Pakistan was created on the basis of group nationalism and not religion

[Shehzad_Fazal]

Pakistan was created because Jinnah and muslim league felt muslims in India will never get their rights and they will not have any kind of representation in the Indian state

 

[TheStrantrunCurve]

Sure go on and write something about India, if that makes Pakistan a better nation, I have no problems.

Dude you are heavily into Zaid Hamid like conspiracy theories which I can see, so Im not even sure if I should continue this debate. Pakistan has used terrorism as a state policy not India. Your opinion can differ but the WOT is in Pakistan not India.

Pakistanis will never understand India, India is not a nation like Pakistan. India is so diverse that it functions like a the many body parts that make up a human body. Each part is independent yet dependent on the larger self. India's diversity is its strength. India has grown through many wars, economic downfalls and domestic problems but never was the essence of India questioned. You can go around with the usual Pakistani rant over poverty but no one can deny that India today is an emerging world power. Yes we are not a China sized economy but our model is different and we are proud of India's achievements. We are the fourth largest economy in the world so we arnt that far back.Even while be surrounded by rouge nations, India has maintained a strong democracy and has managed to set an example to the world in how to live in religious harmony.

If you are comparing India with China, please also compare yourself with nations much smaller than you who are ages ahead of you. Even Bangladesh today is much better off that Pakistan, if that does not open your eyes then I dont know what will.


How has Kashmir been a cultural and religious part of Pakistan ? Are you saying just because of a muslim majority Kashmir should be with Pakistan ? Then your logic is wrong and I cant help it. Geographically ? What is that ?



Well its good for India if Pakistan continues to chase Kashmir as eventually it will be consumed by it. Whatever argument you give me in regards to Kashmir does not make a difference as just remember that Pakistan is taking on the giant who has enough resource to keep this proxy war going for decades. As you said that India is destabilizing Pakistan from the inside. Well the fact is that India sheer size makes it impossible for Pakistan to affect India but India little prod in even one of Pakistan's provinces has huge ramifications on the country. So my advise will be to stop living these dreams and work on the betterment of your own people.

Most of what you wrote is hogwash
I don’t listen to zaid hamid since I don’t live in Pakistan. It is India which started terrorism in South Asia, In General Menakshaw memoir he wrote 80,000 Bengalis were trained to fight Pakistan army and spread destruction, chaos, looting, rape and all kinds of wrongdoing, is this not terrorism. Pakistani army fought back and many mukti bahini killed some went back to India, Then India started its media propaganda that Pakistan army is committing genocide of Bengalis, Indian army enters East Pakistan when everything is over, Pakistani army is exhausted fighting insurgency for 9 months and India declares victory.
If I was an Indian I would consider this victory worse than a defeat because you used terrorism to defeat us.

India was emboldened by its victory it applied the same tactic to Sri Lanka to divide the country on ethnic lines by creating LTTE which Lanka with help of Pakistan and china defeated.

Indian supported Afghani and balochi terrorists while sitting in the lap of Soviets in 1970’s in Afghanistan. Is this not terrorism.
How is Pakistan doing terrorism in Kashmir when Kashmir not a part of India, Kashmir is a disputed territory not an Indian territory and it is only India which is inviting terrorism by not honouring UN resolution?
India has not grown through many wars, it has invited all the wars upon itself, you don’t see everyday a country which has had wars with all its neighbouring countries, and how can India survive by making all its neighbouring countries its enemies.

Yes you are the fourth largest economy but what’s the point of boasting about your economy when common person in India cant have a decent living, half the population of Delhi, Mumbai and Calcutta lives on footpath, except few cities where construction is going on the rest of India looks the same as it was during the British raj

Now this is where you are wrong again. I feel sorry for you people, India media portrays India is a superpower while all the neighbouring countries are failed sates, The horrid display of superpower India was visible before our eyes during commonwealth games, I am not writing statistics about poverty, minority killings, female infanticide, destructions of mosques, gurudwaras, and churches.

