Pakistani laws prohibiting underage marriage un-Islamic: CII

[monitor]

to keep our young generations' character clean it it is wise to give marriage at early age . as the medical technology have improve i don't think any health problem will arise when we compare our grand mother whom got married early age .

 

[Sugarcane]

I was not even talking about Mullahism. Leave my understanding of Islam aside for a moment. No one answer my questions that what Islam say when a Muslim girl or guy can marry? Is Islam set any age for marriage or leave it for individuals to marry at any age as long as they cross the age of puberty ? Give me criteria of Islam or Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh) not your personal perception. What is underage according to Islam?

If your excuse is that just because age is not mentioned in Islam, so there shouldn't be any legislation over it than there are thousands of laws which shouldn't be there because Islam haven't mentioned those things. Today - Why you don't legalize slavery? When Islam allows me to have slave than who are you to stop me? Why you are going against Islam? Answer is simple - that we are no longer in 7th century - and no sane person can allow it. Same is with marriage, If Islam doesn't specify age doesn't mean that you can practice 7th century tribal tradition today by giving excuse that Islam haven't stopped you, today having sex with 9 year old will be called child abuse & pedophilia - no matter whatever justification you give.

Regarding age - honest answer of below is enough to know that puberty is not sole requirement.

1. Do you need consent/agreement for marriage or not?
2. Do consent/agreement for marriage means making commitment for whole life or not?
3. Do when a girl get's her first period (suppose at age of 9), she becomes fully aware of all aspects of life and marriage, so that she can make decision of life time commitment or not?
4. Suppose a girl of 9 (who had her first periods) is tricked into drug smuggling (as it's not difficult to trick kids) should be given same punishment as 45 year old smuggler? After all she is adult as per your definition?
5. If tomorrow a case come in court against marriage alleging that girl or boy have not reached puberty than tell me how a judge gonna decide?

Your problem is that you believe Islamic laws to be targeted at a certain age or period. However, Islamic law was introduced as a guidance for all times and do not require amendment from absolutely limited capabilities of mankind. Once you put your faith in Islam as divine, you will not find the need to alter things.

I have full faith on Islam but sorry i can't accept Mullahism.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

If your excuse is that just because age is not mentioned in Islam, so there shouldn't be any legislation over it than there are thousands of laws which shouldn't be there because Islam haven't mentioned those things. Today - Why you don't legalize slavery? When Islam allows me to have slave than who are you to stop me? Why you are going against Islam? Answer is simple - that we are no longer in 7th century - and no sane person can allow it. Same is with marriage, If Islam doesn't specify age doesn't mean that you can practice 7th century tribal tradition today by giving excuse that Islam haven't stopped you, today having sex with 9 year old will be called child abuse & pedophilia - no matter whatever justification you give.

Regarding age - honest answer of below is enough to know that puberty is not sole requirement.

1. Do you need consent/agreement for marriage or not?
2. Do consent/agreement for marriage means making commitment for whole life or not?
3. Do when a girl get's her first period (suppose at age of 9), she becomes fully aware of all aspects of life and marriage, so that she can make decision of life time commitment or not?
4. Suppose a girl of 9 (who had her first periods) is tricked into drug smuggling (as it's not difficult to trick kids) should be given same punishment as 45 year old smuggler? After all she is adult as per your definition?
5. If tomorrow a case come in court against marriage alleging that girl or boy have not reached puberty than tell me how a judge gonna decide?

Ok let leave sexual maturity(puberty) aside for a moment. According to you when a girl or boy attain maturity (not physical/sexual but mental ). If 15/16 year old girls are not mature enough to make a decision for marrige or give their consent then would they get this ability say after two year when they are 18? Can they be mature enough at this age to make right decision for themselves ? Would all 18 year olds more mature than 15/16 year old? Islam set criteria of physical maturity because girls can bear sexual intercourse and boy can fulfill their obligation towards their partners and as far as mental growth is concern it never stop after marrige and those who get marrige at eary age become mature early as well because of responsibilities of marrige .Girls get mature faster than boys and we can not gurantee that at what age this maturity would be achieve as you will find many 30 year old more dumb than 16 year old. When islam make it fard for boy or girl to offer prayers or keep fasting or fulfill other religious obligations? What you think when and at what age a boy/girl become baligh? 18?

