Pakistan will launch a two-seater version of JF-17 - Induction of JF-17B in 2017

[The Eagle]

@Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @The Eagle
will F-17B full fill the gap of LIFT/advanced trainer? or they are still needed after F-17B?

Indeed it is too early to assume the role of JF-17B than training purpose though need of LIFT is there. However, until & unless specs are shared, IMO, PAF has already evaluated advance trainers like L-15 and then came-up with the idea of JF-17B so most probably it would be not less then but at-least head par with L-15 in most areas while keeping in view the need of advance trainer/LIFT.

Judging from the model of JF-17B it doesn't seem to be the dual seat variant of block 2. I think it would a dual seat variant of block 3 and I think it wouldn't arrive before 2018. What are your thoughts on it @The Eagle @Quwa ?

Induction time as quoted is around April, 2017. Rest about JF-17B being block II or III, it depends what it holds under the hood and we have been expecting Block-III containing AESA, IRST etc so you can assume at the moment about upcoming JF-17B but would be early.

 

[JamD]

Also we know that the wingspan is slightly larger and the height is lower (probably because of removal of ECM box on top of vertical tail).

 

[knight11]

So this JF-17B is going to be inducted in PAF or it will for the export customer.

Second there were few talks of the French M88 engine for the JF-17 B what happens to that.

 

[Green Angel]

Congrats...... Keep it up....
Pakistan should continue improvements in JF-17 as quickly as possible, from now we have very less time,as Narendra Modi is getting mad day by day.

 

[war&peace]

That is an essential development especially for consolidating the export potential. In addition to training, a dual seat version is more suited for reconnaisance missions.

 

[araz]

I agree with some of the senior posters that the B version should have come out from the word go. Icanjot understand why PAF missed this trick. Isuspect it has had some impact on sales. However I am glad we are finally making headway. I think PAF will induct small numbers and judge its capabilities and then decide what role it wants to utilize it for. Again goes to show PAF had not planned to have a twin seater variant.
A

 

[Tipu7]

I agree with some of the senior posters that the B version should have come out from the word go. Icanjot understand why PAF missed this trick. Isuspect it has had some impact on sales. However I am glad we are finally making headway. I think PAF will induct small numbers and judge its capabilities and then decide what role it wants to utilize it for. Again goes to show PAF had not planned to have a twin seater variant.
A

Jf17 B is in design + production phase purely because of Customers demand.
Other wise PAF was using FT7P for training pilots for Jf17.
Twin seater is not our urgent requirement......
But for exporting jet, we need twin seater.

So this JF-17B is going to be inducted in PAF or it will for the export customer.

Second there were few talks of the French M88 engine for the JF-17 B what happens to that.

First for customers, then may be for PAF.
And engine will remain same.....

 

[JamD]

I think also it would look really bad with respect to market image if we come up with a JF-17B and then not induct (in whatever capacity) into the PAF. I am sure PAF will induct it, at the very least because of this.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

-An official with the programme confirms that the variant will be designated JF-17B. It is being developed in response to customer requirements for a combat-capable trainer variant of the aircraft.
“There is no loss in combat capability with the addition of the extra seat,” says the official.

PAF project director has claimed that JFT-B will be for export purposes because PAF is very happy with simulator and single seater training methods. More over he said that JFT B will only be for training purposes and will have same combat capability as single seater.

Any dedicated strike platform like f16D is not in in focus for now.

from its war experience for the years I can say that PAF doesnt conduct itself in such half arsed, confused, bewildered and stupid way like it has run the development and marketing program of the JF-17

every highlighted sentence above in the two quotes deserves a thorough dressing down of the people who are running this program. out of respect for the institution my choice of words is still careful.

being developed in response to customer demand
it means that respective customers respectfully dismiss the claim of the program directors that the simulation and standard experience of a modern jet aircraft is enough to fly this aeroplane. these ex-fighter pilots miss out the marketing rule 101 that when you want to sell something then you think from customer point of view.
yes, your serving pilots have proven to the world that this jet can be mastered without even a trainer but a customer may not share same level of confidence.

requirements for a combat-capable trainer variant
Trainer, trainer and trainer is an insistence by these people. fixating the customer to think in one dimension only. restricting him from improvising the dual seater jet for any other possible mission. again a very narrow minded single dimensional thinking by those who might have flown in 3 D space.

PAF is very happy with simulator
again these decision makers are doing thinking for the future PAF pilots. and since they have put their foot down that they wont allow their single minded approach from thinking beyond the trainer so this duel seater jet will remain out of bounds from PAF inventory.

strike platform like f16D is not in in focus
the statement shows lack of clarify about the marketing and total contradiction of the entire program concept, which was a multi-purpose workhorse of a light modern platform which will offer variety of roles interception, escort, sea patrol, strike role, CAP .. you name it. refusing to allow the added perceived benefits of a duel seater shows that some people in its marketing program fail to see some basic flaws in their strategy ..

but no matter, as the time passes and as the time will have mercy on the PAF ... these same people will eat their hats and announce the added features with extended mission capabilities that the duel seater platform will offer.

