....most Indians are fascinated by Pakistan, and wish better relations....but you ALWAYS have that very vocal minority (and when you insult them...they insult back....I do it too....and I don't truly hate any nationality here)

 

[Chak Bamu]

Seriously the only person that likes India is @Chak Bamu.


The guy probably needs help, or has family in India.


Most Pakistanis despise India.

You are a prisoner of Hatred.

You know nothing about me.

Stop making a fool of yourself.

 

[Chak Bamu]

There is a concept named 'hudna' in islam ,read about that you will know the answer .



" The Koran uses the principle of making a Hudna (pretence of making peace) when the enemy is strong, and using that period to making oneself stronger than the enemy. "

Actually you are reading your own mind into a concept employed during warfare. The term you are using (butchering the spelling BTW) refers to employment of feint tactics during actual battle.

If it is permissible to lie to save one's life when threatened for being Muslim, that does not mean that Muslims go through their lives lying to others.

If it is permissible to employ feint tactics during actual battle, that does not mean that Muslims purposely go out and defraud others.

It really is your thinking that you are reading in others.

I would very much like you to quote the source so that I can tear it apart and show how clumsy your sophomoric effort has been. Shame.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Even if Pak didn't have Nukes,India wont try to use Nukes on Pak and India also will not try a military campaign anywhere except Kashmir.

Cb saab,

Thats a perfect answer you gave,Older people always understand and realise priotities and reality better than younger ones.

I have noticed such an attitude from many Pak people i have met.

Thanks for your appreciation.

However I must relate something that we Pakistanis remember very vividly in the days leading to tit-for-tat nuclear tests. That India had conducted nuclear tests was not as big a problem as the rhetoric and language employed by BJP leaders. There were open threats, scoffing, and glee on display. Advani boasted of having called Pakistan's bluff and having found that Pakistan could not do a thing. Sane-minded Indians were perturbed, I know. But they were entirely ignored.

After the nuclear tests, there was silence. The silence that meant peace.

The fact that I am able to shake the ideological baggage off my back, is precisely because I feel secure in Pakistan.

I am not advocating abolition of borders, of singing Pakistani - Hindustani bhai bhai, or any of that. I am reporting a feeling of confidence and ability to contemplate peaceful co-existence with India. There has to be an enabling atmosphere on both sides to allow this phenomenon to take root and bear fruit.

I wish to address Indians who are castigating my observations as opportunistic ramblings of people who have been cowed down by a strong India. That is not the case. That is not even remotely the case. Pakistan is more confident and Pakistanis are more sure of themselves today than ever before. We have faced challenges that would break lesser countries. We have endured what could not be endured by India, for example. We have a long way to go, but we are confident in our ability to manage our affairs. When the likes of you speak in your smugness, you are actually proving my point. In the last twenty years I have seen Indians grow increasingly arrogant because of the growth that they have achieved. They do not realize that not only could Pakistan do the same, but actually manage it better. They also do not realize the importance Pakistan has in improving growth prospects of India.

We can have our strategic dance, but let us not step on the other's toes, nor fail to thank where due. Competition is good, violence is not.

 

[Bang Galore]

Thanks for your appreciation.

However I must relate something that we Pakistanis remember very vividly in the days leading to tit-for-tat nuclear tests. That India had conducted nuclear tests was not as big a problem as the rhetoric and language employed by BJP leaders. There were open threats, scoffing, and glee on display. Advani boasted of having called Pakistan's bluff and having found that Pakistan could not do a thing. Sane-minded Indians were perturbed, I know. But they were entirely ignored.

After the nuclear tests, there was silence. The silence that meant peace.

Just a small addition. While we cannot be absolutely sure (since these things are not spoken out very much in the public domain), it seems that Advani's rhetoric (along with others) was designed to add pressure on Pakistan to test. This finds mention in the book by Strobe Talbott, the then Dy.Sec of State where Advani supposedly told him this with a glint in his eye (ST's words, not mine). This narrative does fit in with the common knowledge in Indian intelligence circles about Pakistan's bomb which actually got the late Rajiv Gandhi to order production of nuclear weapons in the late 80's. Advani was & is too smart a man to indulge in pointless rhetoric. In Strobe Talbott's words, Advani sucker punched Pakistan into joining India in testing (thereby preventing any international pressure only on India).

