Pakistani artillery vs Terror camps in Afghanistan.

[Basel]

Which weaponised UAV's we have that may have 25K-50K meters ceiling, 24 hr endurance. So far only one known pak made Buraq strkie? And how much mature is Buraq? USA tested and impreved their predator and reaper ucav's during drone strikes in Pak tribal areas in the last 10 years.

Getting MALE UCAVs off the shelf is easy for Pakistan, CH-4 of China is rumored to be operational with PA (they also crashed one too) China has offered CH-5 with ToT so MALE UCAVs are not big issue to have, currently HALE UAV/UCAV is issue to get and China is only practical hope.

Burraq is based on CH-3 which is battle tested platform and Pakistani companies are building UAVs since long so they have experties to build good MALE UCAV.

 

[F86 Saber]

It's always about effectiveless.

As I said, even if you can send a DET team as well as a RSTA team over to the target, call in strike and access damage, it won't do much in the big picture. Because for every one of those guys you killed, they would have redundant. For precision strike to work in COIN, you need to deal a large chunk of damage in one go, you need to eliminate at least 50-75% of high echelon member of an organisation at the same time in order to inhabit the groups movement.

To do that, you will need to launch a wide area strike, be it conventional or precision. Because if you can't, you may be able to kill one, two or ten leader, but that would not deal any damage on their warfighting capability.

The term fire and hope mean you fire and hope it got someone good (like a HPT), even if you know the areea you are targetting is a known Terrorist Camp, otherwise, location can change, and they will be doing business as usual.

Problem is that the Tangos are resourceful and quite organized, their top leadership is very careful not to gather at one place, they even travel separately and at different times so it is impossible to wipe more of them out with one attack.

The main reason for using artillery, as explained by @Horus is to create a buffer zone which can be guarded.

 

[Inception-06]

Defensive, static and predictable solution cannot give you permanent victory in this warfare. Artillery is ineffective in mountainous terrain due to crest problem and numerous dead grounds inside enemy terrain. Artillery cannot engage targets effectively. You can only use artillery as support weapon. Artillery is supporting arm and i dont think it can alone prevent any cross border terrorism. Guerrilla ( a member of a small independent group taking part in irregular fighting, typically against larger regular forces ) warfare can effectively be fought with the tactics of guerrilla warfare. Use similar tactics of raid and ambushes on Terrorist inside Afghanistan as they are using against us. In my opinion conventional tactics and strategy to encounter sub conventional or guerrilla warfare is stupidity.
My suggestions
1. Fight them in Irregular Fashion
2. Organize small independent raid and ambush parties all across the durrand line.
3. Select member of these regular raid and ambush parties from local or nearest towns.
4. Give them hight tech wepon ammo like SSG.
5. Give them perks and privileges better than SSG and regular army.
6. Post them permanently in same local areas so that they can make best use of knowledge about ground and terrain.
7. Give them advance specialized training of sniping , hunting and survival.
8. Task them to infiltrate and hunt terrorist inside Afghanistan
9. Give them full initiative to search , select and plan for the operations.
10. To avoid protest of Afghan government on initial stages keep them as a covert force and launch these operations as covert operations.
11. Raids and ambushes of this covert force on terrorist hideouts should be three times more than terrorist incident in Pakistan.
12. This is offensive strategy to deal with them.

@Horus

Call this Raid Force-Al-Badr group....I support your Idea !

 

[BHarwana]

I have one question. Why should we go to attack inside Afghanistan, Please don't bash me but need an answer?

 

[Inception-06]

I have one question. Why should we go to attack inside Afghanistan, Please don't bash me but need an answer?

Art of War:Assassins

Team Al Badr:

We don't need to go inside with our regular Army, we can send highly motivated and trained agents/killer& raid Teams with fake Afghan nationality, which do their work in civil and night!

Mission:Asymmetric warfare, psychological warfare, and surgical strikes.


The Al-Badr was an anti-Bangladesh paramilitary force which operated in Bangladesh against the Bengali nationalist movement during the Bangladesh Liberation War.

