Pakistan-US joint air exercise - Falcon Talon III

[Aamir Hussain]

It is possible to admire someone without putting your own country down to play to the galleries.

And he is not fully correct, esp about 1971. India had absolutely no plan to occupy large parts of West Pakistan.

Please read the declassified documents pertaining to Henry Kissinger and the State Department Papers.

 

[nahtanbob]

The only thing that interested me when I read about this exercise was the dysfunctional nature of policy within the US government. On one hand, they have curtailed all kinds of govt-to-govt contacts, cut funding for mutually beneficial programs, and even completely removed Pakistan from IMET, their military educational training program. Pakistan has also been removed from programs at the US Naval War College, Naval Staff College etc. And yet, now they see it fit to have a major air force exercise with the supposedly non-ally. I found that funny and am conflicted at some level as to whether PAF should have agreed to it. Yes, there are things we can learn from this exercise, as with any other exercise, yet when taken with the larger dynamic at work, perhaps we should have pushed back on this exercise and let the Pentagon and the Defense Dept sweat it out with the WH and the administration.

under trump a lot of the policy making is dysfunctional
one might call it unpredictable

 

[Darwin]

Please read the declassified documents pertaining to Henry Kissinger and the State Department Papers.

Henry kissinger was a cold War hawk who was deadly against India. He carries no value. What I am telling you is from the actual ground. Can't go into details. India's invasion planning was only for East Pakistan, and to hold in the west.
What most pakistanis and others don't understand is what would be the end game of occupying Pakistan by India ? What do you with 200 m pakistanis if hypothetically we invade Pakistan ?

 

[Raider 21]

The voice of truth.

If an Indian spoke so frankly about Indian policies or about Indian leaders, he (or she) would immediately be pilloried by other patriotic Indians who invented patriotism.

My respect, Sir.

"You don't have to agree with your politicians to be a patriot..."

 

[araz]

for India USA is the most powerful hedge against China. Add in a hostile Pakistan. USA looks even more attractive partner. It helps India that USA and Pakistan do not see eye on eye on a lot of issues

Well heaven help you if you are rleying on US as a hedge against China. My friend NO ONE repeat NO ONE is a hedge against another super power. You either have the balls to stand up and fight or make peace. In the Indo China perspective it is far better for India to make friends than to invite the irk of the Chinese. Believe me if sanity were to prevail there would be one block with China, Russia, India pakistan and Bangladesh with the surrounding smaller states acting as trading partners. This is the vision of safety and sanity rather than finding a hedge against this or that.
A

Henry kissinger was a cold War hawk who was deadly against India. He carries no value. What I am telling you is from the actual ground. Can't go into details. India's invasion planning was only for East Pakistan, and to hold in the west.
What most pakistanis and others don't understand is what would be the end game of occupying Pakistan by India ? What do you with 200 m pakistanis if hypothetically we invade Pakistan ?

A very confused post. I really am struggling to understand what you are trying to portray. Bangladesh was a stupidity of the highest order and a treachery on the part of Pakistani Higher ups. It was handed over to India on a silver platter by our sheer stupidity.
The one thing you must understand about ALL superpowers bar none is they look after their own interests, not yours. They will sit with you if you serve their interests and spit at you as soon as those interests are served. Kissinger or anyone else who is a part of the juggernaut will only serve and forward US interests. US minnions in far away lands are mere pawns to be played and sacrificed. It is time to say good bye to this dependence and look after your own national interests. Your interests do not lie in fighting but in making peace. At this juncture what anyone respects is Money as it is power in countries with land mass unless you have insignificant land mass and no national awareness. You as a nation will not make money unless there is peace in your viscinity. If you take your coloured glasses off this region has enough resources and industry to make a couple of trillion dollars worth of industrial goods and sell on. But this will happen if we have peace.
Look at where bangladesh has risen from and where it has reached keeping a low defensive profile.Their polity is still not matured but pakistani business men are investing in bangladesh. AHHHH if only India could see beyond its petty hatred and bigotry!!
A

 

[Darwin]

Well heaven help you if you are rleying on US as a hedge against China. My friend NO ONE repeat NO ONE is a hedge against another super power. You either have the balls to stand up and fight or make peace. In the Indo China perspective it is far better for India to make friends than to invite the irk of the Chinese. Believe me if sanity were to prevail there would be one block with China, Russia, India pakistan and Bangladesh with the surrounding smaller states acting as trading partners. This is the vision of safety and sanity rather than finding a hedge against this or that.
A