India is not a democracy all its laws are discriminatory towards is minority, it is Hindu country.

If you are comparing India with China, please also compare yourself with nations much smaller than you who are ages ahead of you. Even Bangladesh today is much better off that Pakistan, if that does not open your eyes then I don’t know what will.

Bangladesh is about the size of Pakistan we both have similar number of people.

How has Kashmir been a cultural and religious part of Pakistan ? Are you saying just because of a Muslim majority Kashmir should be with Pakistan ? Then your logic is wrong and I can’t help it. Geographically ? What is that ?

Kasmiris are closer to Pakistanis than they are to Indians
Geographically based around Indus River and its tributaries
Linguistically Indo-Iranian
Culturally a blend of Muslim and Indo-Iranian roots
Followers of the religion of Islam

We brought Islam to Kashmir, Shah mir from Swat Pakistan brought Islam to Kashmir, Shah mir created a Muslim kingdom and it is known as golden age of Kashmir. The two routes to Kashmir were through Pakistan one was gudaspur and other one is which Mountbatten gave it to India despite being a Muslim majority of gudaspur district.

ell the fact is that India sheer size makes it impossible for Pakistan to affect India but India little prod in even one of Pakistan's provinces has huge ramifications on the country. So my advise will be to stop living these dreams and work on the betterment of your own people.

It’s something big coming from an Indian because in almost all the battles Hindus outnumbered Muslims, Let me remind you again until few centuries ago few thousands Muslims were holding million of Hindus together for centuries. Ghauris defeated army twice its size, Ahmed shah also defeated army twice its size, Babur defeated army of 5 times its size,, in 1947 Pakistan with 5000 Muslims tribesmen liberated half the Kashmir and gave away some of it to china from 50,000 indian army.

Don’t forget by 1832 a few thousand Britons had been able to establish effective dominion over india with nearly 200 million people.

 

[justanobserver]

It’s something big coming from an Indian because in almost all the battles Hindus outnumbered Muslims, Let me remind you again until few centuries few thousands Muslims were holding million of Hindus together for centuries. Ghauris defeated army twice its size, Ahmed shah also defeated army twice its size, Babur defeated army of 5 times its size,, in 1947 Pakistan with 5000 Muslims tribesmen liberated half the Kashmir and gave away some of it to china from 50,000 indian army.

Don’t forget by 1832 a few thousand Britons had been able to establish effective dominion over india with nearly 200 million people.

The irony is that Ghauris, Abdalis and Qasims defeated/killed/raped the people which currently reside in the nation of Pakistan.

 

[Leader]

I would not know about Pakistan text books.

Are you sure that the personalities I have quoted who are internationally recognised are ridiculous in their analysis.

I have not given the link to Pervez Hoodbhoy. He too has not taken the Pakistani education to be very correct in outlook.

But then who am I to comment, you know better.

probably you are just picking up the few odd opinions. history is never with a single or definite opinion, you that very well. you guys picked up that suits you, we picked up what suits us, definitely if we ask a Dalit he would tell a different story about hindus.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Not odd really.

They are official Reports that were commissioned.

 

[TheStrantrunCurve]

The irony is that Ghauris, Abdalis and Qasims defeated/killed/raped the people which currently reside in the nation of Pakistan.

Sir
I request you to post a credible source which says qasims abdalis raped the people which currently reside in the nation of Pakistan.

 

[Leader]

Pakistan was created because Jinnah and muslim league felt muslims in India will never get their rights and they will not have any kind of representation in the Indian state

that very fact was admitted by Jaswand singh...look what they did with him !! TTT can you write in your text books these as facts?

 

[Leader]

Not odd really.

They are official Reports that were commissioned.