We are also forgetting the role of parent/wali in islamic mirrage. Our women dont go for dating or sleeping with different guys to find out who is Mr right for marrige. Most of the times even 30 year old women leave it for parent/wali to find suitable parner for them and parent arrange everthing for daughters and even for guys. All they do is see the photo of girl or guy or few talk on phones and give their approval or consent. They dont need to be 30 year old or master degree holder to do this. I dont see much differnce between making marrige legal at 18 or 15/16..

 

[majesticpankaj]

Now they can target underage hindu girls...

 

[illusion8]

Now they can target underage hindu girls...

That is very much a possibility - anyway Hindu's don't have a future in Pakistan.

 

[Mav3rick]

Now they can target underage hindu girls...

Do you mean to say that somehow the ones who would target underage Hindu girls, weren't already targeting them? Nothing can change the fact that immoral men will remain immoral. The only thing we can do is create a moral wall b/w their activities and interference into the lives of others.

 

[Informant]

Again i slightly disagree there because we need some help from hadiths as well when we make Islamic law even though Quran remain our primary and major source..well its different discussion



Calm down kid. Read all again with your calm head with proper context ..no point of yelling at me for no reason

Im just pointing out your ridiculous notion of even putting up the argument that making illegal under marriages is akin to gambling, prostitution, etc etc. These things happened in the times of Prophet even when Allah forbid it. I just dont know where you got that stuff and yes i read the context. The comparison had no logic.

 

[Informant]

Ok let leave sexual maturity(puberty) aside for a moment. According to you when a girl or boy attain maturity (not physical/sexual but mental ). If 15/16 year old girls are not mature enough to make a decision for marrige or give their consent then would they get this ability say after two year when they are 18? Can they be mature enough at this age to make right decision for themselves ? Would all 18 year olds more mature than 15/16 year old? Islam set criteria of physical maturity because girls can bear sexual intercourse and boy can fulfill their obligation towards their partners and as far as mental growth is concern it never stop after marrige and those who get marrige at eary age become mature early as well because of responsibilities of marrige .Girls get mature faster than boys and we can not gurantee that at what age this maturity would be achieve as you will find many 30 year old more dumb than 16 year old. When islam make it fard for boy or girl to offer prayers or keep fasting or fulfill other religious obligations? What you think when and at what age a boy/girl become baligh? 18?

We are also forgetting the role of parent/wali in islamic mirrage. Our women dont go for dating or sleeping with different guys to find out who is Mr right for marrige. Most of the times even 30 year old women leave it for parent/wali to find suitable parner for them and parent arrange everthing for daughters and even for guys. All they do is see the photo of girl or guy or few talk on phones and give their approval or consent. They dont need to be 30 year old or master degree holder to do this. I dont see much differnce between making marrige legal at 18 or 15/16..

There is a huge difference between understanding of life at 15 and 18. This has been scientifically proven, if you cannot come to terms with this fact then we will be at the opposite sides of this issue. I see what you are trying to argue, but a little good will not cover up a large huge mass of abusing the law it will carry. No 15-16 year old kids marry, they cant sustain themselves. Relationships at those ages do not take into account the complexities of life and responsibilities one has to accept. The 15-16 year old kids just have hormonal changes going through the roof, they dont look past one's physical attributes do you think in their bachpan they will make a sound sensible decision when hyped up on hormones and sexual urges

You argue young kids will not go around sneak and commit fornication just because marriage is legal for them. They will not marry and do what they wanna. All you can do is be an attentive parent and a friendly one at that. I tell this to you since I was a teenager once upon a time. I made out with chicks coming from strict parents/maulvi types to very accommodating parents.

Bottom line is old lusty men will force parents of young girls to marry of their daughters to clear off their debt and all this would be legal aswell. There are two sides to a coin, unfortunately the bad side is heavier. Your arguments women dont go out looking for Mr Right is our culture. It is good i guess, i dont deny it but it in no way helps you sustain your argument.