My own opinion and this is just an opinion is that Vajpayee needed the nuclear tests to be over & done with so as to get down to a deal with Pakistan on Kashmir. Once strength had been shown to the Indian public, Vajpayee's calculation might have been that the people would be more amenable to a solution on Kashmir which would have entailed(in the late 90's) some difficult choices. Vajpayee had a sense of history & did very much want to go down as the person who finally settled this issue which had bedeviled Indo-Pak relations for half a century. The nuclear tests were just a part of the larger plan.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Chak Bamu

While we may disagree on the specifics, your position on positive ties between India & Pakistan is very much appreciated. More power to you & others like you.

 

[bronxbull]

Thanks for your appreciation.

However I must relate something that we Pakistanis remember very vividly in the days leading to tit-for-tat nuclear tests. That India had conducted nuclear tests was not as big a problem as the rhetoric and language employed by BJP leaders. There were open threats, scoffing, and glee on display. Advani boasted of having called Pakistan's bluff and having found that Pakistan could not do a thing. Sane-minded Indians were perturbed, I know. But they were entirely ignored.

After the nuclear tests, there was silence. The silence that meant peace.

The fact that I am able to shake the ideological baggage off my back, is precisely because I feel secure in Pakistan.

I am not advocating abolition of borders, of singing Pakistani - Hindustani bhai bhai, or any of that. I am reporting a feeling of confidence and ability to contemplate peaceful co-existence with India. There has to be an enabling atmosphere on both sides to allow this phenomenon to take root and bear fruit.

I wish to address Indians who are castigating my observations as opportunistic ramblings of people who have been cowed down by a strong India. That is not the case. That is not even remotely the case. Pakistan is more confident and Pakistanis are more sure of themselves today than ever before. We have faced challenges that would break lesser countries. We have endured what could not be endured by India, for example. We have a long way to go, but we are confident in our ability to manage our affairs. When the likes of you speak in your smugness, you are actually proving my point. In the last twenty years I have seen Indians grow increasingly arrogant because of the growth that they have achieved. They do not realize that not only could Pakistan do the same, but actually manage it better. They also do not realize the importance Pakistan has in improving growth prospects of India.

We can have our strategic dance, but let us not step on the other's toes, nor fail to thank where due. Competition is good, violence is not.

I think,i am fine with it,especially the last line.

But i think your strength is your Punjabi people east of the Indus and the Mohajjir people,even though that term is controversial.

They were the ones who wanted Pak and they are the ones who have kept Pak going.

PS:I particularly dont like people who seek pride from the statistics of their country,rather than themselves being the pride of their country.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Just a small addition. While we cannot be absolutely sure (since these things are not spoken out very much in the public domain), it seems that Advani's rhetoric (along with others) was designed to add pressure on Pakistan to test. This finds mention in the book by Strobe Talbott, the then Dy.Sec of State where Advani supposedly told him this with a glint in his eye (ST's words, not mine). This narrative does fit in with the common knowledge in Indian intelligence circles about Pakistan's bomb which actually got the late Rajiv Gandhi to order production of nuclear weapons in the late 80's. Advani was & is too smart a man to indulge in pointless rhetoric. In Strobe Talbott's words, Advani sucker punched Pakistan into joining India in testing (thereby preventing any international pressure only on India).

My own opinion and this is just an opinion is that Vajpayee needed the nuclear tests to be over & done with so as to get down to a deal with Pakistan on Kashmir. Once strength had been shown to the Indian public, Vajpayee's calculation might have been that the people would be more amenable to a solution on Kashmir which would have entailed(in the late 90's) some difficult choices. Vajpayee had a sense of history & did very much want to go down as the person who finally settled this issue which had bedeviled Indo-Pak relations for half a century. The nuclear tests were just a part of the larger plan.

