Pakistani Muslims are Naive

[H. Dawary]

I used to be an Ummah guy until like 5 years ago.
I was a bleeding heart supporter of Afghans as our brothers.
Then I started reading and watching Afghani youtube videos.....
Those guys have sided with India almost every time and have hated Pakistan since the beginning.

There is no Ummah there, they are selfish people who turned their own country into a s**thole and want to do the same to Pakistan.

Perhaps the hardest truth for any Afghan to accept.

I know it hurts brother, especially when it comes from another Muslim nation. For Afghans it's hard to accept that we did this all to ourselves, when we think back on the Soviet invasion, it was Afghans who supported the communists and invited them into the country only for it to get destroyed, nearly any Afghan you meet will tell you they hated the Communists, and supported the Jihad from 1979 to 1989, however through it all many Afghans lost family members, 3-5 million Afghans lost their lives, I myself am told stories about many uncles and family friends who lost their lives.

All that bloodshed ended up with hatred, and some of it was misplaced hatred, and because you are our neighbour, your involvement was something that was bound to happen, however many Afghans believe that you should have never intervened at all as the cost of losing family members was far too hard for many to bear. The only criticism and disappointment I have about Pakistan is that Pakistan allowed America to enter Afghanistan, I only wish that had never happened and Pakistan completely refused America altogether, most of the the negativities Afghans have towards Pakistan is solely because of this main event.

 

[Rusty]

Perhaps the hardest truth for any Afghan to accept.

I know it hurts brother, especially when it comes from another Muslim nation. For Afghans it's hard to accept that we did this all to ourselves, when we think back on the Soviet invasion, it was Afghans who supported the communists and invited them into the country only for it to get destroyed, nearly any Afghan you meet will tell you they hated the Communists, and supported the Jihad from 1979 to 1989, however through it all many Afghans lost family members, 3-5 million Afghans lost their lives, I myself am told stories about many uncles and family friends who lost their lives.

All that bloodshed ended up with hatred, and some of it was misplaced hatred, and because you are our neighbour, your involvement was something that was bound to happen, however many Afghans believe that you should have never intervened at all as the cost of losing family members was far too hard for many to bear. The only criticism and disappointment I have about Pakistan is that Pakistan allowed America to enter Afghanistan, I only wish that had never happened and Pakistan completely refused America altogether, most of the the negativities Afghans have towards Pakistan is solely because of this main event.

I understand what you are saying, but Pakistan was legitimately worried that the soviets were going to roll in Pakistan after Afghanistan. Plus having India on one side and it's biggest ally on the other side was intolerable to us. That is was a threat to our existence.

As far as I see it, Afghans did invite the soviets and Pakistan had no choice but to oppose them.

Again, i am still sympathetic to the people, but some Afghans make it really hard.

Just look at that afghan joker on you tube who was cheering on India during the Feb incident.

 

[Yaseen1]

Indian Muslims are on verge of losing their faith as evident from their past cricketer zaheer khan doing puja of idols on diwali with his hindu wife

 

[Khanate]

Perhaps the hardest truth for any Afghan to accept.

I know it hurts brother, especially when it comes from another Muslim nation. For Afghans it's hard to accept that we did this all to ourselves, when we think back on the Soviet invasion, it was Afghans who supported the communists and invited them into the country only for it to get destroyed, nearly any Afghan you meet will tell you they hated the Communists, and supported the Jihad from 1979 to 1989, however through it all many Afghans lost family members, 3-5 million Afghans lost their lives, I myself am told stories about many uncles and family friends who lost their lives.

All that bloodshed ended up with hatred, and some of it was misplaced hatred, and because you are our neighbour, your involvement was something that was bound to happen, however many Afghans believe that you should have never intervened at all as the cost of losing family members was far too hard for many to bear. The only criticism and disappointment I have about Pakistan is that Pakistan allowed America to enter Afghanistan, I only wish that had never happened and Pakistan completely refused America altogether, most of the the negativities Afghans have towards Pakistan is solely because of this main event.