 

[Jf Thunder]

There is no Dhaeef Hadith in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim and there is a consensus among Ahlussunnah scholars on this issue .Dara Qutni and few others raised such questions , But Ibn e Hajar Asqalani in his Sharh of Bukhari and Imam Nawawi in his Sharah of Sahih Muslim refuted all such claims . Nasir ud din Albani is the only notable scholar of our times who dared to say that there are weak narrations in Bukhari and Muslim (a very few) . Albani himself was a Albanian Salafi who was thrown out of KSA for his unorthodox beliefs .

not to get into a sectarian war, but there also Hadith in Sahih Bukhari praising Hazrat Ameer Mawiya (R.A) whom you all hate

 

[Jf Thunder]

Have you read the Arabic version? Red part means some people

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَاصِمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، عَنْ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ الْبِكْرُ تُسْتَأْذَنُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ إِنَّ الْبِكْرَ تَسْتَحْيِي قَالَ ‏"‏ إِذْنُهَا صُمَاتُهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ إِنْ هَوِيَ رَجُلٌ جَارِيَةً يَتِيمَةً أَوْ بِكْرًا، فَأَبَتْ فَاحْتَالَ فَجَاءَ بِشَاهِدَىْ زُورٍ عَلَى أَنَّهُ تَزَوَّجَهَا، فَأَدْرَكَتْ فَرَضِيَتِ الْيَتِيمَةُ، فَقَبِلَ الْقَاضِي شَهَادَةَ الزُّورِ، وَالزَّوْجُ يَعْلَمُ بِبُطْلاَنِ ذَلِكَ، حَلَّ لَهُ الْوَطْءُ

By the way the Hadith which i quoted was narration of Abu Huraira R.A & the one you are talking about is an other one which is narration of Hazarat Ayesha R.A

i would consider Hazrat Ayesha's (R.A) to be more accurate

And for that you must know what Quran says, and if you already know what Quran says than why you have to go to Hadith.

because hadith explains to you what Quran does not, now let me see you perform wudu, or even pray without reading Hadith

for the male I am not sure...all I know of is fornication which is stoning if proven with 4 witness (who have never lied and have a good background) who can attest they saw it and they should get some punishment for not stopping a crime...and the punishment ...


I found this:

The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.

Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr to the woman.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case.

@Secur

the witnesses part is old, i hope we can use DNA tests and medical reports in its place?

You don`t live in Pakistan . May be that is why you don`t know where we Pakistanis are headed to . We are trying to become more "Muslims" than the Arabs themselves . Youtube is not banned in Mecca but it is banned in Pakistan , Ahmedis are not Wajib ul Qatl Murtids in KSA but in Pakistan they are and this list goes on & on

becuase i doubt there are Ahmadis in KSA, and if there are, they might not reveal themselves

Quran has punishment for adultery which is 100 lashes for everyone married or unmarried, and 50 lashes for slave (no stoning), On rape nothing is mentioned - so, you can have as much harsh punishment as you want as per your society to stop this crime.

dude, pls, most punishments are in Hadith, and some are not even there, like the killing of "Murtad" they were taken from the old Mosaic Law

Don`t you know that those verses were eaten up by a goat and were there in the"original" Quran ??? Mullahs don`t care what Quran says , they believe in conjecture aka Hadith more

Narrated 'Aisha "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

— Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269; Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626; Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) p. 310; As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13

WTF is wrong with you? keep your Shia views to yourself

 

[Jf Thunder]

Why we are talking about irrelevant things? just answer this question according to your understanding of Islam when a Muslim girl/boy can marry? Would we say prophet Muhammad(PBUH) married with under age girl then? we should not twist Islam according to our own desire or like/dislike .

dude, it has been proven that she was atleast 22 to 25 years at time of her marriage, and no its not wrong if she married him when he was 50 and she was 25, we must remember that the Prophet (PBUH) married Hazrat Khadija when she was 50

1stly, not every 9 yr old attains puberty...there is a range some say it can be as early as 7 (read in the news 1 case so far of 7yr old becoming a mom then again could be hoax as it was more like a tabloid) but 9 (is confirmed that some can have it at 9) and it can go as late as 16 (very few mostly in the West they start at 13 hence prob why they see 9 as absurd)

But marriage is not really a game..it comes with responsibilities heck men in todays world run from that word and some want 9 yr old to carry the burden? Its absurd!!