 

[volatile]

from its war experience for the years I can say that PAF doesnt conduct itself in such half arsed, confused, bewildered and stupid way like it has run the development and marketing program of the JF-17

every highlighted sentence above in the two quotes deserves a thorough dressing down of the people who are running this program. out of respect for the institution my choice of words is still careful.

being developed in response to customer demand
it means that respective customers respectfully dismiss the claim of the program directors that the simulation and standard experience of a modern jet aircraft is enough to fly this aeroplane. these ex-fighter pilots miss out the marketing rule 101 that when you want to sell something then you think from customer point of view.
yes, your serving pilots have proven to the world that this jet can be mastered without even a trainer but a customer may not share same level of confidence.

requirements for a combat-capable trainer variant
Trainer, trainer and trainer is an insistence by these people. fixating the customer to think in one dimension only. restricting him from improvising the dual seater jet for any other possible mission. again a very narrow minded single dimensional thinking by those who might have flown in 3 D space.

PAF is very happy with simulator
again these decision makers are doing thinking for the future PAF pilots. and since they have put their foot down that they wont allow their single minded approach from thinking beyond the trainer so this duel seater jet will remain out of bounds from PAF inventory.

strike platform like f16D is not in in focus
the statement shows lack of clarify about the marketing and total contradiction of the entire program concept, which was a multi-purpose workhorse of a light modern platform which will offer variety of roles interception, escort, sea patrol, strike role, CAP .. you name it. refusing to allow the added perceived benefits of a duel seater shows that some people in its marketing program fail to see some basic flaws in their strategy ..

but no matter, as the time passes and as the time will have mercy on the PAF ... these same people will eat their hats and announce the added features with extended mission capabilities that the duel seater platform will offer.

Spot On ,I think the Vision for this plan is not clear or what we want from it ,Since we say this is going to be back bone of PAF with no other plan in sight for next 5 years for induction any platform ,F17B was the best bet PAF can do with added goodies like growler / Dedicated Air support or any thing else seems fit with doctrine but we dont need dual seater but F16 we need Dual seater (Current deal of 6D and 2C) ,Seriously this is started to like criminal to say this plane is for export and with out understanding basic needs for customer . Never send a fighting pilot to do selling job this is going to happened

 

[aamerjamal]

To me PAF have no other options then to Induct Dual Seater, WHY?
Simply Because they are sole operator and responsible to train all the initial customer, PAF trainers have to learn in and out of B version before export.
So Initial 5-10 B version must be inducted in PAF.

 

[baqai]

why can't they utilize the dual seater in role of something like Tornado? the RIO takes the task of going through radar and filtering out the stuff while the pilot does the flying and shooting? i am quiet sure there are other uses for a dual seater than a senior pilot yawning and yelling at the student pilot thinking about his evening cup of tea ....

 

[Irfan Baloch]

To me PAF have no other options then to Induct Dual Seater, WHY?
Simply Because they are sole operator and responsible to train all the initial customer, PAF trainers have to learn in and out of B version before export.
So Initial 5-10 B version must be inducted in PAF.

I mean how the hell will we be able to sell the 2 seater without even trying it for ourselves? are we expecting to throw it to customers and let them figure that out ? for the sake of PAF and this program I pray the things are not as dumb and ridiculous as I am suggesting.

I wish this obvious point is understood to the Jf-17 decision makers.
what a blunder they are making by insisting that J-17B will be export only
why not allow the trainers to provide feedback about its usability to PAF? they have clearly lost the plot or are withholding some information which we cant understand or comprehend

 

[Zahoor Raja-Jani]

I mean how the hell will we be able to sell the 2 seater without even trying it for ourselves? are we expecting to throw it to customers and let them figure that out ? for the sake of PAF and this program I pray the things are not as dumb and ridiculous as I am suggesting.

I wish this obvious point is understood to the Jf-17 decision makers.
what a blunder they are making by insisting that J-17B will be export only
why not allow the trainers to provide feedback about its usability to PAF? they have clearly lost the plot or are withholding some information which we cant understand or comprehend

JF17B's capabilities would be 50% less as compared to single seater so initially they decided to start production without dual seat but customers want dual seater also but we don't need the dual seater.

 

[volatile]

JF17B's capabilities would be 50% less as compared to single seater so initially they decided to start production without dual seat but customers want dual seater also but we don't need the dual seater.

Dual seat why we dont need it ,I dont see any issue inducting a platform which has similar avionics ,engine ,air frame components only two seats ,regarding capability there is going to be a dorsal spine in the dual seat for additional fuel+ gadgets ,so dual seat is going to be quite formidable ,Why we dont need it I cant answer this since there isnt any single fuel we have tried on . F17B deserves a case study (Blunder Thunder B)