Pakistani pilot Saiful Azam

[notorious_eagle]

Absolutely!

This is what I have been trying to say about these $tupid made up stories about PAF.

PAF was squarely in the American camp. We got the latest tech from Americans.

And thus our policies were pro-American and anti-Soviet union.

There is no way PAF commanders would have gone over to direct and guide Arab pilots.

there is no way PAF would have flown with its own colors against American Ally.


So just ignore these raves and rants.

Just disgusting efforts by some leftie-commies in Pakistan to brag and boast about something that was not to be mentioned. at all.


peace

We have on this forum, a retired Air Cmdr who served in PAF for 35 years and was part of the contingent of advisors that were sent as advisors to friendly Middle Eastern countries during the 1967 and 1973 Arab-Israeli Wars. He has vouched several times that PAF pilots were directly involved and flew several sorties. All of the pilots mentioned above were honoured and bestowed with medals and rewards from their Middle Eastern hosts.

The reason why PAF pilots managed to score hits against the Israelis is simple. The PAF pilots that were deputed were battle hardened, they had already flew sorties in the 1965 war and only the best of the best were sent. PAF pilots were trained by the Americans from an American curriculum, they were taught to think independently and analytically unlike the Arabs whom were trained by the Soviets and not taught to think analytically. The Israelis never expected much manoeuvring or tactics from their opposition, much to their surprise this is exactly what PAF pilots employed. Anyways, it does not matter because PAF's participation was very minuscule and did not change the course of the war.

I wonder why did PAF, a profession airforce let it's cadre's undertake mercenary missions in the middle east.

Perception of 'Muslim Ummah', it was at its peak during Nassar's era. There was a burning sensation among all Muslims to fight the bad Israel.

 

[FaujHistorian]

... PAF's participation was very minuscule .....

We should only talk about "PAF" in this thread if our pilots were brave enough to fly with their own colors, using their own country's flag, under their own commanders.

If not, then why on earth drag PAF's good name into $hity defeat and humiliation.

Hope you get this now

peace

....
Perception of 'Muslim Ummah', it was at its peak during Nassar's era. ...l.

Correction Sir!

Nasir was with "Arab Ummah"

His whole drama was centered around Arab nationalism. please do not try to make him Ziaul Haq of Egypt

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer et al, it's like you can't read and understand, only regurgitate. How did that happen?

@Solomon2

Now why does this banter represents the shreds of an overinflated balloon which suddenly gets popped.....and by all means, share your personal experience with us. !!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Perception of 'Muslim Ummah', it was at its peak during Nassar's era. There was a burning sensation among all Muslims to fight the bad Israel.

You need to correct your perception @notorious_eagle; Nasser was not Islamic in any way nor did he subscribe to any 'Muslim Ummah' ideas. Gamal Abdel Nasser was a socialist who had scarcely any time for religious ideas. All that he saw was himself at the head of an 'Arab Collective'. While seeing himself on the world stage as a leading light of the Non-Aligned Movement alongside Tito, Sukarno, Nehru and Zhou en Lai. He could not even see eye to eye with all Arabs e.g. Jordan. And Egypt was most secular in his time and Sadat's time.

@FaujHistorian is correct when he says:

Nasir was with "Arab Ummah"
His whole drama was centered around Arab nationalism. please do not try to make him Ziaul Haq of Egypt

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...istani-pilot-saiful-azam-4.html#ixzz2RYqVkxur

Even the Pakistani and PAF connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict was incidental. Due to the US/CENTO connection. Did Nasser's AF have any ties to PAF in that war? The Egyptian Air Force and Navy had stronger ties with India but that remained confined to training only.

 

[ApnaPlot.pk]

Nice article. Things are not too bad.

Bahrain -- Small country is filled with Pakistani military (serving and retired) personel.
UAE -- Still has ex-PAF advisors and trainers
KSA -- They have thousands of serving Pak Army officers and Jawans based in the Eastern province

In all, the middle eastern countries do realize the sacrifices that Pak Army (and PAF) have been for them.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

@Windjammer et al, it's like you can't read and understand, only regurgitate. How did that happen?

Where are you going with this? Are you reducing what he posted (documented encounters)


Nothing too personal anyways. We can care damn about Israeli Air Force we have enough enemy(s) for now

On an operational every day level today tiny Israel doesn't figure high on our agenda

 

[FaujHistorian]

@Solomon2

Now why does this banter represents the shreds of an overinflated balloon which suddenly gets popped.....and by all means, share your personal experience with us. !!

WJ, I like your posts mostly.

However on this topic, Solomon is right. We must give credit where it is due.

Look if some Pakistani pilot does something on his own. Fine.

But do not put PAF's good name with him, unless he is brave enough to fly with PAF colors, and fights under direct supervision / operational planning of Pakistani commanders.

The world is already filled with too many conspiracy theories. And OP types just add more to that type of theories.

PAFs' victories to be celebrated are the ones against Indian AF especially in 1965. Our pilots flew with pride displaying our flag and under our commanders.

Let's keep this discussion real.


thank you

 

[kalu_miah]

yeah yeah yeah.

