Pakistan was created on the basis of group nationalism and not religion

[justanobserver]

It is getting confusing.

Some say it is the two nation theory and some bring in other historical and religious genesis.

You say it is an Islamic state governed by Sharia and Mr Jinnah stated that Pakistan was to be a secular state!

Or some try to make it a civilizational state by selective acceptance of history like this one:

No, history starts with the Indus Civilization, which encompasses all of Pakistan & a very small portion of Western parts of India.

What about the erstwhile East Pakistan? The Two Nation theory also incorporated the Indus Valley too right?

Anyways this is flawed because Pakistanis have no present connection to the Indus Valley civilization

 

[Developereo]

History goes back to the time of Baba Adam!

Or even to the Big Bang (if one subscribes to that theory).

That's a concession of defeat. Game Over.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Pakistanis embrace "Indian" heritage, or south Asian heritage, to avoid hurting sensibilities.
Our food is similar, our language is similar, our dress is similar, and many of our rituals are similar.
Even our genes are similar.

But it still does not invalidate the fact that Pakistan is a separate country.

I wonder if there is any similarity if one goes by the majority of the posts here.

For the sake of sanity, one should accept the majority view that nothing is similar.

Even Najma Sethi interview on Duniya TV was rubbished and so were the scholarly work of Salim, Hoodbhoy and others.

Therefore, one can only go by the scholarly posts that surface which claim authenticity as the Gospel Truth.

 

[53fd]

It is getting confusing.

Some say it is the two nation theory and some bring in other historical and religious genesis.

You say it is an Islamic state governed by Sharia and Mr Jinnah stated that Pakistan was to be a secular state!

I'll simplify it for you:

1. The 2 nation theory is valid

2. Deobandis opposed the creation of Pakistan, in fear of future oppression of the leftover Indian Muslims

3. Jinnah did not explicitly state an Islamic or secular state, he said that Pakistan was a state created where Muslims could live freely & practice their religion without any oppression. He also invited people from all religions to join Pakistan. Pakistan according to Jinnah would be a land ruled by Muslims, where non-Muslims would live freely in and live their way of life, & practice their religion.

4. The Pakistani government in the 1956 constitution of Pakistan (I believe) first called the nation the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", to counter potential ethnic separatist movements from Pakhtuns, Balochis, Sindhis and of course Bengalis. And the religious influence in Pakistani ideology is the bond that unites Pakistan's ethnic groups together that have nothing in common with each other. An "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" does not go against Jinnah's vision for Pakistan, as has been mentioned in 3).

 

[Developereo]

I wonder if there is any similarity if one goes by the majority of the posts here.

For the sake of sanity, one should accept the majority view that nothing is similar.

Even Najma Sethi interview on Duniya TV was rubbished and so were the scholarly work of Salim, Hoodbhoy and others.

Therefore, one can only go by the scholarly posts that surface which claim authenticity as the Gospel Truth.

One is free to believe whatever one wants.

It doesn't change the fact that Pakistanis and Indians can eat in each other's restaurants, understand each others' songs and dramas/movies, and shop in each others' clothing stores.

It also doesn't change the fact that we uphold different flags and stand on opposite sides of theborder.

The two sets of facts aren't incompatible.

 

[53fd]

What about the erstwhile East Pakistan? The Two Nation theory also incorporated the Indus Valley too right?

I don't know what you mean by this. But East Pakistan had no/zilch part of the Indus Valley Civilization, just like most parts of India (besides some Western parts of present day India) today are not part of the Indus Civilization. Btw, East Pakistan was not going to be part of Pakistan in the original plan laid out right before the partition of India, it was only at the last moment that Bangladesh joined with West Pakistan. Notice the letters of:

P: Punjab
A: Afghania (KPK + FATA)
K: Kashmir
I: Immigrant Muslims (Muhajirs)
S: Sindh
TAN: (BalochisTAN)

Anyways this is flawed because Pakistanis have no present connection to the Indus Valley civilization[/QUOTE]

All parts of Pakistan have connection to the Indus Valley Civilization. Ever heard of Moenje-Daro and Harrapa?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

One is free to believe whatever one wants.

It doesn't change the fact that Pakistanis and Indians can eat in each other's restaurants, understand each others' songs and dramas/movies, and shop in each others' clothing stores.

You are absolutely right on that.

And that is why I am taken aback at the animus displayed.

This much I know and that is that the real history cannot be changed or wished away.

I also know that history can be twisted to suit political and religious agenda and I am not only meaning in Pakistan alone.

I also know that beyond these narrow divides that are created by vested interests, there is much bon homie when they meet, be it in India or in Pakistan or on neutral grounds.

History cannot be changed, the status quo cannot be changed, so, why this animus?