Pervez Musharraf asked Taliban to surrender OBL unconditionally but Taliban refused. Pakistan and Russia are on record for opposing the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq whereas Iran supported regime change in both Afghanistan (Taliban) and Iraq (Saddam). Pakistan was told in no uncertain terms that we will be bombed back to the Stone Age if he continue opposing.

We faced international pressure at the United Nations to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267, 1333, 1363 which meant we had to handover Taliban leaders and support ISAF. There is not a lot of choice left here for Pakistan.

This is the full behind the scene story:

Prior to September 11, 2001, U.S. State Department officials were meeting with Iranian diplomats as part of the UN six-plus-two talks, which sought regional cooperation on policy issues concerning Afghanistan. Karl Inderfurth, the U.S. representative to these talks from 1997 to 2001, explains that on September 21, 1998, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan convened for the first time a six-plus-two meeting at the ministerial level. While U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright attended, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi did not. Albright and Kharrazi would later meet in September 2000 during a sixplus-two meeting. In general, these meetings were "professional but not harmonious" because Washington and Tehran disagreed over Iran’s provision of support to the Northern Alliance, the main anti-Taliban resistance group. The United States was reluctant to become tangled in the Afghan war.

After the 9/11 attacks, the situation changed. According to Kenneth Pollack, a former CIA intelligence analyst on the Middle East, while members of the six plus-two group, such as Russia and Pakistan, opposed a U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, Iran supported the plan. Officials from the United States and Iran began meeting outside the six-plus-two forum to develop a plan to topple the Taliban. These meetings became known as the Geneva Contact Group, and although the Germans, Italians and the United Nations provided some political cover for these discussions, the group’s focus was U.S.-Iran cooperation on Afghanistan. Iran not only provided reliable intelligence regarding the Taliban, it arrested and deported hundredsof Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters who had crossed into the country for sanctuary.

Pollack adds that the Iranian government also provided search and rescue for downed U.S. aircrew members. Iran permitted the offloading of humanitarian supplies at its port of Chah Bahar for transport into Afghanistan, and offered access to airfields near the Afghan border for use by U.S. transport aircraft. Iran also supported the initial discussions between the United States and the Northern Alliance, which enabled subsequent military success against the Taliban. After the fall of the Taliban regime in late 2001, Iran played a critical role in international efforts to establish a new Afghan government and pledged and honored commitments toward Afghanistan’s reconstruction. Through interaction with Iranian diplomats in this forum, U.S. officials succeeded in curbing the anti-U.S. activities of Iran's security and intelligence services inside Afghanistan.

Source: Middle East Policy Council​

Iran's President Mohammad Khatami himself said they supported the invasion of Afghanistan and put together the invasion plan:

People in Kabul know all of these facts but they are backed by US so they sing a different tune.

I understand what you are saying, but Pakistan was legitimately worried that the soviets were going to roll in Pakistan after Afghanistan. Plus having India on one side and it's biggest ally on the other side was intolerable to us. That is was a threat to our existence.

As far as I see it, Afghans did invite the soviets and Pakistan had no choice but to oppose them.

Again, i am still sympathetic to the people, but some Afghans make it really hard.

Just look at that afghan joker on you tube who was cheering on India during the Feb incident.

Soviets invaded Afghanistan. PDPA didn't invite the Soviets. Amin and Taraki were both assasinated by Soviets.

 

[ps3linux]

Growing up I heard that all Muslims are "brothers" and ummah I seen mostly Pakistanis hark on it sure once in a while I would hear a Afghan, Turk,Arab or any non Pakistani Muslim.Turks,Arabs, and Persians pratically hate each other you see it everyday here and in their politics before we blame the Yanks, or west yes they are guilty but we gotta understand one thing they have differences in mindset,culture and way of how their countries project power I am not saying Muslims are not brothers or ummah does not exist but we have to be more realistic in that

It's just a propaganda material used by successive rulers/mullahs to fill their personal coffers and offer Pakistanis people / Pakistani land / resources as cannon fodder for these people.

