Pakistan would buy Chinese HD-1 supersonic missile

[MimophantSlayer]

oh plz .... don't show your habit of selective reading and posting a half baked 'TRUTH'
Note: you have posted a link of conversation b/w Kissinger and President Nixon from Dec 04, 1971 and the attached excerpt from Minutes of Meeting of Special Actions Group Washington on Dec 06, 1971 which clarify the legal status of that proposal (which was eventually turn down)

Proposal of Jordanian F-104 for Pakistan:

View attachment 506728

and for Iranian Help plz see the below attached excerpt from the same source and meeting
View attachment 506729
I urge you to download the whole document (from the same link as posted in your post) and read it rather just posting one or two links

Selective reading?
You would accuse me of doing something you yourself are doing. That is just righteous.

You posted a screenshot of the Washington Special Action Group meeting that took place on the 6th of December 1971.

What you don't realize is, that was just the beginning of the strategizing, at that juncture the Americans were only just deliberating sending the planes.

You forgot about the meetings that took place after the ones you mentioned, during the course of the war and no, those proposals were not turned down.

1st inclination towards circumventing rules and providing pak with the F-104s.
Kissinger and Nixon in the Oval Office of the White House at 12:44 p.m. on December 9, 1971.

Four planes are already sent now, notice the past tense.
Kissinger and Nixon in the Oval Office of the White House, December 10, 1971.

This the final mention of Jordanian planes (17 planes were provided eventually) to Pakistan in the document; also the end of the 1971 war.
Telephone conversation between Nixon and Kissinger, December 16th, 1971.

As for Iran, I was strictly referring to the arms and ammunition part, as the document does not make it absolutely clear if Iran ever did send jets to Jordan.
However, since the Jordanians were clearly very worried about their own defence and now that we know that they did eventually send the F-104s to pakistan one might opine that the Jordanians were indeed provided with Iranian jets. This is of course conjecture on my part .

Onto "military equipment and munitions" to pakistan.

Deliberation and plotting to support pakistan.
Both the Shah and the Americans wanted to help pakistan.

Final mention in the document of Iran supporting pakistan.
Chinese ambassadors and Henry Kissinger et al. in New York, December 10, 1971.

Akash SAMS has not solid fuel ramjet but solid duel pulse rocket motor @Vijyes Yechury

That's not true.

Akash indeed uses ramjet rocket propulsion.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs1/DRDL/English/indexnew.jsp?pg=areaofwork.jsp

 

[HRK]

Selective reading?
You would accuse me of doing something you yourself are doing. That is just righteous.

You posted a screenshot of the Washington Special Action Group meeting that took place on the 6th of December 1971.

What you don't realize is, that was just the beginning of the strategizing, at that juncture the Americans were only just deliberating sending the planes.

You forgot about the meetings that took place after the ones you mentioned, during the course of the war and no, those proposals were not turned down.

1st inclination towards circumventing rules and providing pak with the F-104s.
Kissinger and Nixon in the Oval Office of the White House at 12:44 p.m. on December 9, 1971.
View attachment 506822


Four planes are already sent now, notice the past tense.
Kissinger and Nixon in the Oval Office of the White House, December 10, 1971.
View attachment 506826


This the final mention of Jordanian planes (17 planes were provided eventually) to Pakistan in the document; also the end of the 1971 war.
Telephone conversation between Nixon and Kissinger, December 16th, 1971.
View attachment 506827

As for Iran, I was strictly referring to the arms and ammunition part, as the document does not make it absolutely clear if Iran ever did send jets to Jordan.
However, since the Jordanians were clearly very worried about their own defence and now that we know that they did eventually send the F-104s to pakistan one might opine that the Jordanians were indeed provided with Iranian jets. This is of course conjecture on my part .

Onto "military equipment and munitions" to pakistan.

Deliberation and plotting to support pakistan.
Both the Shah and the Americans wanted to help pakistan.
View attachment 506828


Final mention in the document of Iran supporting pakistan.
Chinese ambassadors and Henry Kissinger et al. in New York, December 10, 1971.
View attachment 506830




That's not true.

Akash indeed uses ramjet rocket propulsion.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs1/DRDL/English/indexnew.jsp?pg=areaofwork.jsp

plz CHECK DATES ...

at the end of war till 10th December there was no F-104 in Pakistan

and as per US assessment India was planing to attack west Pakistan (plz read the WHOLE CONTEXT) to avoid this both US and USSR played their roles

on Page 755

and on page 757

Keep in mind at December 10, 1971 war at East Pakistan was effectively over and till 7:55 PM (as per timezone in Washington) no F-104 was given to Pakistan by any country, which came later to secure the West Pakistan but see no operation due to ceasefire.