Yes, true but the people who made the reports dont include Safdar Mehmood? why doesnt he know History?would they not like to know his viewS?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Pakistan was created because Jinnah and muslim league felt muslims in India will never get their rights and they will not have any kind of representation in the Indian state

Just to let you know Non-muslims Indians influenced and motivated Jinnah's early political career such as Freemasons Dadabhai Naoroji and Sir Pherozeshah Mehta.
As for Muslim League. It was started by Aga Khan yet another Freemason.

 

[Nalwa]

Sir
I request you to post a credible source which says qasims abdalis raped the people which currently reside in the nation of Pakistan.

That is not very hard to fathom, is it? To everybody west of the Khyber, India started with the plains beyond Indus. A majority of the area overrun by the Abdalis and Ghauris of the world was current day Pakistan. The looting, raping and pillaging was a part and parcel of every invasion, not necessarily bounded by religion. All invaders indulged in it irrespective of their faith. A Hindu invader wouldn't spare a Hndu and a Muslim wouldn't do any favors to a Muslim. Unless you are trying to say that the population of current day Pakistan Punjab has changed drastically in the 250 years since the invasions, it can be safely assumed that the very ancestors of the people christening these missiles suffered at the hands of these perceived heroes.

 

[desiman]

Most of what you wrote is hogwash
I don’t listen to zaid hamid since I don’t live in Pakistan. It is India which started terrorism in South Asia, In General Menakshaw memoir he wrote 80,000 Bengalis were trained to fight Pakistan army and spread destruction, chaos, looting, rape and all kinds of wrongdoing, is this not terrorism. Pakistani army fought back and many mukti bahini but went back to India, Then India started its media propaganda that Pakistan army is committing genocide of Bengalis, Indian army enters East Pakistan when everything is over, Pakistani army is exhausted fighting insurgency for 9 months and India declares victory.
If I was an Indian I would consider this victory worse than a defeat because you used terrorism to defeat us.

India was emboldened by its victory it applied the same tactic to Sri Lanka to divide the country on ethnic lines by creating LTTE which Lanka with help of Pakistan and china defeated.

Indian supported Afghani and balochi terrorists while sitting in the lap of Soviets in 1970’s in Afghanistan. Is this not terrorism.
How is Pakistan doing terrorism in Kashmir when Kashmir a part of India, Kashmir is a disputed territory not an Indian territory and it is only India which is inviting terrorism by not honouring UN resolution?
India has not grown through many wars, it has invited all the wars upon itself, you don’t seen everyday a country which has had wars with all its neighbouring countries, and how can India survive by making all its neighbouring countries its enemies.

Yes you are the fourth largest economy but what’s the point of boasting about your economy when common person in India cant have a decent living, half the population of Delhi, Mumbai and Calcutta lives on footpath, except few cities where construction is going on the rest of India looks the same as it was during the British raj

Now this is where you are wrong again. I feel sorry for you people, India media portrays India is a superpower while all the neighbouring countries are failed sates, The horrid display of superpower India was visible before our eyes during commonwealth games, I am not writing statistics about poverty, minority killings, female infanticide, destructions of mosques, gurudwaras, and churches.

India is not a democracy all its laws are discriminatory towards is minority, it is Hindu country.


Bangladesh is about the size of Pakistan we both have similar number of people.



Kasmiris are closer to Pakistanis than they are to Indians
Geographically based around Indus River and its tributaries
Linguistically Indo-Iranian
Culturally a blend of Muslim and Indo-Iranian roots
Followers of the religion of Islam

We brought Islam to Kashmir, Shah mir from Swat Pakistan brought Islam to Kashmir, Shah mir created a Muslim kingdom and it is known as golden age of Kashmir. The two routes to Kashmir were through Pakistan one was gudaspur and other one is which Mountbatten gave it to India despite being a Muslim majority of gudaspur district.