This is a word you will hear only in Pakistan or when the Arabs/Afghanis/Iranis are in trouble they will send their propaganda machines in the guise of Imams/preachers/mullahs/ayat ullahs their local assets whom they have been throwing bones and teach us there is an ummah.

How come bahraini jerks found Pakistan to be brethren during the height of Shia/Sunni unrest how many retired JCO/NCO they hired whose personal coffers were filled, same with rest of these filthy people.

You go to their filthy countries have the displeasure of interacting with them you ll find how they look down upon you.

Afghans altogether a different story for them Pakistan is Punjabi and you don't want to know what they call us in Pashto, even for them the ummah's abdominal cramp only occurs during the time of need, a pest at best the only country who objected to Pakistan's membership in the UN post independence, there are so many threads on this board about them and how they have always been instrumental one way or the other in harming Pakistan.

If you follow Iranian media or Afghan you ll see every now and then there are protests in Tehran or Kabul against Pakistan. Dont want to talk more about arabs already my mouth is bitter.

Almost everyone knows which mid-eastern countries, our western neighbors, south western neighbors have been funding the separatist movements TTP in Balochistan, SOuth Punjab and ex FATA and yet the only escape goat is India may be NDS some times.

The very concept of ummah comes into play when they are in need at that time they will sell certain aya'h of Quran as proof, other wise it is just derogatory remarks or blatant racism.

Nutsehll there is no ummah, it is all mutually beneficial relationship nothing else I have never seen Turkish or Malaysian or Indonesian, central asian harping the song of ummah and yet on a people level the relationship is much better that these others who talk about greater ummah when they have a problem.

 

[313ghazi]

But none of these people with shared religious backgrounds care like you or other Pakistanis do, they are ultra nationalists like Iran. And even 2nd tier Muslim countries like Egypt, Jordan etc couldn’t care less about ummah brotherhood, they don’t know about Kashmir. Maybe in the post-war era it was different but we are moving to a much more nation state & selfish World.

The only people we have links with in that respect are South Asian Muslims, Bangladesh did protest for Kashmir. That relationship needs to be built on, I think even Indian Muslims could be coming round

I agree. Like I said in another thread an reiterated in this one, in our current model it's about national interests. Any transition to a more cooperative international model would be based on the same. The EU was formed as much out of ideals as out of greed and political interests, if not more. Its expansion into Eastern Europe was driven entirely by the desire of Western European businesses to have access to Eastern cheap labour and political sway over the former soviet states.

Right now states like Saudi have no interest in alignment with others, even though there is plenty of scope for economic opportunity. Thier approach is to have Arab sattelites and total control internally. Iran does the same - why would their leaders compromise their personal power?

Whereas other states stand to gain more from working together. The most important thing is to add value to yourself, build yourself. The more we have to offer, the more we have to gain.

 

[maximuswarrior]

Growing up I heard that all Muslims are "brothers" and ummah I seen mostly Pakistanis hark on it sure once in a while I would hear a Afghan, Turk,Arab or any non Pakistani Muslim.Turks,Arabs, and Persians pratically hate each other you see it everyday here and in their politics before we blame the Yanks, or west yes they are guilty but we gotta understand one thing they have differences in mindset,culture and way of how their countries project power I am not saying Muslims are not brothers or ummah does not exist but we have to be more realistic in that

It is the truth. Muslim nations are in conflict with one another.

 

[Nein]

The Yanks are basically bringing the "Muslim Card" like they did with the Soviets in the late 70s and early 80s tho the Soviet prop up Govts in Afghanistan was bad it had to be countered, decades later it was mistake it lead to millions of Afghan refugees and more suffering for the Afghans later American invasion same with Balkans in the 90s when they wanted to break up Yugoslavia they used the Bosniaks first and Albanians later on again tricked by the Yanks more suffering now the Yanks want to go against China this time using the Uyghurs you think it would work this time yeah some retards will buy and muck up the same bs cocked up by Washington in the last 4 decades but I dont see govts like Pakistan and in the Muslim world buying it as they been burned hard by the Yanks



and the EU is stagnating bloc of Western Europeans baling out there poorer Eastern cousins

Honestly a EU style Islamic Union can literally benefit the Islamic World in so many ways.