See what I was hinting by stating the fact "SELECTIVE READING" as in both of your post you have conveniently ignore the context and relevant dates of whole F-104 issue, but was asking me concentrate on "PAST TENSE"

 

[HAIDER]

plz CHECK DATES ...

at the end of war till 10th December there was no F-104 in Pakistan
View attachment 506863

and as per US assessment India was planing to attack west Pakistan (plz read the WHOLE CONTEXT) to avoid this both US and USSR played their roles

on Page 755
View attachment 506866

and on page 757
View attachment 506869
Keep in mind at December 10, 1971 war at East Pakistan was effectively over and till 7:55 PM (as per timezone in Washington) no F-104 was given to Pakistan by any country, which came later to secure the West Pakistan but see no operation due to ceasefire.

See what I was hinting by stating the fact "SELECTIVE READING" as in both of your post you have conveniently ignore the context and relevant dates of whole F-104 issue, but was asking me concentrate on "PAST TENSE"

aahhhh story of betrayal after betrayal .... stop posting ....a lesson for weaker ...

 

[MimophantSlayer]

plz CHECK DATES ...

at the end of war till 10th December there was no F-104 in Pakistan
View attachment 506863

I am sorry, but you are the one who should be checking the dates, I literally provided them with each screenshot.

Also the "war" didn't end on December 10 1971, the conflicts on the western side was raging well after the 10th.

The Chinese were noncommittal all throughout the war and the Soviets still had their ear, for that reason probably Kissinger does not seem to divulge classified information; that they have already managed to send pakistan the F-104s.

Kissinger would be much likely to be withholding information from the Chinese than from his own president.

This too happened on the 10th of December 1971.

But you will say I am speculating, alright.

The final account of the planes happen after the 10th, hence now you cannot question its chronology.
You conveniently ignored the last screenshot in my Jordanian planes reply, WHICH IS DATED 16th December 1971(the latest) the official end of the war.

Kissinger and Nixon again have no reason to lie to each other and Kissinger freely agrees to sending 17 F-104s. And this is the final and the latest account of the jets, hence any conflicting mention of the F-104s before this might as well be moot.

and as per US assessment India was planing to attack west Pakistan (plz read the WHOLE CONTEXT) to avoid this both US and USSR played their roles

on Page 755
View attachment 506866

and on page 757
View attachment 506869

This is completely tangential and borderline strawmanesque; why does India wanting or not wanting to attack west pakistan have anything to do with pakistan getting F-104s?

But I'll bite anyways coz this is just funny.
You are telling me to read the whole "context" but you don't even have the attention span to read till the end of the very page you screenshotted.
The footnote on your screenshot literally states destruction of only pakistan's "armored and airforce strength" and not "India was planing to attack west Pakistan".

Who does not understand the "context" now?
You are literally taking the Kissinger et al. and the Chinese ambassadors' conversation at face value and forgetting that hyperbole is a politicians bread and butter and throughout the document the Americans were trying their hardest to get the Chinese to intervene, hence the hyperbole, which won't be there when the Americans are talking to each other.

But I can already see your gears turning ready to deny it with excuses of 'it ain't clear enough' , alright, let me further clarify it for you then.

The footnote on your screenshot refers to a Document 246, it is a CIA intelligence cable of Indira Gandhi addressing her cabinet.
Nixon continuously wants to release this info to make Indira Gandhi look bad.

That clear enough for you?
Also, the fact that on the Western side, pakistan was the first to initiate hostilities thru Op. Chengiz Khan, that should tell you who hadthe itchy trigger finger.

Keep in mind at December 10, 1971 war at East Pakistan was effectively over and till 7:55 PM (as per timezone in Washington) no F-104 was given to Pakistan by any country, which came later to secure the West Pakistan but see no operation due to ceasefire.

You are changing the goalposts like the other guy.
Firstly, how do you know the Jordanian F-104s weren't used in the West and secondly why the hell does it matter?

My very initial point of contention was pakistan getting support from other nations in the whole of the 71 war and not just on the Bangladesh front, and getting the said F-104s for any capacity constitutes support.
Whether or not pakistan actually used the Jordanian planes is besides the point.

Also, the hostilities in the East had more or less stopped on the 10th, true, but that on the west hadn't.
It was only after pak surrendered publicly in the East that we agreed to a ceasefire resolution in the West which happened on the 16th.

See what I was hinting by stating the fact "SELECTIVE READING" as in both of your post you have conveniently ignore the context and relevant dates of whole F-104 issue, but was asking me concentrate on "PAST TENSE"

I cannot tell if you are straight up lying or you're just in denial.