 

[BHarwana]

We don't need to go inside with our regular Army, we can send highly motivated and trained agents/killer& raid Teams with fake Afghan nationality, which do their work in civil and night!

There are 9000 ISIS terrorist inside Afghanistan and we don't need to clean them. We need to make sure they don't enter Pakistan and if they cannot enter Pakistan they will then turn on to the Afghan Gov and there is Indian investment inside Afghanistan which will get hurt. Pakistan is not invested in Afghanistan. So let USA India and Afghan Deal with ISIS just keep them out of Pakistan and hit the close to border camps that are threat for Pakistan. We need to keep Afghan and Indians inside Afghanistan busy.

 

[Inception-06]

There are 9000 ISIS terrorist inside Afghanistan and we don't need to clean them. We need to make sure they don't enter Pakistan and if they cannot enter Pakistan they will then turn on to the Afghan Gov and there is Indian investment inside Afghanistan which will get hurt. Pakistan is not invested in Afghanistan. So let USA India and Afghan Deal with ISIS just keep them out of Pakistan and hit the close to border camps that are threat for Pakistan. We need to keep Afghan and Indians inside Afghanistan busy.

Then we must seal the Border with massive strongholds, mines, walls everything what is possible !

 

[BHarwana]

Then we must seal the Border with massive strongholds, mines, walls everything what is possible !

Yes ISIS is not our problem inside Afghanistan. Lets make it a problem for India and Afghanistan. Lets clear our country and keep strict control on border.

 

[Signalian]

Defensive, static and predictable solution cannot give you permanent victory in this warfare. Artillery is ineffective in mountainous terrain due to crest problem and numerous dead grounds inside enemy terrain. Artillery cannot engage targets effectively. You can only use artillery as support weapon. Artillery is supporting arm and i dont think it can alone prevent any cross border terrorism. Guerrilla ( a member of a small independent group taking part in irregular fighting, typically against larger regular forces ) warfare can effectively be fought with the tactics of guerrilla warfare. Use similar tactics of raid and ambushes on Terrorist inside Afghanistan as they are using against us. In my opinion conventional tactics and strategy to encounter sub conventional or guerrilla warfare is stupidity.
My suggestions
1. Fight them in Irregular Fashion
2. Organize small independent raid and ambush parties all across the durrand line.
3. Select member of these regular raid and ambush parties from local or nearest towns.
4. Give them hight tech wepon ammo like SSG.
5. Give them perks and privileges better than SSG and regular army.
6. Post them permanently in same local areas so that they can make best use of knowledge about ground and terrain.
7. Give them advance specialized training of sniping , hunting and survival.
8. Task them to infiltrate and hunt terrorist inside Afghanistan
9. Give them full initiative to search , select and plan for the operations.
10. To avoid protest of Afghan government on initial stages keep them as a covert force and launch these operations as covert operations.
11. Raids and ambushes of this covert force on terrorist hideouts should be three times more than terrorist incident in Pakistan.
12. This is offensive strategy to deal with them.

@Horus

Selection, recruitment, training of locals on regular standard and then SSG standard will take 3-4 years and still this new force will have no experience. Even PA itself requires officers and soldiers to have some years of service and then volunteer for SSG. So probably PA will not allow new recruits(locals) to learn tons of lethal skills and jump to SSG standard straightaway. Any training lesser than SSG will not give them the skills potent enough to be lethal and deadly for their missions.

Most countries hire Ex-Special Forces Personnel to get the jobs done where Regular Forces cannot stay long for Ops in a Foreign country.
IMHO, a better option is get a BLACK OPS force. Black Ops force will be ex-SSG, ex-SSG(N) officers and soldiers who are working in different security companies in Pakistan. They are already trained and will need little or no polishing to get the job done which PA orders them. They are familiar with all doctrines of behind enemy lines combat and may be having experience in few covert Ops conducted by PA.