I have considered what you have written. This may or this may not be the reality, but a lot of what you say is sensible from more than one angle. However it may be, the essence of what I am trying to convey is independent of what was meant by Indian leadership. It did create a sense of despondency in Pakistan.

I was against the Lahore process. Boy, was I wrong then! But to be fair. Nawaz Sharif government had done almost nothing to prepare the ground. The process was a little hurried, and the generals should have been kept in check somewhat. Kargil must never have happened.

I think,i am fine with it,especially the last line.

But i think your strength is your Punjabi people east of the Indus and the Mohajjir people,even though that term is controversial.

They were the ones who wanted Pak and they are the ones who have kept Pak going.

PS:I particularly dont like people who seek pride from the statistics of their country,rather than themselves being the pride of their country.

In case you have not noticed, People from KPK are more patriotic than lame Punjabis like me.

 

[bronxbull]

Chak Saab,

am not saying patriotic/less patriotic,am talking about literacy rates and administrative talent.

It is so difficult,you have choose the right person for the right job but also explain it to the guy who didn't get one.

 

[GreenFoe]

Actually you are reading your own mind into a concept employed during warfare. The term you are using (butchering the spelling BTW) refers to employment of feint tactics during actual battle.

If it is permissible to lie to save one's life when threatened for being Muslim, that does not mean that Muslims go through their lives lying to others.

If it is permissible to employ feint tactics during actual battle, that does not mean that Muslims purposely go out and defraud others.

It really is your thinking that you are reading in others.

I would very much like you to quote the source so that I can tear it apart and show how clumsy your sophomoric effort has been. Shame.

That's Completely incorrect.

Hudna (هدن&#1577
Truce. Cease-fire (often temporary)

It's a tactic advocated and illustrated by holy prophet himself ,Muslims have used this in Israel-palestine conflict too .

 

[livingdead]

Thanks for your appreciation.

However I must relate something that we Pakistanis remember very vividly in the days leading to tit-for-tat nuclear tests. That India had conducted nuclear tests was not as big a problem as the rhetoric and language employed by BJP leaders. There were open threats, scoffing, and glee on display. Advani boasted of having called Pakistan's bluff and having found that Pakistan could not do a thing. Sane-minded Indians were perturbed, I know. But they were entirely ignored.

Thats because GoI knew that pakistan has the bomb, and it is an US ally. There was no way NS could have avoided wrath of public if he did no detonate it (after advani's rhetoric)
The fact that pakistan could do so within weeks proves GoI was right in the assessment.

A secret nuclear weapon state( like israel) and a hard hitting sanction specifically for India from USA was avoided.

To ordinary public of pakistan of course NS gave a fitting reply to Advani..

 

[OrionHunter]

I would like to invite opinions from fellow forum members who actually live in India and are in touch with the popular mood. @Ayush, @KRAIT, @orion Hunter, etc.... Pls contribute and ask others to comment.

Bhai, I posted a couple of similar threads and stressed on the need for Pak-India amity, but was shot down so bad, I retired hurt. The flame baiting on both sides was spectacular.

When I visited Lahore, I was pleasantly surprised and amused at the attitude of the average Pakistani towards Indians. I was treated like a VIP which was pretty embarrassing at times! Like I mentioned earlier in another post of mine, the kababwala at Anarkali bazar even refused to take money from me for those delicious kababs I gorged on, saying I was an honored Indian guest!

It is unfortunate that the same doesn't apply to Pakistanis visiting India. Most Indian's look at them with suspicion. Are they ISI agents? Are they from some militant groups like the LeT who may be up to no good? And so on.

I think the only way out of this psychological conundrum is to have more people to people contacts as a confidence building measure. We need more Pakistanis to come here as ambassadors of peace. More interaction through sports and other cultural activities is the need of the hour.

That would be the way forward, to finally settle all disputes amicably and within acceptable time frames.

 

[livingdead]

It is true that lot of Indians, vast majority of them are anti pakistani, more than ever before. I would blame it on 24 hour news channels. There is hardly ever positive news from pakistan on Indian tv channels.
Also most Indians are completely ignorant about whats going on in pakistan, they know much more about US or europe in comparison.