Pakistani Army asks for Respect.

[RayBan]

I am not expecting that from a citizen of greater democratic state ... obviously coup is not the acceptable solution (in my opinion) this is not the option that ppls support.

then have patience till next elections. no other alternative i can see as of now.

 

[A1Kaid]

@ Agnostic Muslim


Yes I know mandate can only be given through election and by Parliament/GoP. People in Pakistan have to elect new party and or over throw this Government and put certain members of Gov of Pakistan on trial.

 

[mymeaningislion]

for the first time army is trying to not to infiltrate the civil govt and some silly persons are asking for more propaganda......... it is now common practice that blame others and dont make your self right. any one blaming army is jack because they are not aliens ........they are pakistanis and our fathers , brothers and our self are part of it.......... and for wikileaks lover i will love to tell that it is CIA's parallel propaganda.......with some truth to build confidence and some covered and misinterpreted lies so to achieve the real goals.........and as far as my indian friends believing american sayings........i ask u.................. do america found WMD's in iraq? did in Yugoslavia there were chemical bombs? what happened on 9/11?......................... all these were proved wrong no evidence was found and was never given and presented to any court...................but for still they killed thousands of innocent people......and anyone who want to defend himself was terrorist......... so every person who wants to disaggree put him/herself in place of person who's parents and brother and sisters and children are killed in american attack and their body parts are scattered all over the place..... it will lead to revenge by any mean.....it is human nature......as far as real terrorism is concern it can only be eliminated by education and awareness...... and we the people of pakistan have to do them selves...... please dont ask media for such awareness as i myself know many media persons who are sold bugs and work for there new lords.....u know what i meant and the top person in the list is najam shethi of apas ki baat............. dear we have to eliminate difference between punjabis , sindhis, balochis, patans, and kashmiris. as we are brother in islam and our brother is in troble we have to help him.....and if he is annoyed dont blame him....... talk with them ......... fighting between brothers make the house weak and our enemies get the chance to make profit out of it........ ALWAYS REMEMBER UNITY,FAITH AND DISCIPLINE>>>PAKISTAN ZINDABAD>>>MAY ALLAHA BLESS MY PAKISTAN AND ITS CITIZEN....

 

[Riseup]

In any democratic state (as we Pakistanis supposing our self) the publically elected government is responsible for creating policies and implement those on the state and the governance of the state are the responsibility of government as well and as the citizen of that state peoples should concerning toward government in the case of changing policies or regarding all their other concerns. Army is not a policy making institution in these circumstances, although in Pakistan army in past interfered into government or took coup on government but that were wrong and that made the problems and army never have mandate for that. Now if army has been looked back to their role or mandate that they actually has and asked parliament or GOP to take their responsibility, why parliament are not going for that. Policy making is the responsibility of GOP not the Army or ISI they have never mandate for that, GOP instructed army or ISI or all other institutions to implement their policies. As well as GOP should follow-up on institutions for the implementation of these policies and parliament have follow-up on government.
But in our case we are going against of entire this process. There are some reason for that we are still not understand the democratic system although we are a democratic state but we are electing incompatible peoples to rule on the state and run the government they neither compatible to create any policy and nor to implement it and how it can possible when I am seeing some aids in local news paper that is actually about some property dispute or land grabbing and peoples are concerning to the (SADAR, WAZEER-e-AZAM aur CHIEF OF ARMY STAF)  haaah. This is psychology of our nation.
As a nation we need to learn the system first and then manipulate it. We need to fit every part of the machine at the proper place then it can work correct and all responsible institution would be accountable of their part.
There are many reasons of this psycho and election of such a kind of incapable persons in parliament and creating such a kind of government.
My question is that as a nation, do we know all these reasons? And looking seriously to correct it?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

ENOUGH SAID!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Kind of funny that Army waits for GoP cooperation only for difficult tasks like taking on America. When it was toppling the democratic govts thrice in last 6 decades and supporting insurgents in the neighborhood or doing a Kargil, there was no such need for GoP's cooperation..

Not the Army, but individual military leaders chose to overthrow the government.

The current COAS is widely recognized as not being interested in a military overthrow and limiting the role of the military in governance.

And yes, when it comes to issues/policies with serious and significant implications, such as the impact of a change in foreign policy towards the US, the decision needs to be made by the elected civilian leadership, and should be reflective of what the people of Pakistan want, and not of what the Army does or does not want.

 

[Solomon2]

Not the Army, but individual military leaders chose to overthrow the government. The current COAS is widely recognized as not being interested in a military overthrow and limiting the role of the military in governance.

I doubt that. I think Kiyani has been shopping for coup-partners for weeks, ever since, just before OBL became fish-food, he started making noises about "honor" link. He simply hasn't found them yet.

when it comes to issues/policies with serious and significant implications, such as the impact of a change in foreign policy towards the US, the decision needs to be made by the elected civilian leadership, and should be reflective of what the people of Pakistan want, and not of what the Army does or does not want.

Mmm, not quite. Sometimes what "the people" want isn't what is politically possible to achieve. Pakistanis, with their vocal denunciation of hypocrisy even as they privately tolerate corruption, don't seem to be as good at openly accepting political compromise as they are at making promises and not carrying them out. They mistakenly think somebody needs more power to carry out their will, not realizing that in doing so more people will be alienated and thus democratic support declines. I suppose the only cure for this is more education and experience with truly democratic processes. The Army has shown it isn't any cleaner - only more skilled at sweeping problems under the rug while it's leaders vacuum up the green for themselves.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think wikileaks has provided enough leaks to prove that how much army itself is prone to american influence.

The Army under Kiyani has done nothing that the GoP has chosen not to do. Wikileaks have not illustrated anythign more than that.