Too bad us Muslims are too stubborn and prefer to hit each other.

Honestly our history is full of Muslims fighting and killing each other and today it continues.

Only way we can stop if a world war happens to Muslims with this maybe we will all put aside our differences just like with Europeans and the West after ww2. I dont want a world war to happen of course. Really us Muslims learn the hard way.

Us Turks prefer to rule everybody when Muslims who are not Turks dont like it we literally get pissed off about it. We love ruling and dominating. I dont know about Pakistan really judging what I see it really seems Pakistanis take the Ummah thing so seriously hence why they become naive to it.

Pakistan should look for its interests rather than naively going with the Ummah train lets be honest the Arabs, Turks and Iranians all have their own interests and the Ummah thing is the last thing on their minds.

I understand what you are saying, but Pakistan was legitimately worried that the soviets were going to roll in Pakistan after Afghanistan. Plus having India on one side and it's biggest ally on the other side was intolerable to us. That is was a threat to our existence.

As far as I see it, Afghans did invite the soviets and Pakistan had no choice but to oppose them.

Again, i am still sympathetic to the people, but some Afghans make it really hard.

Just look at that afghan joker on you tube who was cheering on India during the Feb incident.

Hate of Pakistan by Afghanis is also due to territorial claims. Afghanis believe Pakistan stole their lands and it is in their destiny to get those lands back and complete Greater Afghanistan.

Pakistan is much more stronger than Afghanistan it is no contest but Afghans still insist on getting those lands back hence why they are getting close to India so the Indians can back them.

Pakistan can easily obliterate the Afghanis childish dream of a greater afghanistan.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan should look for its interests rather than naively going with the Ummah train lets be honest the Arabs, Turks and Iranians all have their own interests and the Ummah thing is the last thing on their minds.

Mashallah. Some much needed dose of reality and common sense. We Pakistani';s have been nurtured into being cuckolded to the so called ummah.

The best example is OBL. He was a Arab. A Saudi. There are nearly 30 Arab countries and over 50 Muslim countries. When he became so hot aas to be radioctive every Arab [Muslim] country avoided giving this trash refuge in the knowledge that if he was caught on your turf not only would it invite US/Western wrath but would tarnish that countries image for decades as it would be perfect advertisement for "terror". So where was he found?

Pakistan.

So what does world think of Pakistan today?

Terrorists

Honestly a EU style Islamic Union can literally benefit the Islamic World in so many ways.

Yes, it can but as Western history shows you in a natural order choas theory prevails. Humans always are individuals first and act on their own impulses. It take a strong person with leadership qualities who can dominate the many and turn them into one. Similiarly at national level many countries all contest with each other.

In the West we saw 100 years of wars with two then spread to become global. It took 100 million dead and 5 years of meat grinding for one party to emerge victorious thus imposing it's domination. That is USA and the western order today.

That has not happened in the Muslim world. There is no single big boss like USA to bludgeon all the rest into line.

 

[Nein]

Mashallah. Some much needed dose of reality and common sense. We Pakistani';s have been nurtured into being cuckolded to the so called ummah.

The best example is OBL. He was a Arab. A Saudi. There are nearly 30 Arab countries and over 50 Muslim countries. When he became so hot aas to be radioctive every Arab [Muslim] country avoided giving this trash refuge in the knowledge that if he was caught on your turf not only would it invite US/Western wrath but would tarnish that countries image for decades as it would be perfect advertisement for "terror". So where was he found?

Pakistan.

So what does world think of Pakistan today?