-- Big bad America was on Israeli side. cry cry cry, weep weep weep.


Before you put these golden nuggets based on one sided and prejudiced view,

Did you ever consider?

Ever?

That the other Super Power aka Soviet Union was supplying all the latest weapons to Arabs?

I am sure you didn't read that side in your government school 3 grade history book. or you perhaps learned this golden history from your jama masjid mullah?

did you?

did you not?


for the nth time. Learn this!

Israeli soldiers and pilots were the ones who defeated 10 times bigger army. Not Americans.

Arab armies supported by Soviet Union were defeated by tiny Israeli army.

The credit goes to where it is due.

you ignore war history at your own peril.

I stand by my statement. Israel's security was US responsibility in 1967 and this in no way compares the Arab relationship with the Soviets.

Arab's never had a chance, also because Israel from the beginning was mostly a transplanted part of the West who happened to be of Jewish faith, with some Jewish migrants from other parts of the world that migrated later after the establishment of the Jewish state. Apart from the superior equipment, the Israeli population had a completely different level of human development and as a consequence, training and management of their affairs, including their military affairs. Size was not the issue here, quality of human beings and their training and expertise was.

The same factors provides Israel security today, in addition Israel has nuke deterrents and the US guaranteeing its security, where the US is the lone super power and is no longer balanced by the Soviets.

Israeli's are no super man, they are human beings just like the rest of us. Given similar circumstances, Arabs or any others could defeat them. But nuclear deterrent now makes that possibility even more remote.

Off topic: as mentioned many times before, best option for the Arab world is to settle this Palestine matter on Israeli terms without further delay, as delay is only enabling the Israeli state to nibble further Palestinian land with illegal settlements. Already, many are claiming that a 2-state solution is no longer feasible, with so much of the occupied Palestinian land has already been encroached upon with illegal settlements. And Arabs must come to terms with the presence and existence of Israel, make peace with it and thus make the best of a bad situation. Dreaming to "push them to the sea", will cause further grief to them and their cause. This is simply not possible, given the factors on the ground now, or how things may turn out in the foreseeable future.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what did WJ say that was wrong?


what's with all you goddam people being so emotional and sensitive lately? i mean i know it's getting warmer and all, isnt it the time to loosen up and stop going by the rhetorics of the "enthusiastics" here

 

[Mech]

so he was a mercenary ?

 

[turbo charged]

WJ, I like your posts mostly.

However on this topic, Solomon is right. We must give credit where it is due.

Look if some Pakistani pilot does something on his own. Fine.

But do not put PAF's good name with him, unless he is brave enough to fly with PAF colors, and fights under direct supervision / operational planning of Pakistani commanders.

The world is already filled with too many conspiracy theories. And OP types just add more to that type of theories.

PAFs' victories to be celebrated are the ones against Indian AF especially in 1965. Our pilots flew with pride displaying our flag and under our commanders.

Let's keep this discussion real.


thank you

listen latrine man dont troll....
we all know you are shitman qadiani who makes pro israeli posts cause they have allowed you latrines in haifa and tel aviv.

@moderators

sir look at the quality of his posts.....
he is spreading baseless rumors against our national heroes......kindly send him to pink latrine.

 

[Solomon2]

@Solomon2

Now why does this banter represents the shreds of an overinflated balloon which suddenly gets popped.....and by all means, share your personal experience with us. !!

You cut-and-pasted from an article without reading what I read, or you would have - or should have - been embarrassed by your actions, as they show you up as a witling.

 

[Solomon2]

I stand by my statement. Israel's security was US responsibility in 1967 and this in no way compares the Arab relationship with the Soviets.

No, it wasn't until after the 1967 war that the U.S. really took an interest in supporting Israel. Before 1967 it was the Jordanians whom the U.S. saw as allies and supplied with superior weaponry. Before the Six-Day War Israel was supported more by the French than by anyone else - a position General de Gaulle, scenting opportunity, was quick to reverse afterward.

Arab's never had a chance, also because Israel from the beginning was mostly a transplanted part of the West -

And the 50% or so from Muslim lands, what about them?

WWI saw the collapse of three empires. Their component nationalities, mixed up for convenience of imperial rule, were mostly separated into nation-states. Where the process was not complete - as in the Saarland, Danzig, Mosul, and Palestine - flashpoints remained to start more wars. The Jewish-Arab conflict might have been avoidable - had the Arabs not determined that they would be the SOLE inheritors of the post-Ottoman lands and try to extinguish or expel everyone else.

Pakistan, of course, in practice doesn't believe that minorities have rights, only that minorities are permitted to exist at the sufferance of the majority. This is the root of most of Pakistan's evils from Day One.

Given similar circumstances, Arabs or any others could defeat them.

Jewish culture, in its fanaticism and exclusivity, WAS similar to Palestinian Arab culture of violence - about two thousand years ago. It ended badly for the Jews. How will it end for the Arabs?

...delay is only enabling the Israeli state to nibble further Palestinian land with illegal settlements.