If Wikileaks had suggested that Zardari opposed drone strikes and the GoP opposed drone strikes and the current plicy towards the US, and the military forced them to accept the current policy, only then can one be critical of the Army/military.

But regardless of what the personal opinions of the Military leadership are, wikileaks made clear that Zardari and Gilani welcomed the drone strikes and US operations and pressures - in a democracy, it is the political/elected leadership that holds final responsibility.

If Zardari and Gilani change their positions publicly and issue public and official orders to change current policy towards the US, then we can analyze the military's response and be critical if they are found wanting.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I doubt that. I think Kiyani has been shopping for coup-partners for weeks, ever since, just before OBL became fish-food, he started making noises about "honor" link. He simply hasn't found them yet.

Complete speculation - there is nothing to support your allegation.

And even if the military was shopping for 'political partners', so long as they come to power through constitutional means, there is nothing wrong with it.

Mmm, not quite. Sometimes what "the people" want isn't what is politically possible to achieve. Pakistanis, with their vocal denunciation of hypocrisy even as they privately tolerate corruption, don't seem to be as good at openly accepting political compromise as they are at making promises and not carrying them out. They mistakenly think somebody needs more power to carry out their will, not realizing that in doing so more people will be alienated and thus democratic support declines. I suppose the only cure for this is more education and experience with truly democratic processes. The Army has shown it isn't any cleaner - only more skilled at sweeping problems under the rug while it's leaders vacuum up the green for themselves.

My point is the elected representatives can pay the consequences of 'not doing what the people want', depending on where on the priority list of the electorate any particular issue lies.

The military, as an unelected institution, should not be the one to impose policies with significant ramifications for the country. People can express their anger at the government by voting them out - they cannot do that with the military.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@ Agnostic Muslim


Yes I know mandate can only be given through election and by Parliament/GoP. People in Pakistan have to elect new party and or over throw this Government and put certain members of Gov of Pakistan on trial.

Exactly - but why criticize the current military leadership as being 'compliant and loyal to the PPP led GoP'? Unless they rig the elections in favor of the PPP, the military leadership is doing exactly what they should under the constitution - support the GoP and implement its policies. The military can try and influence policy through recomendations, but at the end of the day the responsibility lies with the PPP government for whatever policies are being implemented.

 

[Dance]

I'm not really sure why the the army is getting so much heat and not the government of Pakistan?

As Agnostic Muslim pointed out the army is only implementing the polices of the government, so if the army looks like they are American "stooges" its only because the government is. A lot of problems Pakistan faces is not because of the army, but because we have a weak and corrupt government. When the government is not doing its job, you cannot expect the country and its institutions to run properly because they all under the rule of the government

 

[Riseup]

I'm not really sure why the the army is getting so much heat and not the government of Pakistan?

As Agnostic Muslim pointed out the army is only implementing the polices of the government, so if the army looks like they are American "stooges" its only because the government is. A lot of problems Pakistan faces is not because of the army, but because we have a weak and corrupt government. When the government is not doing its job, you cannot expect the country and its institutions to run properly because they all under the rule of the government

Exactly - Concern to the relevant authority and put pressure on them if peoples wants to change some bricks in the policy.
If I am looking on the current Pakistan institutional structure every institution much aware of their role trying to follow it except parliament and GoP. They are corrupt and incapable to play their role.

 

[Solomon2]

Complete speculation - there is nothing to support your allegation.

I think Kiyani's words are indictment enough.

And even if the military was shopping for 'political partners', so long as they come to power through constitutional means, there is nothing wrong with it.

Citing the old Roman doctrine of "Great Necessity", Pakistan's courts have a long record of validating coups ex-post facto. That doesn't mean "there is nothing wrong" with the practice.

My point is the elected representatives can pay the consequences of 'not doing what the people want', depending on where on the priority list of the electorate any particular issue lies. The military, as an unelected institution, should not be the one to impose policies with significant ramifications for the country. People can express their anger at the government by voting them out - they cannot do that with the military.

That's how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately Pakistan's Army feels that it is so high and mighty that it need not follow such rules. That is why the institution can't call for "respect"; it needs to be taken down a couple of pegs instead.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think Kiyani's words are indictment enough.

Kiyani's actions are more than enough to refute your contentions - those 'words' have proven to be inaccurate.

Citing the old Roman doctrine of "Great Necessity", Pakistan's courts have a long record of validating coups ex-post facto. That doesn't mean "there is nothing wrong" with the practice.

A coup is not constitutional, nor am I referring to a court validation of a coup as a 'constitutional route'. Shifting political alliances and coalitions to remove the current GoP from power would be 'constitutional', as would be the formation of a new coalition after the next elections.

That's how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately Pakistan's Army feels that it is so high and mighty that it need not follow such rules. That is why the institution can't call for "respect"; it needs to be taken down a couple of pegs instead.

Past military leaders, chosen for their supposed 'compliance' felt that way. The current military leadership does not appear to support that position.

 

[Arsalan]

A quick review of the past 45 days or so and one can easily say that the public is loosing faith in armed forces of Pakistan. Either it is a plan to sabotage the image of Pakistan military or it is sheer negligence of our men in uniform, the question is what are the people at helm of affairs doing o resolve this?? So far, NOTHING!!

Either it be the Abbotabad operation, the attack on PNS Mehran, extra judicial killing of men in Quetta be FC or rangers being filmed gunning down a person begging for mercy, we have not seen a thing from ISPR to clear the ambiguity and restore the faith of the nation in military.

I bet, I am more patriotic then you but still, these are some questions that need to be though upon and answered wit a cool head.

Please, I request do not bring patriotism into this, lets debate on this like sensible people.

Thanks and best regards!
Arsalan Aslam