If Black Ops force is not an option then SSG itself is the last option.
SSG has training and years of experience in this role which makes them veterans. An SSG operative is far more deadlier and skilled than even a regular infantry soldier and with experience in WOT since many years should be the perfect tool for the job. PA has given SSG instructors to Police/FC/Rangers etc to make their own COIN spec ops Wings, this means SSG apart from Zarrar Coy. can focus on their main job---> operations behind enemy lines.
SSG itself has operated in Afghanistan many times so tons of experience is already there.

 

[Inception-06]

Selection, recruitment, training of locals on regular standard and then SSG standard will take 3-4 years and still this new force will have no experience. Even PA itself requires officers and soldiers to have some years of service and then volunteer for SSG. So probably PA will not allow new recruits(locals) to learn tons of lethal skills and jump to SSG standard straightaway. Any training lesser than SSG will not give them the skills potent enough to be lethal and deadly for their missions.

Most countries hire Ex-Special Forces Personnel to get the jobs done where Regular Forces cannot stay long for Ops in a Foreign country.
IMHO, a better option is get a BLACK OPS force. Black Ops force will be ex-SSG, ex-SSG(N) officers and soldiers who are working in different security companies in Pakistan. They are already trained and will need little or no polishing to get the job done which PA orders them. They are familiar with all doctrines of behind enemy lines combat and may be having experience in few covert Ops conducted by PA.

If Black Ops force is not an option then SSG itself is the last option.
SSG has training and years of experience in this role which makes them veterans. An SSG operative is far more deadlier and skilled than even a regular infantry soldier and with experience in WOT since many years should be the perfect tool for the job. PA has given SSG instructors to Police/FC/Rangers etc to make their own COIN spec ops Wings, this means SSG apart from Zarrar Coy. can focus on their main job---> operations behind enemy lines.
SSG itself has operated in Afghanistan many times so tons of experience is already there.

Keep on, its good reading!

 

[sparten]

I don't know where people are getting the idea that there have been no SF raids inside A'Stan. Cause there most certainly have been.

 

[Shiji]

You have first to answer my question ^^

The 122 normal and the D30.
122 mbrl is not a gun so it won't count.
Now complete the formula.

 

[MIR RAZA HUSSAIN]

where did you get this Information about SF been used ?



That make sense , but i just wanted to know if we can or not, but to take down a high level target we can think ..

For high value target we have started special transport service that dose not need ticket and i gives free ride straight to hell and its so quick that they didnt even get to know what hit them and from where it hit the.

you can alredy see the result in Kabul and Gaydia

 

[jhungary]

Problem is that the Tangos are resourceful and quite organized, their top leadership is very careful not to gather at one place, they even travel separately and at different times so it is impossible to wipe more of them out with one attack.

The main reason for using artillery, as explained by @Horus is to create a buffer zone which can be guarded.

Depending on what do you mean a buffer zone.

In most definition, it would be more or less a DMZ (Demilitarized Zone) where you have a buffer you can work with so you can see or aware if anything or anyone is coming your way. Meaning, the insurgent can walk thru that area, but you will know they are coming.

Other definition would be more or less inline with a Exclusion zone. Where you want to have that area totally denied to your enemy. Meaning the insurgent cannot walk thru that area and you have priority intradiction inside said zone.

Problem is, wihtout sophicated ISTAR equipment or team deployed into that area, artillery alone can neither make it an exclusion zone or a demilitarized zone. Because Artillery is an reactive weapon, you will need a coordinate to attack also, they are most likely putting into standby mode and what they did is not one off, meaning you are not done with just one strike. Without a proper target designation process, your artillery will be sitting idle most of the time waiting on target to appear. And you may or may not hit that target because you are lacking RSTA support.

 

[Inception-06]

The 122 normal and the D30.
122 mbrl is not a gun so it won't count.
Now complete the formula.

Don't know what you mean by normal?


That's what I know, adding to your D30:

Type 54 122mm gun:

Type 60 122 mm field gun:
The Type 60 122mm towed gun is the Soviet D-74 122mm gun produced by the Chinese under licence.