Terrorists

Yes, it can but as Western history shows you in a natural order choas theory prevails. Humans always are individuals first and act on their own impulses. It take a strong person with leadership qualities who can dominate the many and turn them into one. Similiarly at national level many countries all contest with each other.

In the West we saw 100 years of wars with two then spread to become global. It took 100 million dead and 5 years of meat grinding for one party to emerge victorious thus imposing it's domination. That is USA and the western order today.

That has not happened in the Muslim world. There is no single big boss like USA to bludgeon all the rest into line.

Pakistan should have nailed out OBL and other terrorist leaders. I think Pakistan beated around the bush far too long.

A lot of these groups were useful against the Soviets but once the Soviets were gone their use by date has passed. Thats the con of supporting groups as proxies they turn against you as time goes.

I hope for the best with Pakistan it is a country with so much potential but it has been squadered many times.

For religious matters Pakistan should have a Diyanet system like in Turkey they should also crackdown on various sinister groups. They should also stop the interference and influence of Saudis and Iranians in the country. Lets be honest both countries harbour sectratarianism and they spread this to other countries.

Pakistan needs unity, cohesion and organisation to get things right. Corruption is also the biggest enemy of Pakistan.

 

[Beast]

Exactly and one thing these naive people intend to support the Muslims Palestine, Kashmir and balkans but when an ally country treat its Muslims Badly like China they try to be neutral. They can’t mix the umma with a nation state they have to choose. Those Pakistanis who were attacking Arabs for not saying anything about the Muslim suffering they themselves are quite what China and its treatment of Muslims.

China support Kashmir stance so why would they attack their biggest benefactor. Is muslim in Kashmir more important than muslim in China? Same as Kurdish muslim in Syria and Turkey more important than Muslim in Kashmir? Unless you can tell me Pakistan is capable of waging an all out war for all oppressor. If Pakistan needs to wage an all out war against muslim oppressor, the first to start will be USA and Hindu India. There is nothing wrong for Pakistan to do that.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Every few days someone has heartburn on the word and community of Muslim Ummah. Notwithstanding that it is a religious mandate not political... people who have otherwise Muslim names and grew up in secular households who foam at mouths for anything Muslim or Islamic least do any of the obligations bequeathed by Islam... talk about and show frustration at political state of Muslims as Ummah. While they themselves have for all that matters removed themselves from it's fold.

I have traveled far and extensively and found wherever I went I found the brotherhood and sincerity just for being Muslim and irrespective of national origin.

 

[jamahir]

nearly any Afghan you meet will tell you they hated the Communists

How about the SDA ( Solidarity Party of Afghanistan ) movement ?? They are Socialist and would have sympathy for the Afghan and Soviet Socialists of the 80s.

And you should compare the Afghan government in the 80s with that of now. Do you really, really want the current situation to be present in coming years ?? Do you want regressive movements like the Taliban to be existent ??

And tell me, do you hate the Afghan government of the 80s just because you as a Muslim are required by certain people to hate that government ??

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

@OsmanAli98 very dear YoungPak,

You need to read Allama Iqbal to understand Pakistaniat... focus on The Heartland... understand it...

As my very dear YoungPak @Pakhtoon yum demonstrates in this DP ... there is Momentum of History...

@Pakhtoon yum PakAghans are the backbone of PakState as the rest of Paks make heart and blood... however, NDS Kabuliz inside OurLand and outside have poisoned the relationship between OurPeople...

There are somethings which require deeper understanding @OsmanAli98 Mere surface reality is not engough... try to percieve.

Pakistan is The Heartland with entire Afghania in it...

We are Paks, Pak is OurLand... if we cann't be Ummah for each other in Pakistan how can we complain/lament what others do... ???

Divine Law is Divine Law and must be accorded respect...

Am I not just heap of decay? Dying I can't avoid. Universe I can't percieve... how can I claim anything?

Indeed

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Thanks! Would be nice if you could turn the map to OurColour! Green!

I'll try