You tell me to check the dates but conveniently ignored the fact that I have actually provided the dates for all the screenshots, and it is clear as day that both 'Kissinger telling Nixon about the F-104s' and 'Kissinger telling the Chinese about the F-104s' happened on the same bloody date, i.e. 10th of December 1971.
But, as if that wasn't disingenuous enough for you, you straight up ignored the 16th December conversation between Kissinger and Nixon confirming the provision of 17 F-104s to pakistan.

You spew logical fallacies and ask me to understand the document properly when you yourself haven't.

You tell me about "context" but don't seem to understand that whenever official language is being used in the document one has to read between the lines but when informal language is being used by Kissinger and Nixon it is clear as day that they are not mincing any words and freely discussing what they can't with foreign dignitaries and are actually discussing what has actually happened, hence the "PAST TENSE".

 

[M.AsfandYar]

This looks like a miniature ballistic missile. I don't see an actual jet-intake. If this is the case, then I'd much prefer the CM-302 or CX-1.

My thoughts too.

 

[DOTO for life]

Looks like ISI really got deep into the Brahmos project

We need to send in more of these
For those who dont know a ISI trained sleeper operative highly trained in both hand to paw/talon combat and guerilla warfare

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[HRK]

but you are the one who should be checking the dates, I literally provided them with each screenshot.

and I have not attached any screenshots ...??? with lesser word without adding anything from my side.

Also the "war" didn't end on December 10 1971, the conflicts on the western side was raging well after the 10th.

Catching word in my post was "effectively" at eastern Pakistan for reference see my post again

Keep in mind at December 10, 1971 war at East Pakistan was effectively over

and for this read the account mention the document Dhaka was about to fall; and stop using provocative word in veil such as "borderline strawmanesque" this does not add weight to your arguments

Now the very first post of mine in which I posted that you are posting F-104 issue out of context and posting on the basis of selective reading which is evident by your given reference of Op. Changazi in your post but refused to give reference of Indra Gandi briefing to her cabinet dated December 6, 1971 clearly stating the war objectives of India

this is the part of the same document which you are sharing with screenshots but chose not to post its context than what should I assume about you ...??

1- Either you have deliberately ignore a historic fact which is present in the same document you are also sharing in discussion with me to prove your point, hence indulging yourself in dishonesty (if this is the case than I would not be surprised)

2- Or you read just that part which you shared in your first post with link and was not aware about the background until it was pointed so it is the case of selective reading

I prefer to call a more honourable option of "selective reading" for you, but if you are not agree with this and want me to believe first option is appropriate for you than I have no issue with this as well

now coming to previously establish point that there was no F-104 in Pakistan till December 10, 1971 (as a screenshot was shared previously and sharing it here again)

you can clearly read the sentence "on this basis, four plans are leaving Jordan today" (NOTE: keep in mind the date Dec 10, 1971)

I know you would feel hitch (or might be some other India) to raise a 'relevant query' why those F-104 where provided than plz read

Read the highlighted sentence and I quote:
"Mrs Gandhi told her cabinet that she want to destroy Pakistan Army and her Air force and to annex this part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir and then to offer ceasefire. This is what we believe must be prevented." (again date is important here Dec 6, 1971)

and plz further read the Memorandum of Conversation of a meeting between President Nixon with Soviet representative dated December 9, 1971

This was the context which you were not presenting either by DELIBERATE CHOICE or due to IGNORANCE hence it was right for me to point out that your reference of F-104 in your post was OUT OF CONTEXT

 

[Vanamali]

Seriously dude, win something, anything

Man behind the machine, my a$$

Pakistan doesn't understand that it is not man behind machine which wins the war. It is men (leaders) behind man who is behind machine. Pakistan might have great warriors alas they dont have leaders. 70 yrs of their history is replete of this hard fact. Most of the times Pakistan indulges in self inflicting adventures due to unrealistic machismo. Hope they still don't believe in 10 Indians = 1 Pakistani.

I really hope to see this new missile in Pakistani colours. I hope hundreds are bought.

For each S400 Pakistan needs 72 missiles, for 5 such systems they need 360 missiles. For training and back up purpose another 40. In total they can by 400 missiles. What would be cost of 400 missiles? Now India needs to plan alternatives, Pakistan is forcing India into arms race.

 

[TOPGUN]

Indian trolls have so much time on their hands to worry about Pakistan do something with your life man lolz you people seem to be pathetic and desperate lmao.

 

[randomradio]

For each S400 Pakistan needs 72 missiles, for 5 such systems they need 360 missiles. For training and back up purpose another 40. In total they can by 400 missiles. What would be cost of 400 missiles? Now India needs to plan alternatives, Pakistan is forcing India into arms race.