It’s something big coming from an Indian because in almost all the battles Hindus outnumbered Muslims, Let me remind you again until few centuries ago few thousands Muslims were holding million of Hindus together for centuries. Ghauris defeated army twice its size, Ahmed shah also defeated army twice its size, Babur defeated army of 5 times its size,, in 1947 Pakistan with 5000 Muslims tribesmen liberated half the Kashmir and gave away some of it to china from 50,000 indian army.

Don’t forget by 1832 a few thousand Britons had been able to establish effective dominion over india with nearly 200 million people.

You are clearly overfed on Anti-India jargon in Pakistan, as I said before I cannot argue with someone who cant see the truth even when it looks them in the eye. If as per you India is still a beggar then I guess that makes Pakistan better than us. In regards to Kashmir, sure continue with what your doing, we will see how long that will last as well. I really dont know you relate the Mughal to Pakistanis, Islam is not a Pakistani religion nor does Pakistan have any right over it. Anyways im wasting my time, even God cant help Pakistan now. With people so lost in their India hate, there is little anyone can do.

 

[justanobserver]

Sir
I request you to post a credible source which says qasims abdalis raped the people which currently reside in the nation of Pakistan.

Sure

These (Sindh & Punjab) were the parts of the Indian subcontinent under the control of Abdali and Qasim respectively. So you can guess who the people that were subjugated

As for killings/slaughter

The first Moslem attack was a passing raid upon Multan, in the western Punjab (664 A.D.) Similar raids occurred at the convenience of the invaders during the next three centuries, with the result that the established themselves in the Indus valley about the same time that their Arab co-religionists in the West were fighting the battle of Tours (732 A.D.) for the mastery of Europe. But the real Moslem conquest of India did not come till the turn of the first millennium after Christ.

In the year 997 a Turkish chieftain by the name of Mahmud became sultan of the little state of Ghazni, in eastern Afghanistan. Mahmud
knew that his throne was young and poor, and saw that India, across the border, was old and rich; the conclusion was obvious. Pretending a
holy zeal for destroying Hindu idolatry, he swept across the frontier with a force inspired by a pious aspiration for booty.

From Will Durrant's "The Story of Civilization"

Will Durant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nalwa]

Most of what you wrote is hogwash
I don’t listen to zaid hamid since I don’t live in Pakistan. It is India which started terrorism in South Asia, In General Menakshaw memoir he wrote 80,000 Bengalis were trained to fight Pakistan army and spread destruction, chaos, looting, rape and all kinds of wrongdoing, is this not terrorism. Pakistani army fought back and many mukti bahini killed some went back to India, Then India started its media propaganda that Pakistan army is committing genocide of Bengalis, Indian army enters East Pakistan when everything is over, Pakistani army is exhausted fighting insurgency for 9 months and India declares victory.
If I was an Indian I would consider this victory worse than a defeat because you used terrorism to defeat us.

India was emboldened by its victory it applied the same tactic to Sri Lanka to divide the country on ethnic lines by creating LTTE which Lanka with help of Pakistan and china defeated.

Indian supported Afghani and balochi terrorists while sitting in the lap of Soviets in 1970’s in Afghanistan. Is this not terrorism.
How is Pakistan doing terrorism in Kashmir when Kashmir not a part of India, Kashmir is a disputed territory not an Indian territory and it is only India which is inviting terrorism by not honouring UN resolution?
India has not grown through many wars, it has invited all the wars upon itself, you don’t see everyday a country which has had wars with all its neighbouring countries, and how can India survive by making all its neighbouring countries its enemies.

Yes you are the fourth largest economy but what’s the point of boasting about your economy when common person in India cant have a decent living, half the population of Delhi, Mumbai and Calcutta lives on footpath, except few cities where construction is going on the rest of India looks the same as it was during the British raj

Now this is where you are wrong again. I feel sorry for you people, India media portrays India is a superpower while all the neighbouring countries are failed sates, The horrid display of superpower India was visible before our eyes during commonwealth games, I am not writing statistics about poverty, minority killings, female infanticide, destructions of mosques, gurudwaras, and churches.