Her body may be child bearing but the psychology that comes with caring for the child when she herself is a child is not right...

As for Hadrat Aisha...well, back then we also have heard of 9 yr old Queens soo I guess mental maturity has decreased exponentially! From a 9yr old inventor/ ruler to a 9yr old bimbo in today's world is not comparable!

You can even look at medieval girls:


I dont hear anyone fainting over these marriages as much as they do over Hadrat Aisha R.A...

That was quoted to show the mental age of back then....

In todays world a 6 yr old only wants an Ipad...a 15 yr old just wants to be Miss popular at school....soo I doubt they have the maturity of handling a husband let alone a baby growing inside them...followed by delivery and all....no matter how "modern" medicine is delivery is still something that is not only painful but dangerous!

Well for all we know the translators might put it puberty but like I have shown you above there have been young women married, young women warriors hack we even have 21 yr old Samina baig climbing Everest... so if nurtured properly yes but not practical in todays society!

no please you must understand, she was not 9, she was atleast 21

Well with your definition, Islam may have been revolutionary in 7th century, but if it's not flexible and don't allow to make laws for 21st century requirements than it's simple outdated as we are not in 7th century anymore.

dude, Islam IS flexible

 

[Jf Thunder]

No i dont follow any mullah. I follow Islam according to my understanding and off course i cannot even read arabic and rely on people who make translation in English or Urdu. whatever you quote in reference to prove your point is also written by some men as we dont get any direct direction from God . I dont think any sane guy will approve domestic violence or slave women and jihad and qatal are two different things and qatal is of course defensive ..Taxes is not mention in Quran but you need taxes to run the states and Quran is not scientfic book to confirm scientific theories..its more about history book of lives of previous prophets and moral code about how to live your life





so Islam say you are child even after reaching puberty and having first period? This is the answer i am looking for

Btw this site defended the article of answering-Christianity by saying that Mary was also 12 when she married 99-year old Joseph.

read their opinions as well

Qur'an Contradiction: Is there a minimum age for marriage?

dude, Mary never married............

 

[M. Sarmad]

WTF is wrong with you? keep your Shia views to yourself

not to get into a sectarian war, but there also Hadith in Sahih Bukhari praising Hazrat Ameer Mawiya (R.A) whom you all hate

Never knew Sahah Sitta were "Shia Books" , thanks for this valuable information
And which idiot told you that I am a Shia and I hate Muaviyyah ??? And how is Muaviyyah related to this thread ?? Keep your sectarian BS out of here

 

[syedali73]

An overwhelming majority of hadith are narrated by Abu Huraira, who was not among the top and closest of the sahabah. We should expect many more hadith from ashra mubasharra, and most from ahl il bait since they spent more time with the Prophet (PBUH)than anyone else. How many hadith are narrated by Khadijah, or other azwaj? How many from Abu Bakar, and Ali? However, that is not the case, and it is not logical. That is why, i keep myself away from hadith. I dont say they are incorrect, but i also dont take them as gospel.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Never knew Sahah Sitta were "Shia Books" , thanks for this valuable information
And which idiot told you that I am a Shia and I hate Muaviyyah ??? And how is Muaviyyah related to this thread ?? Keep your sectarian BS out of here

i was not referring to the Sahih Sitta............i was referring to your post in which you mentioned the Paras of the Quran which were eaten by a goat

An overwhelming majority of hadith are narrated by Abu Huraira, who was not among the top and closest of the sahabah. We should expect many more hadith from ashra mubasharra, and most from ahl il bait since they spent more time with the Prophet (PBUH)than anyone else. How many hadith are narrated by Khadijah, or other azwaj? How many from Abu Bakar, and Ali? However, that is not the case, and it is not logical. That is why, i keep myself away from hadith. I dont say they are incorrect, but i also dont take them as gospel.

dude, MANY Hadith are narrated by Hazrat Ayesha (R.A) and Hazrat Khadija died a bt early at the beginning of Islam