A very confused post. I really am struggling to understand what you are trying to portray. Bangladesh was a stupidity of the highest order and a treachery on the part of Pakistani Higher ups. It was handed over to India on a silver platter by our sheer stupidity.
The one thing you must understand about ALL superpowers bar none is they look after their own interests, not yours. They will sit with you if you serve their interests and spit at you as soon as those interests are served. Kissinger or anyone else who is a part of the juggernaut will only serve and forward US interests. US minnions in far away lands are mere pawns to be played and sacrificed. It is time to say good bye to this dependence and look after your own national interests. Your interests do not lie in fighting but in making peace. At this juncture what anyone respects is Money as it is power in countries with land mass unless you have insignificant land mass and no national awareness. You as a nation will not make money unless there is peace in your viscinity. If you take your coloured glasses off this region has enough resources and industry to make a couple of trillion dollars worth of industrial goods and sell on. But this will happen if we have peace.
Look at where bangladesh has risen from and where it has reached keeping a low defensive profile.Their polity is still not matured but pakistani business men are investing in bangladesh. AHHHH if only India could see beyond its petty hatred and bigotry!!
A

Just saying that India had and has no interest in occupying Pakistan. A favourite bogey here. All this defence spending is a waste on both sides.
Clear as crystal.

 

[VCheng]

AHHHH if only India could see beyond its petty hatred and bigotry!

Sir, wouldn't that statement work both ways?

 

[krash]

To the same effect you conduct exercise in the first place. To the second effect that it will give a good PR to a plane that we are looking to export.

Not by a long shot. The MKIs got a pretty heavy dose of negative PR after that Red Flag, air force personnel went as far as saying that the Bison was a better A2A instrument that it.

And you conduct exercises to learn and streamline interoperability. That does not happen when you don't know what is happening, can't communicate with the rest and are just running around the whole exercise like headless chickens. Again, case in point MKIs at Red Flag.

Those leaks can be taken with a pinch of salt. There are other leaks where Google gives alot of links including those where Indians did not lose to a single engagements but we all know the authenticity of such claims. Real results hardly ever make it to the public domain which is why i asked you for the basis of your claim.

The video given to you is the leaked debriefing of the USAF at Red Flag. Does not get more official than that.

Anyway lets stick to the topic shall we.

Of course.

 

[araz]

Sir, wouldn't that statement work both ways?

I think the Pak intentions are pretty clear and have been since early 2 K. India is the one which is playing hard to get and the political compulsions are understandable.
A

 

[VCheng]

I think the Pak intentions are pretty clear and have been since early 2 K. India is the one which is playing hard to get and the political compulsions are understandable.
A

Of course, one must recognize that one would get a very different picture if the view from the other side is taken at par as well. One would also expect both sides to be able to negotiate their respective viewpoints in pursuit of respective national interests according to the principles of international geopolitics if there is any progress to be made.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Henry kissinger was a cold War hawk who was deadly against India. He carries no value. What I am telling you is from the actual ground. Can't go into details. India's invasion planning was only for East Pakistan, and to hold in the west.
What most pakistanis and others don't understand is what would be the end game of occupying Pakistan by India ? What do you with 200 m pakistanis if hypothetically we invade Pakistan ?

I was just quoting you from "Declassified" US Department Papers. What was on the ground and what was being publicly or privately discussed by the Indian leadership at that time, are two different things.

As far as 200 million Pakistanis.....then let go of the long standing positions and make amends and peace from both ends!!! You for one know that India would not be able to handle 200 million Pakis...then why arm yourselves to the teeth?? And please I don't expect the "China" card to be played....they would not expect or would want to to handle 1.2 billion Indians nor India would want to tackle 1.6 Billion Chinese.

So as the longest running democracy in the region, India should take the first step and step up to the role that a country of 1.2 Billion should play in the region...be bold, bring peace to the region by extending a hand of friendship to all neighbors. Disarm the critiques of Hindutva and show to the whole world what is the true legacy of Gandhi!!!!! Unless India has hegemonic designs of its own

 

[IceCold]

Agreed. The only issue at the moment is India's support to terrorism in Kashmir and Pakistan. India stops this official support and its all lovey dovey.

Here i have fixed the above for you.
PS You dont even get to speak about Afghanistan when you are not even a stake holder, dont share a border with them, and your only purpose is to foment trouble in Pakistan. We on the other hand have a shared border with them and continue to host 2 million Afghans. So yeah we get to have a say in Afghanistan irrespective of what you or your daddy US thinks.

 

[Darwin]

Here i have fixed the above for you.
PS You dont even get to speak about Afghanistan when you are not even a stake holder, dont share a border with them, and your only purpose is to foment trouble in Pakistan. We on the other hand have a shared border with them and continue to host 2 million Afghans. So yeah we get to have a say in Afghanistan irrespective of what you or your daddy US thinks.

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam - means the whole world is a family. India and Afghans are esp connected since time infitum. Read kabuliwallah written in 1892 , beautiful story or see the movie.

 

[IceCold]

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam - means the whole world is a family. India and Afghans are esp connected since time infitum. Read kabuliwallah written in 1892 , beautiful story or see the movie.

You can keep those for the Bollywood fans. In the real world not body gives a ****.

 

[Darwin]

You can keep those for the Bollywood fans. In the real world not body gives a ****.

OK. But some open minded youngsters might enjoy this masterpiece from tagore.