You've only considered the S-400. Barak 8 is also capable of stopping Brahmos. And both IAF and IA have the Barak 8.

Areas that are not protected by the S-400 will be protected by the Barak 8, and IAF will have 2 batteries of it in such regions. That's 64 missiles. The IA will have 8 batteries in just 1 sector, that's 256 missiles.

Any Pakistani missile has to fly over at least one of the army's Barak 8 batteries, followed by 2 of IAF's batteries and then hit the S-400. That's a lot of missiles to defeat.

And then you can consider Akash NG and the XRSAM also.

There is no arms race.

 

[waz]

Can we leave the off-topic posts off (1971 war) here please? Anymore I shall ban people from this thread.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Only an old user manual was leaked.

so what is the big deal!!! The new manual wouldn't be any different from the old one, considering the speed with which the Indians work. They need at least 40 years to make a small change.

At this point, Brahmos might as well be Indian.

Excluding the ramjet engine and seeker, majority of the subsystems in Brahmos is indeed Indian.

However in recent times we have successfully developed and tested our own solid fueled booster as well as the X-band SAR seeker which will replace the Russian ones.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-for-brahmos-missile/articleshow/61774751.cms
View attachment 505987

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2...ous-radio-frequency-seeker/amp/?source=images


We already make 65% of the Brahmos in India which is slated to go upto 75% in the next year and eventually 85%.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...ocalisation-in-six-months/article23793579.ece

And even though I doubt the pact with Russia allows us to make the liquid fuelled ramjet engine of the Brahmos, we are making our own ramjet engine regardless, for a separate ramjet missile that is.
View attachment 505988

Kab taak ban jaeega!! New ramjet Indian engine, 40 years good enough time!!! Will Indian military buy it, or reject like most Indian produced "High Tech" junk!!!

 

[MimophantSlayer]

so what is the big deal!!! The new manual wouldn't be any different from the old one, considering the speed with which the Indians work. They need at least 40 years to make a small change.

You are right, old-new, it does not matter.
Its not like pakistan will ever be able to make use of it in a pakistani supersonic cruise missile.

Also, I am sorry to disappoint you, but we moved from 10-12% localisation in around Brahmos induction into the forces in 2006 to 65-75% today. That's mighty less than 40 years.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...ocalisation-in-six-months/article23793579.ece

Moving to 85% in the near furture.

At this point, Brahmos might as well be Indian.

Excluding the ramjet engine and seeker, majority of the subsystems in Brahmos is indeed Indian.

However in recent times we have successfully developed and tested our own solid fueled booster as well as the X-band SAR seeker which will replace the Russian ones.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-for-brahmos-missile/articleshow/61774751.cms
View attachment 505987

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2...ous-radio-frequency-seeker/amp/?source=images


We already make 65% of the Brahmos in India which is slated to go upto 75% in the next year and eventually 85%.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...ocalisation-in-six-months/article23793579.ece

And even though I doubt the pact with Russia allows us to make the liquid fuelled ramjet engine of the Brahmos, we are making our own ramjet engine regardless, for a separate ramjet missile that is.
View attachment 505988

Kab taak ban jaeega!! New ramjet Indian engine, 40 years good enough time!!! Will Indian military buy it, or reject like most Indian produced "High Tech" junk!!!

Arey ban jaegee, tu tention na le.
Just coz we hear 1 negetive news being played about 1 defense product on a loop over and over again does not make it not good enough or late.
Every Indian product always gets better and always gets inducted.

Like Akash, or the Agni series missiles, K series missiles, Pinaka, so on and so forth.

 

[crankthatskunk]

You are right, old-new, it does not matter.
Its not like pakistan will ever be able to make use of it in a pakistani supersonic cruise missile.

Also, I am sorry to disappoint you, but we moved from 10-12% localisation in around Brahmos induction into the forces in 2006 to 65-75% today. That's mighty less than 40 years.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...ocalisation-in-six-months/article23793579.ece

Moving to 85% in the near furture.

Arey ban jaegee, tu tention na le.
Just coz we hear 1 negetive news being played about 1 defense product on a loop over and over again does not make it not good enough or late.
Every Indian product always gets better and always gets inducted.

Like Akash, or the Agni series missiles, K series missiles, Pinaka, so on and so forth.

One negative thing!!! Read your own columnists. The list of Indian's failures is long, very long.
Stop kidding yourself. You know very well your institutions takes years and years to develop everything.
By the time they had half practical product out, it is already become obsolete and junk, a fact.

 

[Dazzler]

Interesting info on the HD-1, excerpts from report and possible involvement of NORINCO..


http://www.eastpendulum.com/hd-1-quand-un-foreur-se-met-au-missile-a-statoreacteur