 

[EjazR]

@Omar1984,

Even the letters you quoted is talking more about redistribution of staes based on religious majority and minority. No mention of sepratism or Pakistan in any of the letters although the Pakistan scheme had been articulated in 1933.

Moreover, there is contention on the 1937 letters as these were released by the Muslim League during the 1946 elections. Alleged to use the stature of Allama Iqbal to influence the elections.

Here is a scanned copy of Allama Iqbal's letter to the editor on the Pakistan scheme on the 1930 speech that you keep quoting again and again for proof about the North West Indian states.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I don't know what you mean by this. But East Pakistan had no/zilch part of the Indus Valley Civilization, just like most parts of India (besides some Western parts of present day India) today are not part of the Indus Civilization. Btw, East Pakistan was not going to be part of Pakistan in the original plan laid out right before the partition of India, it was only at the last moment that Bangladesh joined with West Pakistan. Notice the letters of:

P: Punjab
A: Afghania (KPK + FATA)
K: Kashmir
I: Immigrant Muslims (Muhajirs)
S: Sindh
TAN: (BalochisTAN)

Anyways this is flawed because Pakistanis have no present connection to the Indus Valley civilization

All parts of Pakistan have connection to the Indus Valley Civilization. Ever heard of Moenje-Daro and Harrapa?[/QUOTE]

If by slogans a country can be created, so be it!

Mohenjodaro and harappa are the one that were excavated. Heard of Dwarka?

If East Pakistan was not in the scheme of things, why was it taken and then done what was done?

 

[53fd]

I wonder if there is any similarity if one goes by the majority of the posts here.

For the sake of sanity, one should accept the majority view that nothing is similar.

Even Najma Sethi interview on Duniya TV was rubbished and so were the scholarly work of Salim, Hoodbhoy and others.

Therefore, one can only go by the scholarly posts that surface which claim authenticity as the Gospel Truth.

You also seem to forget that Pakistan brings people from the Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA) & the Bugti tribes of national TV, & lets them openly air their views on Azad Balochistan on talk shows. Pakistan lets Hoodbhoy, Rashid, Sethi come on national TV, & openly air their views against Pakistan's nuclear program, against Pakistan's stance on Kashmir, against Pakistan in the 1971 war, against Pakistan for allegedly supporting the Afghan Taliban (without providing any proof), without getting charged on any level by Pakistan. India charged Arundhati Roy & Shah Gilani from Kashmir on sedition charges for saying "Kashmir is not an integral part of India".

 

[justanobserver]

I don't know what you mean by this. But East Pakistan had no/zilch part of the Indus Valley Civilization, just like most parts of India (besides some Western parts of present day India) today are not part of the Indus Civilization. Btw, East Pakistan was not going to be part of Pakistan in the original plan laid out right before the partition of India, it was only at the last moment that Bangladesh joined with West Pakistan. Notice the letters of:

By connection I meant an actual connection not mere geography. Language, beliefs, traditions, culture. In terms of that present day Bangladesh has more to do with the Indus Valley than Pakistan

P: Punjab
A: Afghania (KPK + FATA)
K: Kashmir
I: Immigrant Muslims (Muhajirs)
S: Sindh
TAN: (BalochisTAN)

'I' for immigrant Muslims, TAN= Balochistan Very cute. But i'll go with "The Land of the Pure"

 

[53fd]

All parts of Pakistan have connection to the Indus Valley Civilization. Ever heard of Moenje-Daro and Harrapa?

If by slogans a country can be created, so be it!

Mohenjodaro and harappa are the one that were excavated. Heard of Dwarka?

If East Pakistan was not in the scheme of things, why was it taken and then done what was done?

It was not initially part of Pakistan's master plan, but it joined Pakistan very late, at the very last moment. And of course, it turned out to be a huge mistake.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

@Omar1984,

Even the letters you quoted is talking more about redistribution of staes based on religious majority and minority. No mention of sepratism or Pakistan in any of the letters although the Pakistan scheme had been articulated in 1933.

Moreover, there is contention on the 1937 letters as these were released by the Muslim League during the 1946 elections. Alleged to use the stature of Allama Iqbal to influence the elections.

Here is a scanned copy of Allama Iqbal's letter to the editor on the Pakistan scheme on the 1930 speech that you keep quoting again and again for proof about the North West Indian states.

Abou ben adhem (or EjazR) may your tribe increase!

Abou Ben Adhem

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:

Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."

"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."

The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!

-- James Leigh Hunt

 

[53fd]

By connection I meant an actual connection not mere geography. Language, beliefs, traditions, culture. In terms of that present day Bangladesh has more to do with the Indus Valley than Pakistan

Can you explain how, when none of the Indus Valley Civilization encompasses present day Bangladesh?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

bilalhaider

Why I = Immigrants?

It should have been Mohajirs!

or M.