They are NOT illegal, that's only what they are CALLED. Jewish settlement of Palestine, including "state" lands, is explicitly encouraged under Mandate Laws - the same laws invoked for the existence of UNRWA, which continues to nurse Arabs today.

And Arabs must come to terms with the presence and existence of Israel -

I don't see why a Gazan or WB Arab "refugee" (UNRWA's definition of refugee is unique) would think he should change, as UNRWA supplies everything. It's a welfare culture, people think they are entitled, honor is the rule over accomplishment, and as usual in welfare/honor societies - whether Detroit USA or Gaza - violence in the defense of honor substitutes for the struggle for a paycheck. You'd have to cut off the money - or make it conditional, as the U.S. did in the 1990s - to enable a culture change.

 

[kalu_miah]

No, it wasn't until after the 1967 war that the U.S. really took an interest in supporting Israel. Before 1967 it was the Jordanians whom the U.S. saw as allies and supplied with superior weaponry. Before the Six-Day War Israel was supported more by the French than by anyone else - a position General de Gaulle, scenting opportunity, was quick to reverse afterward.

This is incorrect. You are only speaking of the official version that people saw on the surface. The reality behind the scenes is completely different. The full details of history of US-Israel relationship goes back to history of zionism:
The History of US-Israel Relations
Alison Weir
http://www.cnduk.org/about/item/589-the-relationship-between-the-us-and-israel
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/andrew-cockburn/dangerous-liaison/

And the 50% or so from Muslim lands, what about them?

Here is what I mentioned: with some Jewish migrants from other parts of the world that migrated later after the establishment of the Jewish state.
Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=199606#ixzz2RcJfzF8L

WWI saw the collapse of three empires. Their component nationalities, mixed up for convenience of imperial rule, were mostly separated into nation-states. Where the process was not complete - as in the Saarland, Danzig, Mosul, and Palestine - flashpoints remained to start more wars. The Jewish-Arab conflict might have been avoidable - had the Arabs not determined that they would be the SOLE inheritors of the post-Ottoman lands and try to extinguish or expel everyone else.

The Jewish state was the inevitable price that Arabs had to pay for their freedom from Turkish rule and the resulting prosperity in oil rich states. Conflict was inevitable, because Arab leadership only lately became aware of what they are dealing with, a NATO transplant in their midst. Earlier leadership were clueless, and some still are.

Pakistan, of course, in practice doesn't believe that minorities have rights, only that minorities are permitted to exist at the sufferance of the majority. This is the root of most of Pakistan's evils from Day One.

Irrelevant.

Jewish culture, in its fanaticism and exclusivity, WAS similar to Palestinian Arab culture of violence - about two thousand years ago. It ended badly for the Jews. How will it end for the Arabs?

I predict that Arab lands will unite, except for the Shia part of Iraq, that will split off and may stay with Iran. The rest will unite in an Arab League and pursue their future with Africa. They will remain allied with the West for the foreseeable future and cause no trouble for Israel. But the Jewish state will have to come to terms with Arabs in their neighborhood in the mean time. In a far future, the West may not be all powerful as it is today and India may decide to side with Asia out of self interest. That is the far future Israel has to fear and act accordingly.

They are NOT illegal, that's only what they are CALLED. Jewish settlement of Palestine, including "state" lands, is explicitly encouraged under Mandate Laws - the same laws invoked for the existence of UNRWA, which continues to nurse Arabs today.

They are illegal according to everyone except Israel and Israel supporters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[10][11] The International Court of Justice[12] also says these settlements are illegal,[13][14] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[15] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[16] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[17][18] Israel disputes the position of the international community and the legal arguments that were used to declare the settlements illegal.[19]

I don't see why a Gazan or WB Arab "refugee" (UNRWA's definition of refugee is unique) would think he should change, as UNRWA supplies everything. It's a welfare culture, people think they are entitled, honor is the rule over accomplishment, and as usual in welfare/honor societies - whether Detroit USA or Gaza - violence in the defense of honor substitutes for the struggle for a paycheck. You'd have to cut off the money - or make it conditional, as the U.S. did in the 1990s - to enable a culture change.

Isn't that the same argument we hear about colored minorities in the US from Repubs? I take it you do not like the welfare culture too much. But in Nordic model its not such a bad thing:
Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[notorious_eagle]

You need to correct your perception @notorious_eagle; Nasser was not Islamic in any way nor did he subscribe to any 'Muslim Ummah' ideas. Gamal Abdel Nasser was a socialist who had scarcely any time for religious ideas. All that he saw was himself at the head of an 'Arab Collective'. While seeing himself on the world stage as a leading light of the Non-Aligned Movement alongside Tito, Sukarno, Nehru and Zhou en Lai. He could not even see eye to eye with all Arabs e.g. Jordan. And Egypt was most secular in his time and Sadat's time.

I am not disagreeing with you, all i was telling you is that this thinking existed among the average rank and file. All PAF pilots and advisors were volunteers, they wanted to fight the big bad Jew because they were considered the enemies of Islam and sympathy for the Palestinians was at an all time high. PAF unofficially sanctioned this project but only allowed volunteers to fight.