India is not a democracy all its laws are discriminatory towards is minority, it is Hindu country.


Bangladesh is about the size of Pakistan we both have similar number of people.



Kasmiris are closer to Pakistanis than they are to Indians
Geographically based around Indus River and its tributaries
Linguistically Indo-Iranian
Culturally a blend of Muslim and Indo-Iranian roots
Followers of the religion of Islam

We brought Islam to Kashmir, Shah mir from Swat Pakistan brought Islam to Kashmir, Shah mir created a Muslim kingdom and it is known as golden age of Kashmir. The two routes to Kashmir were through Pakistan one was gudaspur and other one is which Mountbatten gave it to India despite being a Muslim majority of gudaspur district.


It’s something big coming from an Indian because in almost all the battles Hindus outnumbered Muslims, Let me remind you again until few centuries ago few thousands Muslims were holding million of Hindus together for centuries. Ghauris defeated army twice its size, Ahmed shah also defeated army twice its size, Babur defeated army of 5 times its size,, in 1947 Pakistan with 5000 Muslims tribesmen liberated half the Kashmir and gave away some of it to china from 50,000 indian army.

Don’t forget by 1832 a few thousand Britons had been able to establish effective dominion over india with nearly 200 million people.

You clearly need a lot of history lessons. Please do everybody a favor and trawl through past debates on similar threads with history related topics. Its no point regurgitating all the arguments again and again.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Sure

These (Sindh & Punjab) were the parts of the Indian subcontinent under the control of Abdali and Qasim respectively. So you can guess who the people that were subjugated

As for killings/slaughter






From Will Durrant's "The Story of Civilization"

Will Durant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would expect Rape and other crimes in mass scale by later muslim empire but defiantly not by Early Caliphs since it is strictly forbidden in islam to commit such crimes. Indans Hindus and western propagandists love reinventing history to defame Islam in anyway possible.

 

[TheStrantrunCurve]

That is not very hard to fathom, is it? To everybody west of the Khyber, India started with the plains beyond Indus. A majority of the area overrun by the Abdalis and Ghauris of the world was current day Pakistan. The looting, raping and pillaging was a part and parcel of every invasion, not necessarily bounded by religion. All invaders indulged in it irrespective of their faith. A Hindu invader wouldn't spare a Hndu and a Muslim wouldn't do any favors to a Muslim. Unless you are trying to say that the population of current day Pakistan Punjab has changed drastically in the 250 years since the invasions, it can be safely assumed that the very ancestors of the people christening these missiles suffered at the hands of these perceived heroes.

Nalwa,
I disagree with your first part that India starts with the plains, India is a recent word let's use Hindustaan because the brits couldn't pronounce Hindustaan so they called the whole south asia as India instead.
All the muslims rulers be they ghauris, tughlaqs, Mughals, khiljis used hindustaan, No where is India used by south asians

Now how how does punjab becomes hindustaan. The punjab indentity is much older than hindustaani. The punjabi culture starts with indus valley civilization 5000 years ago while the hindustani culture arose around arose 1000 years.

I am dissapointed you being a punjabi is giving up your more superior identity over hindustaani identity.

The name hindustaan only became popular after Ghauris invasion
Note punjab was already occupied by Mamud Ghazni in 1000 AD and was never called Hindustaan. Punjab has been the frontier of Hindustaan but not the hindustaan proper. Of course different people throughout the last 10 centururies used the term Hindustan for different geographic region. Babur used the word hindustaan for whole south asia even pushtun areas but the fact remain half of pakistani punjab trace ancesrtry from middle east, central asia, such as sayyed, qureshi, Arrain, Awan, Ghakkhar, Khokkhar. It is only the rajput and Jats which can be called Indian.

I agree with you muslims invaders were also cruels to muslims as they were to hindus, Tamerlane exterminated quarter of muslim iran population.